EVE General Discussion

other things players in wormholes are doing:

collapsing wormholes that put bad people next door to them so that they don't have to be subjected to PvP

Sure they would. They would just have to learn to make use of whatever intel gathering tools were implemented to cover (roughly) the same thing.

Life in w-space is entirely possible even without such tools; add them in for k-space and it should be very liveable.

By the way, you do know that there's an “edit“ button, right? You don't have to create a new reply any time you want to amend your post…


Anyway, the simple fact of the matter remains: AFK cloaking is created and perpetuated by local. As long as local remains as an intel tool, AFK cloaking must remain as the only counter to that mechanic — it is currently the only way to disrupt and subvert the free intel that local provides. If AFK cloaking was removed, something else — probably something much worse — would have to be implemented to do the same thing, and which would cause the same whines.

Too bad that I'm not saying they should remove local. I'm saying they should fix it so that it is no longer an intel tool. Then they should implement actual intel tools that you need to actively use, interpret, and correlate with other information sources to get the intel you need (and more, if you put enough effort into it).

…and you're quoting me… why, exactly?

It doesn't particularly answer the question or explain what those two lines have to do with the post you quoted.

…so, you were quoting me… why, exactly?

Why are those the only options? Also, how would it be able to tip the balance in favour of the bomber any more than it already is?

But that's not all it would have to be. Hell, it wouldn't even have to be that. How about, for instance, a passive sensor that detects scans? Weeds out the AFK:ers and warns you about active trackers. For bonus points, it could provide different feedback depending on signal strength: something narrow-band d-scanning you gives a beefier signal than a wide-band scan (you know he's looking for you, and not just anything in general); system scans sing a different tune depending on distance.

So no, those are not the only two options and outcomes.

…which is still less one-sided than it already is. As for the map, it's free, but it's also very inaccurate as far as giving you the intel you need. It is far from real-time; it doesn't tell you what (much less who) is or was there — just that something triggered a counter in the last n minutes; and it requires general area knowledge and interpretation. It's actually a very good example of the fuzziness that all the tools should have — on their own they're pretty useless, but you can add value by combining them with completely different tools telling you completely different things.

Because it's no different than what's already available in terms of how the cloaker can find his targets, but it is vastly different in how well the cloaker know what's around him and what's waiting for him. Target acquisition is no easier (and, sure, no harder either), but uncertainty about the combat zone is way up. End result: less one-sided than right now now, since he currently finds his targets just as easily and has better situational awareness to boot.

So it doesn't favour you at all, you mean, because I'm certainly not implying that it does. What I'm flat-ou saying (rather than just implying), though, is that AFK cloaking disfavours the inhabitants of a system by disrupting and subverting their intel tool and acts as a mild form of psychological warfare. This is a good thing, because it is the only kind of counter there is to local at the moment.

Yes…? And…? Again I have to ask what this is in response to?

Are you offering this as a counter to “there is no other counter to local”? If so, you missed the point. No, it's not — local is still there and still provides 100% accurate intel. What AFK cloaking does is make that intel less valuable because it feeds noise into the system. That's why it needs to exist for as long as local exists (in its current incarnation).

It's only sweet irony that the same bad mechanic that provides this over-abundance of information is also the source of the one tactic that mitigates the value of that information.

Yes, so how is local broken if the tools to make it less reliable exist?

I don't believe AFK cloaking is a problem at all, hell, it's a necessary tactic. Anybody can simply cloak in a system, but it loses its effectiveness when everyone realizes that your presence is benign. Actually decloaking once in a while to ruin somebody's day is what's needed to keep your presence from being ignored.

Yes, people do AFK cloak in our space, but imitation is the best form of flattery.

Because it should come pre-broken. Or, rather, it shouldn't be an intel tool to begin with. Instead, the intel collection should be some completely different tool with inherent flaws that mean you have to combine it with other sources. It shouldn't be a tool that, by default, is perfect, and which needs to be actively degraded — it should be a tool that, by default, is pretty bad, but which can be actively upgraded (or further deteriorated, if you're on the sneaking end) in a struggle for information superiority.

Yes. With the current implementation of perfect-intel local, it pretty much is. I would just much rather see it be turned into actual gameplay (on both sides of the fence).

It's quite surprising how CCP keeps modifying every game mechanic to have more interaction, i.e. the sleeper and incursion AI, the latest iteration of the probing system, the ideas they are mentioning for future mining changes, the (somewhat failed) planetary interaction, etc.

But when it comes to the local vs direction scan, there's never any discussion from CCP's side to make it more of an active mechanic. It always is the /shrugs "ok the passive intel tool is not great, but we have no alternative". Can't help but wonder if CCP has just given up on this and don't want to fix it at all.