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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Capitals in FW

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Crimper
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2012-08-02 20:27:22 UTC
Lowsec pirates will have caps, and nullsec junkies can jump in caps. Where is the logic that would restrict FW players from using caps?

The primary reason I enjoy FW is the

  • diversity of the play styles (1v1 or small gang warfare or multifaceted cap fights)
  • the varying ship types I can use (from T1 frigs to caps and supercaps)


I can still kill whatever else crosses my path in low sec including other caps and they can kill mine. There are a great many non-cap flying pilots, or new pilots to the game that are in FW but caps will not impact their ability to orbit a beacon, but restricting our ability to field caps, would significantly impact our ability to agress and defend against pirates.

Vordak Kallager wrote:
Mystical Might wrote:
Capitals are hardly overpowered, and can be easily countered with either your own capital fleet, or a strong subcapital force.

Capitals aren't the problem. Supercapitals are. Really the only thing that beats supercapitals are more supercapitals at this juncture, and its hard for any kind of FW entity (despite all being famously rich now) to compete with the #s and organization of 0.0 entities that can bring in a supercapital fleet from anywhere in EVE in a very short time frame.


A huge part of any successful op, is the quality of the intel. With respect to cap fights, while supercaps could be lurking one jump away or 5 jumps away or maybe not formed up at at all, having the knowledge when going into a fight will aid in your decision for your fleet comp or or at least lets you know when to gtfo. It could be considered a bonus escalation by some, or a hindrance to the unprepared. Besides, it's always afun to see what you can do to counter another challenging fleet, isn't it? Either way, it provides us with one more style of fighting.
Crimper
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2012-08-02 20:33:39 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
FW has always been one of the few places people could get a reasonable chance of daily small gang PVP. It has always been intended as a place for newer players and smaller/newer corps to get a start and never was intended to be a place for large corps to sit in idly forever because they don't want to take any risk.

I'm not for dumbing down the game, but things like Titians and large capitol fleets were never intended for FW. Groups like yourself & Sotf that have the ability to titian bridge at will are bad for the basic concept that is FW.


I'm sure your statement about taking risks was merely a poor attempt at a troll, however if not, you clearly have no clue because what you seem to missing Mutnin, is the fact that FW is only a part of what we do. It affords us another play-style and allows us to diversify.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#43 - 2012-08-02 20:40:11 UTC
Why can't we use capitals in HiSec?

I mean, "sandbox", right?

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-08-02 20:42:30 UTC
Thread has been cleaned of off topic and troll posts. Please stick to the actual topic of discussion and post responsibly, thank you.






Removed troll and off topic posts - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Amymuffmuff
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#45 - 2012-08-02 20:51:19 UTC
My post was classed as trolling?

I was very much on topic tyvm.

Guess i will have to repeat myself.

I think that caps should stay available in the warzone as they are a key part of all the available combat ships that can be used in space. I do like the ability to mix it up with a triage if your out numbered by the hostiles for example.

There are plenty of opportunities to remove yourself from capital warfare if you choose to by simply not engaging or forcing people to come to plexes if they want to fight you.

Also do like the fact that cyno jammers can and need to be killed by the enemy to be disabled. This would be better than a constant thing with full global effect anyway.

Editor for evenews24.com
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#46 - 2012-08-02 21:01:05 UTC
It just seems strategically sound that the various Spacenations would employ cynosaural jamming technology. Isn't controlling the engagement 90% of success in EVE?

As long as it's killable I see no problem.

(Also how come we can't have caps in HiSec?)

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#47 - 2012-08-02 21:01:34 UTC
Amymuffmuff wrote:
My post was classed as trolling?


I think it was deleted because it contained elements of and/or was a response to my trolling.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#48 - 2012-08-02 21:03:06 UTC
Capitol One- Why are you making a big deal of a thread about an offhand remark that Yitter made? It's not like he suggested to the CSM that CCP should remove caps from FW. He just gave his own personal offhand opinion. I read the entire conversation and it was just an offhand remark to which they quickly moved on.

So don't worry, WBR can still keep hotdropping people :)

I personally don't have a problem with caps and people in FW should be allowed to use caps. I don't own a cap myself and don't intend to anytime soon. And as Vordak said, caps aren't the problem. It's supercaps.

Unlike Mutnin, I don't think caps ruin the fun for FW. It's the paranoia people have about getting hotdropped that ruins their fun.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Capitol One
Blue Canary
Watch This
#49 - 2012-08-02 21:16:06 UTC
Mutnin wrote:

FW has always been one of the few places people could get a reasonable chance of daily small gang PVP. It has always been intended as a place for newer players and smaller/newer corps to get a start and never was intended to be a place for large corps to sit in idly forever because they don't want to take any risk in the outside world.

I'm not for dumbing down the game, but things like Titians and large capitol fleets were never intended for FW. Groups like yourself & Sotf that have the ability to titian bridge at will and drop large capitol supported gangs are bad for the basic concept that is FW.

FW has always been about younger groups & players & giving them a place to grow. It was never intended place for some 30 year old virgin to try and get a date..


First of all, we do not just "sit idly", we're one of the main contributors to FW in recent history, despite all troll attempts to the contrary.

Secondly, you're sorely mistaken if you think that deploying a cap fleet in the current political climate of eve ,with multiple strong groups just itching to massacre your fleet, is somehow less risky than flying in a small drake fleet.

You seem to have a lot of preconceptions on what "FW is supposed to be". Let me educate you, eve is a sandbox, the players shape the gameplay and caps are included in that lowsec gameplay where FW takes place ;)

FW is not just for young players or as some people love calling us "Militia Noobs", it's for whoever fancies the mechanics and all that FW has to offer, be it easy access to all kinds of pvp (frigates -> caps) via the endless War, FW missions, plexing or roleplaying.

I guess we've all forgotten about that time when 2 notable FW corps (W-BR/SOTF) killed a PL titan in their home system (Amamake) with Dreads \o/.
Capitol One
Blue Canary
Watch This
#50 - 2012-08-02 21:26:56 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Capitol One- Why are you making a big deal of a thread about an offhand remark that Yitter made? It's not like he suggested to the CSM that CCP should remove caps from FW. He just gave his own personal offhand opinion. I read the entire conversation and it was just an offhand remark to which they quickly moved on.

So don't worry, WBR can still keep hotdropping people :)

I personally don't have a problem with caps and people in FW should be allowed to use caps. I don't own a cap myself and don't intend to anytime soon. And as Vordak said, caps aren't the problem. It's supercaps.

Unlike Mutnin, I don't think caps ruin the fun for FW. It's the paranoia people have about getting hotdropped that ruins their fun.



It's more of making a statement, considering the leading developer on all things FW has a warped idea of what FW is.
I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think Ytterbium has actively participated in FW, instead spending his playtime with other less turbulant highsec activities (don't quote me on that!).

I've always found him to be an excellent dev and a great listener so that's why I felt I needed to point out the "error of his ways", even if it was only an offhanded remark it showed an opinion that is the complete opposite of a majority of FW players.

CCP has repeatedly said that FW is for noobs and veterans alike, well .. as a veteran I'd like to keep my cap fights :)
GenesisMike
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-08-02 22:10:12 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Capitol One wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Capitol One wrote:
Your "consequence" would have my rather fly stabbed merlins and rifters instead of expensive ships engaging in interesting combat that brings a lot of players in FW together in one big brawl.

But I guess you're so used to your rifters you can't comprehend anything beyond them.


You've presented a false dichotomy my friend. We have more choices than "YAY CAPITAL BLOB" and "Frigate Fleet". There's a whole range of possibilities in-between.

I fly Firetails and the occasional Wolf. I'm in the process of training up Hybrid Turrets so I can start flying Merlins and perhaps Harpies, although I am excited to start training my missile skills once I get Turret Control: Elite.




Fair point, I might've been overly eager in my reply.

However my point still stands, limiting FW to only subcaps is just a terrible handicap. I mean we live in lowsec for crying out loud, this isn't RvB. What am I supposed to do when I see a pirate cap fleet deploy in my surrounding area? Go whine on the forums about it or actually get to drop a few dreads and Faction BS with Triage support on them and show'em who's boss!

To summarize: FW is many things. It's frigate combat and elusive 1v1 battles ranging to cruiser and bc brawls inside plexes to the bigger BS fights with caps when things get more serious.

Don't force FW pilots to become handicapped because "hotdrop is bad", there are ways around the hotdrop and even still, you're flying in lowsec ... the hotdrop is always a threat, be it from FW corps, Pirate corps or nullsec groups.



FW has always been one of the few places people could get a reasonable chance of daily small gang PVP. It has always been intended as a place for newer players and smaller/newer corps to get a start and never was intended to be a place for large corps to sit in idly forever because they don't want to take any risk in the outside world.

I'm not for dumbing down the game, but things like Titians and large capitol fleets were never intended for FW. Groups like yourself & Sotf that have the ability to titian bridge at will and drop large capitol supported gangs are bad for the basic concept that is FW.

FW has always been about younger groups & players & giving them a place to grow. It was never intended place for some 30 year old virgin to try and get a date..



Cap pilots are virgins???? Interesting turn in this discussion.
Trendafil
Balkan Kings
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2012-08-03 05:26:39 UTC
I support capitals in FW!

Also now that DD is single target, make it work in low sec PLEAAAAAASE! :D
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-08-03 06:44:22 UTC
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
Thread has been cleaned of off topic and troll posts. Please stick to the actual topic of discussion and post responsibly, thank you.






Removed troll and off topic posts - ISD Type40.


But you left some of Xuixien's posts. Could we ask you to take another pass? I find them very difficult to stomach. ;)

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
United Caldari Space Command.
#54 - 2012-08-03 07:00:32 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Capitol One wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Capitol One wrote:
Your "consequence" would have my rather fly stabbed merlins and rifters instead of expensive ships engaging in interesting combat that brings a lot of players in FW together in one big brawl.

But I guess you're so used to your rifters you can't comprehend anything beyond them.


You've presented a false dichotomy my friend. We have more choices than "YAY CAPITAL BLOB" and "Frigate Fleet". There's a whole range of possibilities in-between.

I fly Firetails and the occasional Wolf. I'm in the process of training up Hybrid Turrets so I can start flying Merlins and perhaps Harpies, although I am excited to start training my missile skills once I get Turret Control: Elite.




Fair point, I might've been overly eager in my reply.

However my point still stands, limiting FW to only subcaps is just a terrible handicap. I mean we live in lowsec for crying out loud, this isn't RvB. What am I supposed to do when I see a pirate cap fleet deploy in my surrounding area? Go whine on the forums about it or actually get to drop a few dreads and Faction BS with Triage support on them and show'em who's boss!

To summarize: FW is many things. It's frigate combat and elusive 1v1 battles ranging to cruiser and bc brawls inside plexes to the bigger BS fights with caps when things get more serious.

Don't force FW pilots to become handicapped because "hotdrop is bad", there are ways around the hotdrop and even still, you're flying in lowsec ... the hotdrop is always a threat, be it from FW corps, Pirate corps or nullsec groups.



FW has always been one of the few places people could get a reasonable chance of daily small gang PVP. It has always been intended as a place for newer players and smaller/newer corps to get a start and never was intended to be a place for large corps to sit in idly forever because they don't want to take any risk in the outside world.

I'm not for dumbing down the game, but things like Titians and large capitol fleets were never intended for FW. Groups like yourself & Sotf that have the ability to titian bridge at will and drop large capitol supported gangs are bad for the basic concept that is FW.

FW has always been about younger groups & players & giving them a place to grow. It was never intended place for some 30 year old virgin to try and get a date..


You can find small gang pvp in a number of places. FW isn't the only place. FW is just the only place where you don't have to roam far to fight another person. Be grateful that you don't have to. I wanted to do a 50-system roam last week and pilots on comms just started moaning and whining about it. And here I thought roaming to new places and fighting new people would be an adventure and learning experience. Instead, people just want to sit on the undock in Nenn, Heyd, or whatever and hope targets come to them or wait for an FC to herd them out of station. Such laziness.

I don't see where CCP says FW is ONLY for young groups and players. You've consistently called more established corps like Qcats, WBR, SOTF, as hacks who couldn't cut it if they went to null. Hence they fall back on FW so they can exist in their own little bubble. So if that's the case, then by your own definition, you also, are a hack considering you have tons of knowledge and experience and have refused to move past FW. Unless I'm missing something?

Hotdropping is part of living in dangerous space. If people don't know how to avoid getting hotdropped, then they have bigger issues to worry about.

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#55 - 2012-08-03 07:22:09 UTC
[quote]CCP Ytterbium: ”Something I really don't like in Factional Warfare, is just the capital hot drop. To me it has nothing to do with what Factional Warfare is supposed to do.”[quote]

Recap for CCP:
They created a 4 faction perma war.
Gave the factions 4, huge, multi system, warzones
The whole thing promotes large fleet/blob warfare.
They gave ISK compensation that is arguably the best in game.
Then they added SOV mechanics
Station lockout, upgraded systems, etc.

What part of this did they think would discourage cap ships ?
Were we supposed to take down I-Hubs with Harpy fleets ?


FW is better than it has been in years. I hope they don't "fix" it, by doing some cap ship ban.
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#56 - 2012-08-03 08:33:05 UTC
i like capitals
and CAPITOOL ONE

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#57 - 2012-08-03 08:34:43 UTC
Trendafil wrote:
I support capitals in FW!

Also now that DD is single target, make it work in low sec PLEAAAAAASE! :D

YESS PLEASE!!
Why cant we use doomsday in lowsec. it puts titans at massive risk and requires a bit of planning to execute ganks using doomsday.

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#58 - 2012-08-03 10:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Deen Wispa wrote:



You can find small gang pvp in a number of places. FW isn't the only place. FW is just the only place where you don't have to roam far to fight another person. Be grateful that you don't have to. I wanted to do a 50-system roam last week and pilots on comms just started moaning and whining about it. And here I thought roaming to new places and fighting new people would be an adventure and learning experience. Instead, people just want to sit on the undock in Nenn, Heyd, or whatever and hope targets come to them or wait for an FC to herd them out of station. Such laziness.

I don't see where CCP says FW is ONLY for young groups and players. You've consistently called more established corps like Qcats, WBR, SOTF, as hacks who couldn't cut it if they went to null. Hence they fall back on FW so they can exist in their own little bubble. So if that's the case, then by your own definition, you also, are a hack considering you have tons of knowledge and experience and have refused to move past FW. Unless I'm missing something?

Hotdropping is part of living in dangerous space. If people don't know how to avoid getting hotdropped, then they have bigger issues to worry about.


The reason most guys in FW don't want to do long roams, is because people become lazy while in FW because of the reason you said. It's very easy to undock and find the same people to shoot at every day.

As far as established corps, I've never said Qcats shouldn't stay in FW, they are or were as I'd put it a typical FW style corp that were very active in FW style of fighting.

As far as myself & or my corp.. I took my experience and had help from a friend and we put it to use by creating a corp that took pretty much anyone that wanted to join (usually total noobs).. The only reason this corp was even created was because at the time we started recruiting Caldari Militia was falling apart and it had no solid corps that helped out newer players.

We took the time and trained many players and put a lot of effort into getting guys into ships that would eventually be-useful in Caldari gangs. Simply put we took new & or inexperanced players and gave them a basic path to follow and created a corp around that idea.

We have become one of the largest corps in Cal militia in a very short time and have had decent success activity on the KB's. One thing we don't do however is sit around to leech players from up & coming corps. Once Caldari Militia started becoming organized again, I stopped openly recruiting and now we just get guys by referral or players that contact us.

In short this is a corp built for a specific hole that needed filled and if I or a group of us decided to leave FW this corp would be disbanded or passed over to someone else to run and carry on the basic idea. This corp was never intended to be a major power house or leech players from other corps.
Ya Nor
Seventeenth Battalion
Honorable Third Party
#59 - 2012-08-03 13:01:43 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
The reason most guys in FW don't want to do long roams, is because people become lazy while in FW because of the reason you said. It's very easy to undock and find the same people to shoot at every day.

As far as established corps, I've never said Qcats shouldn't stay in FW, they are or were as I'd put it a typical FW style corp that were very active in FW style of fighting.

As far as myself & or my corp.. I took my experience and had help from a friend and we put it to use by creating a corp that took pretty much anyone that wanted to join (usually total noobs).. The only reason this corp was even created was because at the time we started recruiting Caldari Militia was falling apart and it had no solid corps that helped out newer players.

We took the time and trained many players and put a lot of effort into getting guys into ships that would eventually be-useful in Caldari gangs. Simply put we took new & or inexperanced players and gave them a basic path to follow and created a corp around that idea.

We have become one of the largest corps in Cal militia in a very short time and have had decent success activity on the KB's. One thing we don't do however is sit around to leech players from up & coming corps. Once Caldari Militia started becoming organized again, I stopped openly recruiting and now we just get guys by referral or players that contact us.

In short this is a corp built for a specific hole that needed filled and if I or a group of us decided to leave FW this corp would be disbanded or passed over to someone else to run and carry on the basic idea. This corp was never intended to be a major power house or leech players from other corps.


For a corp who has stopped recruiting, this sure sounds like a recruitment post. Way to stay on topic.

\o/ Capital warfare etc
Wenron
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-08-03 13:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Wenron
I may have interpreted what I read incorrectly; however, wasn't the point of the whole cyno-jammer discussion to allow FW pilots to field capital assets without fear of being hot-dropped by outside parties?

I've been in a couple capital engagements (on an older character who did a stint in gal mil in '10-'11) and they were a lot of fun. There was a fair amount of meta involved to be sure that no null or pirate hot-drops happened. I feel like they would have been used more often if this was not such a concern.

In effect, I interpret the minutes to mean that CCP is looking for a way to promote further capital escalation in FW by removing a percieved roadblock. Now, I am not so sure how I'd feel about this if I were a null or pirate entity looking to blap some FW nooblets (that is how you guys think right? Big smile).

Edit: going back to the minutes it is clear that some want to remove the hot drop for all. I should not post citing memory. I prefer my interpretation above still.