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AFK Mining with the new mining barge changes
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Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#41 - 2012-07-27 12:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Actually the Ore bay is a big difference.

High-sec isn't perfectly safe and all it takes is one person for you to lose hours of work.

And in Null there is no way I would ever leave cans in a belt if it can be helped.

Doesn't matter anyways there will be a ton of Retrievers out there come Nov as high-sec players won't bother with the Mack unless they already have one.

And a lot of hulks will be sold as well.
It is all going to come down to how many alts a player has and their play style.

That will ultimately determine if a Hulk / Mack / Retriever will earn them more ISK per hour.
Not the raw numbers on which one can bring in the most m^3 per cycle.
Dave stark
#42 - 2012-07-27 12:56:43 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Actually the Ore bay is a big difference.

High-sec isn't perfectly safe and all it takes is one person for you to lose hours of work.

And in Null there is no way I would ever leave cans in a belt if it can be helped.

Doesn't matter anyways there will be a ton of Retrievers out there come Nov as high-sec players won't bother with the Mack unless they already have one.

And a lot of hulks will be sold as well.
It is all going to come down to how many alts a player has and their play style.

That will ultimately determine if a Hulk / Mack / Retriever will earn them more ISK per hour.
Not the raw numbers on which one can bring in the most m^3 per cycle.


sad truth about the retriever, the mackinaw needs some love.

and hulk hulk orca will always be optimal and adding +1 hulk for each account after the third. however for two accounts (like me) you'll gain more by going hulk/hulk. however those that currently go hulk/orca for ease will be better off going hulk/mack and jetting the hulk's ore in to the mack's hold as the mack's yield will be more than an orca's bonuses.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#43 - 2012-07-27 13:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Actually the Ore bay is a big difference.

High-sec isn't perfectly safe and all it takes is one person for you to lose hours of work.

And in Null there is no way I would ever leave cans in a belt if it can be helped.

Doesn't matter anyways there will be a ton of Retrievers out there come Nov as high-sec players won't bother with the Mack unless they already have one.

And a lot of hulks will be sold as well.
It is all going to come down to how many alts a player has and their play style.

That will ultimately determine if a Hulk / Mack / Retriever will earn them more ISK per hour.
Not the raw numbers on which one can bring in the most m^3 per cycle.


sad truth about the retriever, the mackinaw needs some love.

and hulk hulk orca will always be optimal and adding +1 hulk for each account after the third. however for two accounts (like me) you'll gain more by going hulk/hulk. however those that currently go hulk/orca for ease will be better off going hulk/mack and jetting the hulk's ore in to the mack's hold as the mack's yield will be more than an orca's bonuses.


2 accounts always seems to be a sticky number
you get 3 and the 2 hulks and a hauler wins hands down.
WIth 1 or 2 characters it comes down to play style and how much hassle you want to deal with.
Then again I tend to use T1 Strips cause I get tired of dealing with the crystals.
Well at least in high-sec, in null crystal all the way cause the roids are big enough to merit it.
But high-sec, it comes down to tolerance for lack of a better word.

Still want enough of a ORe hold on the Hulk and Covetor to handle 2 cycles.
Dave stark
#44 - 2012-07-27 15:24:47 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Draconyx wrote:
Actually the Ore bay is a big difference.

High-sec isn't perfectly safe and all it takes is one person for you to lose hours of work.

And in Null there is no way I would ever leave cans in a belt if it can be helped.

Doesn't matter anyways there will be a ton of Retrievers out there come Nov as high-sec players won't bother with the Mack unless they already have one.

And a lot of hulks will be sold as well.
It is all going to come down to how many alts a player has and their play style.

That will ultimately determine if a Hulk / Mack / Retriever will earn them more ISK per hour.
Not the raw numbers on which one can bring in the most m^3 per cycle.


sad truth about the retriever, the mackinaw needs some love.

and hulk hulk orca will always be optimal and adding +1 hulk for each account after the third. however for two accounts (like me) you'll gain more by going hulk/hulk. however those that currently go hulk/orca for ease will be better off going hulk/mack and jetting the hulk's ore in to the mack's hold as the mack's yield will be more than an orca's bonuses.


2 accounts always seems to be a sticky number
you get 3 and the 2 hulks and a hauler wins hands down.
WIth 1 or 2 characters it comes down to play style and how much hassle you want to deal with.
Then again I tend to use T1 Strips cause I get tired of dealing with the crystals.
Well at least in high-sec, in null crystal all the way cause the roids are big enough to merit it.
But high-sec, it comes down to tolerance for lack of a better word.

Still want enough of a ORe hold on the Hulk and Covetor to handle 2 cycles.


agreed, 2 accounts is an awkward number for miners. since moving back to high sec i've gone for t1 strips as well, i mean i was mining asteroids earlier that weren't even doing 2 full cycles of t1 strips, but were still too big for 1 cycle with t2 crystals so even with the crystals i wasn't really gaining anything.

the problem is, ccp won't give the hulk more than 8000m3 cargo space in total, and some of that HAS to be for crystals in a regular ore hold, there's not enough room for 2 cycles even with a 0m3 cargo hold, hence the best of a bad situation is to make the ore hold the bare minimum for 1 cycle and give the rest of the space over to regular cargo for crystals.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#45 - 2012-07-27 15:53:08 UTC
Hulk / Mack / Retriever. Occasionally Skiff. Shame I rarely see other names mentioned. Most likely means they will not get much use. Be interesting to see how it turns out on live.

I have a few of each ship, so I am not worried about the time-to-purchase efficiency. I also mine in a system that has roids which can fill a Mack hold and then a bit. The extra tank is also because occasionally suicide gankers get close (rare, but does happen at times), and it will make the difference for my purposes.

I'll definitely experiment, as how it looks on paper and how it feels driving it are always different, but as it stands I will most likely either be using Hulk / Orca, or Mack / Mack, with the dual Macks always when I hop over to do some ice mining.


I agree with the 2x cycle Ore hold, and room for crystals in bay arguments. They are valid and logical points.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Dave stark
#46 - 2012-07-27 16:01:53 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Hulk / Mack / Retriever. Occasionally Skiff. Shame I rarely see other names mentioned. Most likely means they will not get much use. Be interesting to see how it turns out on live.

I have a few of each ship, so I am not worried about the time-to-purchase efficiency. I also mine in a system that has roids which can fill a Mack hold and then a bit. The extra tank is also because occasionally suicide gankers get close (rare, but does happen at times), and it will make the difference for my purposes.

I'll definitely experiment, as how it looks on paper and how it feels driving it are always different, but as it stands I will most likely either be using Hulk / Orca, or Mack / Mack, with the dual Macks always when I hop over to do some ice mining.


I agree with the 2x cycle Ore hold, and room for crystals in bay arguments. They are valid and logical points.


they won't get much use, because they're t1 ships, they're a stepping stone. much like a slasher will soon be a stepping stone to a claw or a stiletto.
on the other hand, the retriever won't be because the mackinaw is a feeble upgrade and people will only use them because they already owned one for the purpose of mining ice; where the hulk is now king.

dual mack will give you a better yield, i haven't done the maths on it yet... i'll get around to that in a moment now i have a point to prove! however my gut says orca bonuses are only worth about 45% or so of a solo hulk's yield, yet the hulk isn't *that* far ahead that with orca boosts it'll beat two retrievers, especially since the two retrievers are still getting the 15% ganglink bonus.
Dave stark
#47 - 2012-07-27 16:34:14 UTC
hulk with orca bonus
127765 m3/hour (t1 strips for lazy no crystal hassle mining)

2x macks
163079 m3/hour (t1 strips)

so if we call it 150k m3 for the macks due to having to dump ore more frequently than an orca you're looking at ~30k m3 difference in yield per hour.
Jenna Amsterdam
Eis Piraten
#48 - 2012-07-31 20:24:02 UTC
the mack has 3 low slots wich is good for mining upgrades. i think if you can get enough cpu that could be alot of fun!
Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#49 - 2012-08-01 01:59:03 UTC
Draconyx wrote:
That is alright I should have left it alone based on your other threads.
You are not a big picture person.
In this case you got hung up in ~13.49 seconds instead of looking at my entire post.
Well that And you figured in fleet bonuses and a rig that can't be tested yet.
So it was no wonder your number and mine were not even close.

I think we derailed this thread whoops, sorry all OopsOops


Its ok; This is how miners do their pvp.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#50 - 2012-08-01 14:48:26 UTC
Quentin Marshall wrote:
So if I am afk mining, it would seem that the Retriever is a better option to do it than the Covetor given that it has a bigger cargohold. Would people agree or disagree?


Retriever: Ore hold: 30,000 m3
Covetor: Ore hold: 7,000 m3

Also, why did they decide to add an ore hold for the new patch? Was it to help minimize the can flipping that would occur with jet can mining?


Personally I think anyone who afk mines should be blown out of space and their pod asap. Nothing personal. Blink

I gather the reason for CCP changing the new abnormally large holds on some of the mining barges to hold ore only is so that these new barges with increased EHP capability cannot be used as haulers/cargo vessels.

Hmmm. I've thought of an additional related question; Will these new ore only holds be able to store refined ore(From hauler rat drops Smile.) or only unrefined ore?
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
#51 - 2012-08-01 15:47:09 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
General Koen wrote:
For AFK mining bigger cargo is always better. Make sure to tankfit it. ;)


yep 30k cago is going to help afk mine when you've only got 7k worth of ore targeted!

So do not target 7k cu m of ore. Survey scanners are your friend. Also note that now any ship can be an ice miner. You make it a bonused ice miner by adding the ice mining rig. And ice roids rarely pop.

So the real afk mining option will be a well tanked up ice mining vessel. Ice and ice products are going to fall in price......


Ice prices have already plummeted so it's really nothing new. End of the day, the people who are going to AFK or bot mining are already doing it in the ice fields. ATK miners are rarely in Ice - the difference in hi-sec is 22M / hour (Hulk mining Mass Scor) vs about 12M / hour (Mack mining White Glaze).
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-08-01 15:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
"afk" is really a misnomer profered by the anti [you name the activity] crowd. What it is really is a split attention activity at best. You get a couple of cycles off of an asteroid at most with a decent strip miner before you have to reassign your target. This isn't the old afk when you could set up one slow miner II laser on a bestower and leave for an hour.. you must stay at your computer / keyboard to mine or make little profit.. that's the reality.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Pleiades Borealis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-08-01 16:08:31 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
hulk with orca bonus
127765 m3/hour (t1 strips for lazy no crystal hassle mining)

2x macks
163079 m3/hour (t1 strips)

so if we call it 150k m3 for the macks due to having to dump ore more frequently than an orca you're looking at ~30k m3 difference in yield per hour.

What is the point on that?

Basically that is the dream come true for every botter out there. No need to get expensive Orca and train Orca pilot. Just get miners and put them on mackinaws and let the ISK printing start.

And yes, I am a miner.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-08-01 16:51:25 UTC
Pleiades Borealis wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
hulk with orca bonus
127765 m3/hour (t1 strips for lazy no crystal hassle mining)

2x macks
163079 m3/hour (t1 strips)

so if we call it 150k m3 for the macks due to having to dump ore more frequently than an orca you're looking at ~30k m3 difference in yield per hour.

What is the point on that?

Basically that is the dream come true for every botter out there. No need to get expensive Orca and train Orca pilot. Just get miners and put them on mackinaws and let the ISK printing start.

And yes, I am a miner.


If you find one, report it. Even if they can tank gankers they can't tank Sreegs.

Mining isn't isk printing. Mission running and other activities where you get payed by NPCs are isk printing.
Dave stark
#55 - 2012-08-01 18:22:14 UTC
Pleiades Borealis wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
hulk with orca bonus
127765 m3/hour (t1 strips for lazy no crystal hassle mining)

2x macks
163079 m3/hour (t1 strips)

so if we call it 150k m3 for the macks due to having to dump ore more frequently than an orca you're looking at ~30k m3 difference in yield per hour.

What is the point on that?

Basically that is the dream come true for every botter out there. No need to get expensive Orca and train Orca pilot. Just get miners and put them on mackinaws and let the ISK printing start.

And yes, I am a miner.


because 2 hulks and an orca will outmine 3 mackinaws. a hulk with orca bonuses will always beat a mackinaw without them. the point is until you have 3 accounts, mackinaws are superior for a multiboxer.

if you want to scale it up, if you have an orca in a pos [common situation, log your orca pilot on and throw an advert in fleet finder and go to work for the day...] it takes ~7 accounts for it to be more profitable to have hulks + dedicated hauler over 7 mackinaws self hauling. 6 is about equal depending on how much you penalise the mackinaws. a ~3.7% penalty on mack yield puts 6 macks vs 5 hulks 1 hauler at break even. this does assume you're mining constantly and not having incomplete cycle for asteroids popping etc.
no idea where i was going with that but yeah....
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#56 - 2012-08-02 13:51:41 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
disagree, because by the time you fill the 7k ore hold the asteroids have popped and you need to target new asteroids and start your strips again. also the covetor has a higher yield.

next stupid question?


Good point.

I've assumed, contrary to the test server info posted on here, that all Barges and Exhumers will have 3 strippers, so that you can target 3 fat asteroids and go AFK for quite a while.

But as I recall, only the Hulk and the Covetor, the max-yield ones, will have 3 strippers.

The other 4 models, the large-bay and the tanky ones, will have a lower number of strippers, although I don't know whether it's 2 for the tanky ones and 1 for the large-bay ones, or 1 for the tanky ones and 2 for the large-bay ones. 1 for the large-bay ones would seem to do the most to thwart AFK'ing, though.
Dave stark
#57 - 2012-08-02 15:04:38 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
disagree, because by the time you fill the 7k ore hold the asteroids have popped and you need to target new asteroids and start your strips again. also the covetor has a higher yield.

next stupid question?


Good point.

I've assumed, contrary to the test server info posted on here, that all Barges and Exhumers will have 3 strippers, so that you can target 3 fat asteroids and go AFK for quite a while.

But as I recall, only the Hulk and the Covetor, the max-yield ones, will have 3 strippers.

The other 4 models, the large-bay and the tanky ones, will have a lower number of strippers, although I don't know whether it's 2 for the tanky ones and 1 for the large-bay ones, or 1 for the tanky ones and 2 for the large-bay ones. 1 for the large-bay ones would seem to do the most to thwart AFK'ing, though.


2 for the large cargo ships (mack/ret), 1 for the tanky ships (skiff/procurer).
Syphon Lodian
Fabled Enterprises
#58 - 2012-08-03 01:23:14 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
"afk" is really a misnomer profered by the anti [you name the activity] crowd. What it is really is a split attention activity at best. You get a couple of cycles off of an asteroid at most with a decnet strip miner before you have to reassign your target. This isn't the old afk when you could set up one slow miner II laser on a bestower and leave for an hour.. you must stay at your computer / keyboard to mine or make little profit.. that's the reality.


This.

Someone teach me how to "AFK" mining rocks. It can't be done.

You have a couple minutes at best if you optimize all your targets to have full roids to complete a few cycles before it pops. You also have to deal with alternating cycles if you use more than one account.

Ice Harvesting is a bit different. You can essentially "AFK" mine, but it's still only "split-attention" as you suggest. You can time it to give you 10-30 seconds before the cycle ends to move your Ice out. I listen to a podcast or read at the computer for Ice. When mining rocks, forget it.. there is nothing afk about that.

Mining rocks is a repetitive-stress injury candidate, not at all AFK. People really need to learn wtf they're talking about, honestly.
MunnyRabbit
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2012-08-03 16:13:39 UTC
When i think about afk mining i never consider ice mining. I may after the patch but we will see. I am not sure about role bonuses or whatnot after the patch but perfect solo hulk brings in 15k ..ish per strip miner veldspar with his t2 strips with t2 crystals for a total of 45kish per 3 minutes. After the patch if i take a mack and find two 70k veldspar roids would i not be set to go afk for 12 minutes since ill be bringing in 15k per strip miner ever 3 minutes?

Yes i find 70+ asteroids in my .9 system regularly as well. It seems like it will be very easy to go afk after patch with ore.

I think i read somewhere that each exhumer will get 50% more yield as a role bonus or something but im not positive. This will affect the above and maybe cut 12 to maybe 6 minutes im not positive.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#60 - 2012-08-03 16:55:07 UTC
looks like were all completely forgetting what people do right now in most part.


1 have a friend or your own booster in an Orca
2 Overtank your hulks, bring all your friends, **** astroid belt move to next belt system.



each ship that costs more then the next in minerals should be better then the ones that cost less, without any arse kissing, whining etc, just let people do what they where doing but make those changes you need changed.
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