These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Out of Pod Experience

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

If Infinite Monkey Were Typing On A Computer…

Author
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#181 - 2012-08-02 21:40:07 UTC
Oh you're just mad because Akita T has no evidence to support her theoretical math.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#182 - 2012-08-02 21:45:03 UTC
So you don't dispute the easily verifiable small numbers, and you don't dispute the logic as to how it should apply to larger numbers, you are just flat out stating that it doesn't apply to larger numbers without any shred of proof to the contrary NOT EVEN a mention as to the exact point it stops being accurate ?
Sounds like desperation to me.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#183 - 2012-08-02 21:49:08 UTC
Akita has about 6 pages of it actually, only problem is that Akita is talking to the mule. Sadly He is just as stubborn hence the 2 of you keep repeating the same thing over, and over, and over, and over
























































and over, and over, and over, and over

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#184 - 2012-08-02 21:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Akita T wrote:
So you don't dispute the easily verifiable small numbers, and you don't dispute the logic as to how it should apply to larger numbers, you are just flat out stating that it doesn't apply to larger numbers without any shred of proof to the contrary NOT EVEN a mention as to the exact point it stops being accurate ?
Sounds like desperation to me.



So... about that proof?



In the mean time I will be playing with this


It can roll 200 at once and so far I have not broken 13 in a row. It does bring up 10-12 every 1,000 or so flip as the math predicts, but in practice the groupings never grow to the 20-50 or above range. It is just not the nature of the beast in practice.


in Practice.
...you know? Reality? Practical application? That sort of "non-imaginary" stuff.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#185 - 2012-08-02 22:02:50 UTC
I give it 2 minutes before his ADD kicks in and he stops playing with the program and claims the theory is a failure again.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#186 - 2012-08-02 22:04:10 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
So... about that proof?
In the mean time I will be playing with this
It can roll 200 at once and so far I have not broken 12 in a row.

12 in a row would be expectable after about 245 sets of 200 and only almost certain after 2450.
How many did you throw so far ?
13 in a row would be expectable about after 532 sets of 200 and only almost certain after 5320.
You probably still have quite a way to go.
14 in a row would be expectable about after 1146 sets of 200 and only almost certain after 11460.
You'll almost certainly get bored before that happens.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#187 - 2012-08-02 22:05:55 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Your Random Number Output Supports My Assertion

01011000 11100111 11010011 10011101 01110011 01000011 11000101 10001001
10011000 10110010 00111000 11110101 11010010 10000100 01111011 00111010
10100101 00011110 01001101 10000011 01000011 10001100 11110101 10000000
00111111 10001011 10111110 00100000 00101111 10110000 11001101 11011101
10010101 11011111 01111111 11010001 00100010 10000011 10100011 00101100
10101101 01100011 01100101 01000011 01101100 10000110 00111111 01101110
01011111 11010111 10000001 00101011 01010101 00011110 10001001 10010010
00111110 00011010 01110101 01110101 01000110 10110110 10111001 11011100


And that is what the output will always look like, regardless of how long you do it.


And yes, I was able to generate 0000 00000000 0000000 in a relatively small set.

My question to you is this: at what point does it become impossible? 20? 30? 50? 100? 1,000? 15,764? At some point you MUST draw an arbitrary line where you say "This number of consecutive heads is possible, but ONE MORE is impossible."

Do you understand now why your argument just doesn't work?

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
If you can't prove it, but you still insist that it is 100% fact... then you practice bad science. Simple.

Prove it.


Proving that it's possible to get 1,000 repeated bits, or 10,000, or whatever number you think is the Magic Impossible Number, would require such a large set that I don't have the resources to produce such a large set of data and analyze it. I *have* demonstrated that the larger your sample set, the more likely you are to get large sets of bits like we're talking about.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#188 - 2012-08-02 22:06:40 UTC
I have been playing with this thing for a long time and 14 is well withing the expected range of "randomness". It is the larger values that are in question and if you think otherwise the burden of proof is on you.


So about that proof?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#189 - 2012-08-02 22:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
The "proof" is that after a set of X, you still have a 50% chance of getting the X+1th of the same type.

So every time you DO encounter a streak of 12, there's a 50% chance the next throw would make it a 13-streak.
Make that 10 streaks of 12 encountered (which, by your account would be "within the margin of randomness") and it would be highly unlikely to NOT get a 13-streak at least once.

And for every 13-streak, there's a 50% chance it will become a 14-streak.
Get enough 13-streaks and it becomes highly unlikely to NOT get a 14-streak eventually.

And so on and so forth.
And the only thing that matters is how many throws you made.
Plus, we gave you estimates of how long the set of throws needs to be for a realistic chance and an almost certainty to get what you need.

Neither of those estimates has any other variables except the number of throws, and there is absolutely no reason to say it stops working after a certain value.
...

Or do I have to explain to you why 1+1=2, 2+1=3, 3+1=4 and so on and so forth too ?
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#190 - 2012-08-02 22:12:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I have been playing with this thing for a long time and 14 is well withing the expected range of "randomness". It is the larger values that are in question and if you think otherwise the burden of proof is on you.


So about that proof?


Before we even talk about proof, what's your Magic Impossible Number?

Also, you speak of science. Science is all about predictions. We've established a verifiable pattern of behavior: the larger the sample set, the larger the strings of consecutive bits. I documented actual samples for you and Akita gave you the math for how to predict the outcomes.

Relativity hasn't been proven yet, but every test thrown at it supports the theory. That theory is accepted by science to the point that refuting it will get the response of "prove it" from the vast majority of scientists. The burden of proof isn't on them, they have a mountain of supporting evidence.

The same goes here: every test so far supports *our* assertion. You're the one going against science.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#191 - 2012-08-02 22:13:09 UTC
Akita T wrote:
The "proof" is that after a set of X, you still have a 50% chance of getting the X+1th of the same type.
So every time you DO encounter a streak of 12, there's a 50% chance the next throw would make it a 13-streak.
And for every 13-streak, there's a 50% chance it will become a 14-streak.
And so on and so forth.

Do I have to explain to you why 1+1=2, 2+1=3, 3+1=4 and so on and so forth too ?



You are not taking all of the variables into account is all and I will discuss this when I make my certain to be megathreadnaught regarding the pseudoscience of statistics.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#192 - 2012-08-02 22:16:06 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:


Before we even talk about proof, what's your Magic Impossible Number?

Also, you speak of science. Science is all about predictions. We've established a verifiable pattern of behavior: the larger the sample set, the larger the strings of consecutive bits. I documented actual samples for you and Akita gave you the math for how to predict the outcomes.




You have supplied nothing. You have no evidence so far that suggests that any value greater then 20 can be generated let alone 100. Do you have anything? I have lots of evidence to the contrary because I have been flipping coins my entire life and I know how they actually behave.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#193 - 2012-08-02 22:16:44 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
You are not taking all of the variables into account

The only variable is the number of expected heads or tails, N.
The answer is N*(2^N) throws for a good chance of throwing N heads or N tails, and 10*N*(2^N) for almost certainly getting a streak of N heads or N tails.
There are no other variables.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#194 - 2012-08-02 22:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
You have supplied nothing. You have no evidence so far that suggests that any value greater then 20 can be generated let alone 100. Do you have anything? I have lots of evidence to the contrary because I have been flipping coins my entire life and I know how they actually behave.


WHAT IS THE MAGIC NUMBER?

This discussion can't proceed until you name the lowest impossible number. I want you to tell me what number of heads is impossible. That will dictate the sample size and provide a goal. Without you stating a specific number, no matter how large a group I produce, you can always simply say "Yeah you got 102, but you'll never get 1,000." So what is it?

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#195 - 2012-08-02 22:19:14 UTC
Fine now prove your hypothesis with some reference please. That is reasonable enough is it not?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#196 - 2012-08-02 22:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
You have supplied nothing. You have no evidence so far that suggests that any value greater then 20 can be generated let alone 100. Do you have anything? I have lots of evidence to the contrary because I have been flipping coins my entire life and I know how they actually behave.


WHAT IS THE MAGIC NUMBER?

This discussion can't proceed until you name the lowest impossible number. That will dictate the sample size and provide a goal. Without you stating a specific number, no matter how large a group I produce, you can always simply say "Yeah you got 102, but you'll never get 1,000." So what is it?



Well that is true. But you have failed to produce evidence of a sufficiently large number (such as 100) to justify the discussion of being able to randomly reach 10,000 or 10 billion in a row. So the burden of proof... is... on YOU. Duh?

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#197 - 2012-08-02 22:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
You have supplied nothing. You have no evidence so far that suggests that any value greater then 20 can be generated let alone 100. Do you have anything? I have lots of evidence to the contrary because I have been flipping coins my entire life and I know how they actually behave.

20*2^20 = 20,971,520.
Have you really flipped coins nearly 21 million times in your entire life ?
Assuming a coin flip takes about 3 seconds on average, that's nearly TWO WHOLE YEARS needed, just to have a DECENT chance of flipping 20 heads in a row. Add in work and sleep, and that's SIX YEARS of your life spent throwing coins in your free time.
And make that SIXTY years of spending all your free time flipping coins to be almost certain to get 20 heads or tails in a row.
Your personal experience is irrelevant for anything even approaching 20 heads or tails in a row. You simply do not have enough time to actually see that.

Eternum Praetorian wrote:
you have failed to produce evidence of a sufficiently large number (such as 100) to justify the discussion

The record of needed number of throws for that to happen randomly surpasses the PLANETARY DATA STORAGE CAPACITY.
Of course he can't provide that to you.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#198 - 2012-08-02 22:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Well that is true. But you have failed to produce evidence of a sufficiently large number (such as 100) to justify the discussion of being able to randomly reach 10,000 or 10 billion in a row. So the burden of proof... is... on YOU. Duh?


Right then. You refuse to make a verifiable claim, therefore we have nothing to test. Like I said before, I could show you a hundred or a thousand or a million and you could forever +1 it, claiming the next number is impossible. Until you give us a definitive test to perform, there is no way to proceed.

As soon as you will plainly state the lowest impossible number of consecutive heads (or the highest possible, your choice) then we can think about how to design a test to see who is right.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#199 - 2012-08-02 22:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Akita T wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
You have supplied nothing. You have no evidence so far that suggests that any value greater then 20 can be generated let alone 100. Do you have anything? I have lots of evidence to the contrary because I have been flipping coins my entire life and I know how they actually behave.

20*2^20 = 20,971,520.
Have you really flipped coins nearly 21 million times in your entire life ?
Assuming a coin flip takes about 3 seconds on average, that's nearly TWO WHOLE YEARS needed, just to have a DECENT chance of flipping 20 heads in a row. Add in work and sleep, and that's SIX YEARS of your life spent throwing coins in your free time.
And make that SIXTY years of spending all your free time flipping coins to be almost certain to get 20 heads or tails in a row.
Your personal experience is irrelevant for anything even approaching 20 heads or tails in a row. You simply do not have enough time to actually see that.



Ok so a computer can do that pretty easily then? Has it been done to your knowledge? Because I know of no such experiment? More to the fact we would be looking more to the 50-100 range and greater.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]

Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#200 - 2012-08-02 22:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Well that is true. But you have failed to produce evidence of a sufficiently large number (such as 100) to justify the discussion of being able to randomly reach 10,000 or 10 billion in a row. So the burden of proof... is... on YOU. Duh?


Right then.


No we start with 100... nice dodge though. Blink


If you can present such information then we would have something to discuss then wouldn't we? Give me a break, this is not debate this is the scientific method. Don't be so adolescent. Assume 100 and go. Disprove eternum's theory and assert your own with facts...


This is how things get done.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]