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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Anvil44
Quantshure
#361 - 2012-08-02 19:41:01 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:

stuff


oh he mad

This is actually a well thought out and persuasive argument, using logic and math skills to back it up. I won't say I agree with all his points but at least it was an intelligent argument. We should promote and applaud responses like this as opposed to most of the other comments seen regarding the changes to the mining ships.
I still think that one or two sets of crystals in the cargo hold is plenty enough. If the Hulk needs a change, I honestly would recommend giving it a bit more of a boost to mining yield when receiving bonus from command modules...if that were possible (not sure it would be easy to implement but I would guess not). That would reenforce it as the premier fleet mining vessel.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Unit757
North Point
#362 - 2012-08-02 19:45:38 UTC
Oh look, Infinate just asked for what the Hulk ALREADY HAS. It can carry 5 crystal types now. 4 sets in the hold, plus the loaded set. Bang, got what you wanted, now STFU.
Infinite Force
#363 - 2012-08-02 19:47:22 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
MIrple wrote:
I think your math is off sir your multiplying 25m crystal size by 3 stips by 3 crystals this is the same as strips by 5 ore types the hulk bay would be closer to 900 m3. I am not trying to troll you just pointing out your numbers are off.

Math is thus:

Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types

25 m3 * 3 strips * 3 (1 active + 2 spare) * 5 ores:

25 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 1,125 m3

So you need to have 2 spare crystals per ore type? I feel that is a bit excessive.

It's a T2 ship with a mining speciality.

My position is that the Barges carry 1 spare crystal per ore and the Exhumers carry 2 spares - helps set apart the ships.

I'm fine with you disagreeing, but define 'excessive' when right now I can Hulk mine and carry even more than that in replacement crystals (I don't, btw) and still have enough Cargo space to dump to a can as the strips cycle.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2012-08-02 19:49:01 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:

1 - being in a fleet does require you to be able to mine every single ore that your skills allow you to. It does not mean, or imply that you need to carry every single ore type. Your agument is moot as you could also argue that you don't need to be able to shoot at every ammo range on your PvP roam.

I'm not aware of many people who do carry every ammo range. So yes, you are exactly right here. And exactly like those pilots you have to make a choice about what the most effective things you can fill your hold with are. Not seeing an issue.
Infinite Force wrote:

2 - miners are not asking to be able to hold every crystal + replacements (we'll ignore the obvious fringe requests) - but rather to just keep the options they currently have for crystal choices. Is that a whine? Nope, that's feedback. Note that difference when the combat ships come up for "redesign".

This is somewhat contradictory and impossible while coupled with the idea of a dedicated hold. You either have restrictions or you don't. And diverting too much hold to cargo runs the risk of making expanded hulks viable, which they are trying to limit to reinforce the roles of the other 2 ships.
Infinite Force wrote:

3 - Get it out of your head that "miners are only in high-sec". WH residents can't "dock up" and neither can Nullsec people that don't have a local Outpost.

POS up then? Have haulers nearby with additional crystals? Use the ship with the support it's intended for?
Infinite Force wrote:

4 - Fleet mining is for efficiency. Repeat that for me, please .. Efficiency .. Docking up reduces your efficiency. Therefore, you must have enough cargohold space to mine with efficiency.

>> If a fleet of Skiffs can outmine a fleet of Hulks or Macks, then that's the ship that will be used. Industrial operations are always about maxing input & output.

A portion of a fleet should be devoted to ensuring the miners can keep mining. If you have mining ships without support they have to leave the belt to unload. This is where the hulk loses due to it's small hold as intended. With support holds are irrelevant so all that matters is yield, which is where the hulk excels also as intended. It is the other parts of your fleet comp which determine if a hulk is useful or not.
Infinite Force
#365 - 2012-08-02 19:50:23 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
Oh look, Infinate just asked for what the Hulk ALREADY HAS. It can carry 5 crystal types now. 4 sets in the hold, plus the loaded set. Bang, got what you wanted, now STFU.

Sheesh .. At least spell my name right Sad

Unless they've updated the Cargohold since I came to work this morning, my math from above still stands.

To quote Suddenly Forums ForumKings:
Quote:
oh he mad

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#366 - 2012-08-02 19:52:52 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
MIrple wrote:
I think your math is off sir your multiplying 25m crystal size by 3 stips by 3 crystals this is the same as strips by 5 ore types the hulk bay would be closer to 900 m3. I am not trying to troll you just pointing out your numbers are off.

Math is thus:

Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types

25 m3 * 3 strips * 3 (1 active + 2 spare) * 5 ores:

25 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 1,125 m3

So you need to have 2 spare crystals per ore type? I feel that is a bit excessive.

It's a T2 ship with a mining speciality.

My position is that the Barges carry 1 spare crystal per ore and the Exhumers carry 2 spares - helps set apart the ships.

I'm fine with you disagreeing, but define 'excessive' when right now I can Hulk mine and carry even more than that in replacement crystals (I don't, btw) and still have enough Cargo space to dump to a can as the strips cycle.


I am in favor of the Idea of making t2 crystals 20 m3 and giving the hulk a 500 m3 bay it would give you 5 ore types to mine with plus room for 9 other crystals of your choice
Unit757
North Point
#367 - 2012-08-02 20:01:10 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Oh look, Infinate just asked for what the Hulk ALREADY HAS. It can carry 5 crystal types now. 4 sets in the hold, plus the loaded set. Bang, got what you wanted, now STFU.

Sheesh .. At least spell my name right Sad

Unless they've updated the Cargohold since I came to work this morning, my math from above still stands.

To quote Suddenly Forums ForumKings:
Quote:
oh he mad



You asked for 5 types of crystals, and it currently, with its 350m3 hold, can meet that. You are failing to grasp the fact that in order to be effective with its crystals, it needs fleet support. crystals now can last roughly 80 minutes on full burn with 2 min cycles, and you mean to tell me that in 80 minutes, you cant have a hauler restock you?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#368 - 2012-08-02 20:08:39 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
the skiff gains the same independence from cargo/ore restrictions too.
So? The Hulk still gains from being in a fleet — it gains the exact things it needs to make full use of its yield.

Anvil44 wrote:
He is mostly p*ssed that ganking a T2 ship with one destroyer is no longer an easy task...if at all possible
It was never an easy task, or even possible, unless the Miner participated in the gank to nuke his own defences.
Pipa Porto
#369 - 2012-08-02 20:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Dave stark wrote:
i'll never say the hulk is a bad ship, however it certainly seems to require a lot more effort for things like isk investment, and skills, etc to get the most out of it. however whether or not that is a good or bad thing is another point entirely.


That's... uh... kind of the point of these changes. The Hulk is a high investment*, high reward ship. The Mackinaw and Skiff are both lower investment, lower reward ships.

*In multiple senses of the word.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#370 - 2012-08-02 20:16:32 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
MIrple wrote:
I think your math is off sir your multiplying 25m crystal size by 3 stips by 3 crystals this is the same as strips by 5 ore types the hulk bay would be closer to 900 m3. I am not trying to troll you just pointing out your numbers are off.

Math is thus:

Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types

25 m3 * 3 strips * 3 (1 active + 2 spare) * 5 ores:

25 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 1,125 m3



So you need to have 2 spare crystals per ore type? I feel that is a bit excessive.


Spares vary by preference. If I have brand new crystals, I don't bother with spares. If you have 2-3 used crystals, then you want to have 1-2 spares at the least. Remember, there is no way to check the condition of those crystals unless they are loaded in the strip miner. And no, I am not just going to use brand new crystals every time, that would be a waste of resources.

Senex Legio
Anvil44
Quantshure
#371 - 2012-08-02 20:19:01 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i'll never say the hulk is a bad ship, however it certainly seems to require a lot more effort for things like isk investment, and skills, etc to get the most out of it. however whether or not that is a good or bad thing is another point entirely.


That's... uh... kind of the point of these changes. The Hulk is a high investment*, high reward ship. The Mackinaw and Skiff are both lower investment, lower reward ships.

*In multiple senses of the word.

Isk investment is starting to come closer to evening out as both Skiff and Mack have jumped in price, closing on the Hulk. Skill investment? A whole 20-ish hours(depending on implants) to get from Skiff to Hulk. All as it stands right now. Doesn't seem to me like one ship is all that much higher investment than the other...as things stand now. Once the mining ship changes come through, hopefully all will fall more into a line of roughly the same cost(based of course on perceived value and demand) and roughly the same skills.

And of course, lower reward is all a matter of perspective. I might get less mining done in a Skiff (looking at after the proposed change of course) but my reward of security might more than make up for the Hulk's superior mining ability.


I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#372 - 2012-08-02 20:24:04 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Unit757 wrote:
Oh look, Infinate just asked for what the Hulk ALREADY HAS. It can carry 5 crystal types now. 4 sets in the hold, plus the loaded set. Bang, got what you wanted, now STFU.

Sheesh .. At least spell my name right Sad

Unless they've updated the Cargohold since I came to work this morning, my math from above still stands.

To quote Suddenly Forums ForumKings:
Quote:
oh he mad



You asked for 5 types of crystals, and it currently, with its 350m3 hold, can meet that. You are failing to grasp the fact that in order to be effective with its crystals, it needs fleet support. crystals now can last roughly 80 minutes on full burn with 2 min cycles, and you mean to tell me that in 80 minutes, you cant have a hauler restock you?


Another one who has never mined with T2 lasers and T2 crystals.

Used crystals can burn out at any time, depending on the wear and tear.

Of course you would not know this though, seeing as how you never encountered used crystals before.

Senex Legio
Pipa Porto
#373 - 2012-08-02 20:34:14 UTC
Anvil44 wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i'll never say the hulk is a bad ship, however it certainly seems to require a lot more effort for things like isk investment, and skills, etc to get the most out of it. however whether or not that is a good or bad thing is another point entirely.


That's... uh... kind of the point of these changes. The Hulk is a high investment*, high reward ship. The Mackinaw and Skiff are both lower investment, lower reward ships.

*In multiple senses of the word.

Isk investment is starting to come closer to evening out as both Skiff and Mack have jumped in price, closing on the Hulk. Skill investment? A whole 20-ish hours(depending on implants) to get from Skiff to Hulk. All as it stands right now. Doesn't seem to me like one ship is all that much higher investment than the other...as things stand now. Once the mining ship changes come through, hopefully all will fall more into a line of roughly the same cost(based of course on perceived value and demand) and roughly the same skills.

And of course, lower reward is all a matter of perspective. I might get less mining done in a Skiff (looking at after the proposed change of course) but my reward of security might more than make up for the Hulk's superior mining ability.


I was talking about Effort investment. The Hulk is an inconvenient ship compared to the Mackinaw. To compensate for that, you get more ore if you deal with the inconveniences.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#374 - 2012-08-02 20:36:32 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Another one who has never mined with T2 lasers and T2 crystals.

Used crystals can burn out at any time, depending on the wear and tear.

Of course you would not know this though, seeing as how you never encountered used crystals before.


Used Crystals tell you how much HP they have left. Each time the 20% chance of damage comes up "damage," it takes 2.5% damage. At minimum, a T2 Crystal will last 40 cycles, or ~80 minutes. On average, it will last 5 times that.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#375 - 2012-08-02 20:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i'll never say the hulk is a bad ship, however it certainly seems to require a lot more effort for things like isk investment, and skills, etc to get the most out of it. however whether or not that is a good or bad thing is another point entirely.


That's... uh... kind of the point of these changes. The Hulk is a high investment*, high reward ship. The Mackinaw and Skiff are both lower investment, lower reward ships.

*In multiple senses of the word.


the reward isn't proportionate to the investment, imo. like i say it takes 7 accounts, give or take, to make it worth switching to hulks + a hauler over mackinaws if you've got orca bonuses in a pos from some one who logs on an orca in a pos and then goes to work/afk all day/whatever, or having a damnation tanking 0.0 rats while running mining links.

i mean, smaller more intimate corps will look at it and go "oh look the hulk is a fleet miner... but we'll get more out of mackinaws in our mining fleet because bob's gone to work today and left is orca in the pos." like i said; there's no advantage to being in a hulk in a fleet over any other type of ship. if the hulk got some kind of bonus for *being in a fleet* eg how mining director works [the 10% yield bonus is only applied when in a fleet] then yeah, it'd have a bonus for being in a fleet.

as it stands being in a fleet doesn't make the hulk better; it just stops it sucking. if this is the only way they can balance it then so be it, i just find it a strange way of working things.
Pipa Porto
#376 - 2012-08-02 20:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i'll never say the hulk is a bad ship, however it certainly seems to require a lot more effort for things like isk investment, and skills, etc to get the most out of it. however whether or not that is a good or bad thing is another point entirely.


That's... uh... kind of the point of these changes. The Hulk is a high investment*, high reward ship. The Mackinaw and Skiff are both lower investment, lower reward ships.

*In multiple senses of the word.


the reward isn't proportionate to the investment, imo. like i say it takes 7 accounts, give or take, to make it worth switching to hulks + a hauler over mackinaws if you've got orca bonuses in a pos from some one who logs on an orca in a pos and then goes to work/afk all day/whatever, or having a damnation tanking 0.0 rats while running mining links.

i mean, smaller more intimate corps will look at it and go "oh look the hulk is a fleet miner... but we'll get more out of mackinaws in our mining fleet because bob's gone to work today and left is orca in the pos." like i said; there's no advantage to being in a hulk in a fleet over any other type of ship. if the hulk got some kind of bonus for *being in a fleet* eg how mining director works [the 10% yield bonus is only applied when in a fleet] then yeah, it'd have a bonus for being in a fleet.

as it stands being in a fleet doesn't make the hulk better; it just stops it sucking. if this is the only way they can balance it then so be it, i just find it a strange way of working things.


If you're running your fleet inefficiently, you don't get efficient use out of your fleet mining ships? You don't say.

If it takes 7-8 people to make it worth switching in your situation, then use a Mackinaw until you have enough people that it's worth switching or the Orca Pilot shows up. Because in that position, you're deliberately using the Orca inefficiently to gain convenience.

Fleets are about organization, not just bonuses. If your fleet is disorganized, or otherwise inefficient (your most effective hauler being AFK counts as inefficiency), then of course you don't get the best use out of a ship designed to fly in efficient fleets.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#377 - 2012-08-02 20:50:08 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i'll never say the hulk is a bad ship, however it certainly seems to require a lot more effort for things like isk investment, and skills, etc to get the most out of it. however whether or not that is a good or bad thing is another point entirely.


That's... uh... kind of the point of these changes. The Hulk is a high investment*, high reward ship. The Mackinaw and Skiff are both lower investment, lower reward ships.

*In multiple senses of the word.


the reward isn't proportionate to the investment, imo. like i say it takes 7 accounts, give or take, to make it worth switching to hulks + a hauler over mackinaws if you've got orca bonuses in a pos from some one who logs on an orca in a pos and then goes to work/afk all day/whatever, or having a damnation tanking 0.0 rats while running mining links.

i mean, smaller more intimate corps will look at it and go "oh look the hulk is a fleet miner... but we'll get more out of mackinaws in our mining fleet because bob's gone to work today and left is orca in the pos." like i said; there's no advantage to being in a hulk in a fleet over any other type of ship. if the hulk got some kind of bonus for *being in a fleet* eg how mining director works [the 10% yield bonus is only applied when in a fleet] then yeah, it'd have a bonus for being in a fleet.

as it stands being in a fleet doesn't make the hulk better; it just stops it sucking. if this is the only way they can balance it then so be it, i just find it a strange way of working things.


If you're running your fleet inefficiently, you don't get efficient use out of your fleet mining ships? You don't say.

If it takes 7-8 people to make it worth switching in your situation, then use a Mackinaw until you have enough people that it's worth switching or the Orca Pilot shows up. Because in that position, you're deliberately using the Orca inefficiently to gain convenience.

Fleets are about organization, not just bonuses. If your fleet is disorganized, or otherwise inefficient (your most effective hauler being AFK counts as inefficiency), then of course you don't get the best use out of a ship designed to fly in efficient fleets.


so when it comes down to it, the hulk isn't a ship designed to work well in fleets, it's simply designed to work with an orca. which is even worse.

if you simply haven't got an orca then the hulk isn't even a good fleet ship, so it's not even fulfilling it's role. granted we are talking about small mining fleets but i fail to see how a small fleet is any less valid than a large one.
Pipa Porto
#378 - 2012-08-02 20:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Dave stark wrote:


so when it comes down to it, the hulk isn't a ship designed to work well in fleets, it's simply designed to work with an orca. which is even worse.

if you simply haven't got an orca then the hulk isn't even a good fleet ship, so it's not even fulfilling it's role. granted we are talking about small mining fleets but i fail to see how a small fleet is any less valid than a large one.


Works just fine with an Itty V or any other hauler doing the hauling, though the Ratio's not going to be as nice as with an Orca to provide links.

When I say fleets, I'm not just talking about the IG mechanic, I'm talking about the organizational unit with differentiated roles, etc.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave stark
#379 - 2012-08-02 21:16:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
even with being organised, the fact you have to drop a miner to sit in a hauler is really crippling the hulk's efficiency in smaller groups if you're lacking an orca.

when you have an orca once you get to a fleet of 3 (1 orca 2 hulks) you're not going to be outmined by an unsupported mack fleet, or a supported fleet of any kind of mining ship.
however without the orca the hulks are useless until you're at ~7 accounts because you have to drop a miner to sit in a hauler.

i don't really have an issue with it. it just doesn't make the hulk a feet ship, it makes it an orca ship. if that makes sense?
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#380 - 2012-08-02 21:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
woops. snip

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly