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Barge Fairy Tale

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Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#2601 - 2012-08-02 13:13:28 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
You named the things I would have named. They don't have to be something totally different than the 3 exhumers. Just slightly different styles of ships. Faster ships, super long range ships, doesn't matter...give them different looks, sizes, and slight changes from the pre existing exhumers and you at least give more variety and choices of ships to choose from. This could really apply to all categories of ships, I can't see more variety in the ways mentioned above being a bad thing. The universe is huge, I just think seeing the same handful of ships doing everything gets a little old.


Except for the combat implications, I wouldn't care if all mining barges had unlimited lock ranges and could motor around at 100km/s.

The reason there aren't variety is that 99% of miners will either pick a Tanky Mining ship, a Convenient Mining ship, or a high Yield Mining ship because there's no rational reason to care about any other stat. There's no reason to bother spending a huge amount of Dev and Art team time on ships that nobody's going to use.

The bad thing is that variety takes an enormous amount of Dev and Art Dept time.

If you want something other than the 6 mining barges, you've got plenty of choices. You can mine in any ship that can fit drones or has a turret slot. Since you don't care about Yield, they'll all work great and that gives you an enormous amount of variety.


But I like strip miners :( so choices are rather limited.
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2602 - 2012-08-02 15:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
After discussing this with a senior colleague we have decided to unlock this thread. I apologise for the delay in re-opening it thread, but some subjects can be quite difficult to manage. Everyone here wants nothing more than to see good, solid discussions taking place, especially when it comes to changes to the game we all love, and hopefully we are getting closer to seeing that dream realised.

Baring that in mind I would like to remind everyone that trolling and non-constructive posting is not allowed on these forums, so please post responsibly and help keep these forums somewhere we can all be proud of. This thread has been cleaned of some more troll and off topic posts and is ready to be used again, so have at it.

Thank you for your patience - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2603 - 2012-08-02 20:23:26 UTC
Putting the thread back to the front page - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Pipa Porto
#2604 - 2012-08-02 20:25:07 UTC
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
Thank you for your patience - ISD Type40.


Thanks very much for your patience in cleaning and scrubbing the thread repeatedly.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#2605 - 2012-08-02 20:27:24 UTC
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:
You named the things I would have named. They don't have to be something totally different than the 3 exhumers. Just slightly different styles of ships. Faster ships, super long range ships, doesn't matter...give them different looks, sizes, and slight changes from the pre existing exhumers and you at least give more variety and choices of ships to choose from. This could really apply to all categories of ships, I can't see more variety in the ways mentioned above being a bad thing. The universe is huge, I just think seeing the same handful of ships doing everything gets a little old.


Except for the combat implications, I wouldn't care if all mining barges had unlimited lock ranges and could motor around at 100km/s.

The reason there aren't variety is that 99% of miners will either pick a Tanky Mining ship, a Convenient Mining ship, or a high Yield Mining ship because there's no rational reason to care about any other stat. There's no reason to bother spending a huge amount of Dev and Art team time on ships that nobody's going to use.

The bad thing is that variety takes an enormous amount of Dev and Art Dept time.

If you want something other than the 6 mining barges, you've got plenty of choices. You can mine in any ship that can fit drones or has a turret slot. Since you don't care about Yield, they'll all work great and that gives you an enormous amount of variety.


But I like strip miners :( so choices are rather limited.


I thought you didn't care about Yield, and the only significant difference between strip miners and Mining lasers is yield.

So yes, if you limit yourself to high yield ships, your choices are limited, because there are so few variables affecting the usefulness of a mining ship besides Yield, Cargo, and Tank (actually, there are no variables affecting the usefulness of a mining ship besides those three things).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2606 - 2012-08-02 20:28:41 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
Thank you for your patience - ISD Type40.


Thanks very much for your patience in cleaning and scrubbing the thread repeatedly.



You are most welcome. Happy posting.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Pipa Porto
#2607 - 2012-08-02 20:32:30 UTC
Jagoff Haverford wrote:

2. Shouldn't Hulk be given 3 times more space for crystals than the Skiff, since it has 3 times more strip miners? Or at least twice as much?


The Skiff's designed to be somewhat self sufficient. The Hulk is designed to rely on other ships to allow it to focus solely on mining yield.

Compare RL mining equipment. The biggest equipment, capable of shoveling vast amount of Ore can't actually do anything under their own power. They have to be hooked up to an electrical grid, they need a fleet of Dump trucks to keep up with their output, they need constant maintenance, they have to be disassembled to move any sort of distance, they're generally an incredible pain to set up, but they compensate by moving more earth than any other machine.

Smaller equipment is much less reliant on other equipment, but doesn't move as much earth.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Arec Bardwin
#2608 - 2012-08-02 20:35:33 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
Thank you for your patience - ISD Type40.


Thanks very much for your patience in cleaning and scrubbing the thread repeatedly.
Too bad all the tears, snot and phlegm from the gankers, really made the thread come alive Cry
Hypercake Mix
#2609 - 2012-08-02 20:36:55 UTC
I think they need to bring the tank of the Exhumers up a few more notches. We still don't know what the Destroyer rebalancing and beyond will bring.
Jim Era
#2610 - 2012-08-02 20:37:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jim Era
Buff exhumers more imo. Its not enough.

Wat™
Anvil44
Avedis Corporation
The Vanguard Syndicate
#2611 - 2012-08-02 20:38:03 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jagoff Haverford wrote:

2. Shouldn't Hulk be given 3 times more space for crystals than the Skiff, since it has 3 times more strip miners? Or at least twice as much?


The Skiff's designed to be somewhat self sufficient. The Hulk is designed to rely on other ships to allow it to focus solely on mining yield.

Compare RL mining equipment. The biggest equipment, capable of shoveling vast amount of Ore can't actually do anything under their own power. They have to be hooked up to an electrical grid, they need a fleet of Dump trucks to keep up with their output, they need constant maintenance, they have to be disassembled to move any sort of distance, they're generally an incredible pain to set up, but they compensate by moving more earth than any other machine.

Smaller equipment is much less reliant on other equipment, but doesn't move as much earth.

That....is a good example. +1 from me.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Anvil44
Avedis Corporation
The Vanguard Syndicate
#2612 - 2012-08-02 20:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Anvil44
Hypercake Mix wrote:
I think they need to bring the tank of the Exhumers up a few more notches. We still don't know what the Destroyer rebalancing and beyond will bring.

This sure sounds like troll to me...however, I will bite. What destroyer rebalancing are you referring to? I haven't heard of anything to change what was done not too long ago.

The more I think on things, the more I would like to see being able to buff exhumers by choice as opposed to such a huge jump on the inherent tanks. They did need some improving for sure, (excluding Hulk) but doing too much of it for the miners is not right. Give them the good base that a nice solid ship should have (it should be strong and bulky by nature, able to stand up to a fair bit of damage by sheer bulk) but nothing too extreme. Then perhaps give them special bonuses for PowerGrid and/or CPU bonus when using specific types of modules, much as the latest BCs have it with their BS sized guns. So a miner can choose between maximum yield or that great tank...or a nice balance.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Pipa Porto
#2613 - 2012-08-02 20:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Hypercake Mix wrote:
I think they need to bring the tank of the Exhumers up a few more notches. We still don't know what the Destroyer rebalancing and beyond will bring.


The Skiff can put up some 80k EHP with MLUs. That's plenty of Tank for any imaginable mining situation.

The point of the change is so that you change ships when your needs change, not just change fits.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Hypercake Mix
#2614 - 2012-08-02 20:48:53 UTC
Anvil44 wrote:
Hypercake Mix wrote:
I think they need to bring the tank of the Exhumers up a few more notches. We still don't know what the Destroyer rebalancing and beyond will bring.

This sure sounds like troll to me...however, I will bite. What destroyer rebalancing are you referring to? I haven't heard of anything to change what was done not too long ago.

The more I think on things, the more I would like to see being able to buff exhumers by choice as opposed to such a huge jump on the inherent tanks. They did need some improving for sure, (excluding Hulk) but doing too much of it for the miners is not right. Give them the good base that a nice solid ship should have (it should be strong and bulky by nature, able to stand up to a fair bit of damage by sheer bulk) but nothing too extreme. Then perhaps give them special bonuses for PowerGrid and/or CPU bonus when using specific types of modules, much as the latest BCs have it with their BS sized guns. So a miner can choose between maximum yield or that great tank...or a nice balance.


The whole Tiericide thing? They're going up from Frigates and slowly making every ship worth flying? The thing where they're thinking of splitting Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills into separate racial skills? The possibility of having more T1 Destroyers exist in the future?
Pipa Porto
#2615 - 2012-08-02 20:55:14 UTC
Hypercake Mix wrote:
The whole Tiericide thing? They're going up from Frigates and slowly making every ship worth flying? The thing where they're thinking of splitting Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills into separate racial skills? The possibility of having more T1 Destroyers exist in the future?


Somehow I doubt any of the new Dessies will be 5 times cheaper or 5 times gankier (at the same price) to make the Skiff a viable gank target.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Anvil44
Avedis Corporation
The Vanguard Syndicate
#2616 - 2012-08-02 20:56:14 UTC
Hypercake Mix wrote:
Anvil44 wrote:
Hypercake Mix wrote:
I think they need to bring the tank of the Exhumers up a few more notches. We still don't know what the Destroyer rebalancing and beyond will bring.

This sure sounds like troll to me...however, I will bite. What destroyer rebalancing are you referring to? I haven't heard of anything to change what was done not too long ago.

The more I think on things, the more I would like to see being able to buff exhumers by choice as opposed to such a huge jump on the inherent tanks. They did need some improving for sure, (excluding Hulk) but doing too much of it for the miners is not right. Give them the good base that a nice solid ship should have (it should be strong and bulky by nature, able to stand up to a fair bit of damage by sheer bulk) but nothing too extreme. Then perhaps give them special bonuses for PowerGrid and/or CPU bonus when using specific types of modules, much as the latest BCs have it with their BS sized guns. So a miner can choose between maximum yield or that great tank...or a nice balance.


The whole Tiericide thing? They're going up from Frigates and slowly making every ship worth flying? The thing where they're thinking of splitting Destroyers and Battlecruisers skills into separate racial skills? The possibility of having more T1 Destroyers exist in the future?

Ah that skill split off. Don't see that specifically as causing buff nor nerf. Possibility of future destroyers happening? Well, that's the same as saying they are thinking of coming up with more exhumers. No details = no worries. If they were saying "we're looking at another destroyer designed around using medium sized guns - perfect for high alphas" then I would be worried. As it is now, there is too little information to worry about or to allow one to begin designing some sort of 'ship design response' to deal with this perceived threat.

I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2617 - 2012-08-02 21:00:42 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Skiff can put up some 80k EHP with MLUs.


Assuming no fleet boost and overheating. No, it can't with T1 shield resists profile.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#2618 - 2012-08-02 21:06:37 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Skiff can put up some 80k EHP with MLUs.


Assuming no fleet boost and overheating. No, it can't with T1 shield resists profile.


Show some proof. You come onto these forums and post but never bask them up. You were already proved wrong in a different forum when you said that the Hulk had a 25% reduction in EHP.
Pipa Porto
#2619 - 2012-08-02 21:09:06 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Skiff can put up some 80k EHP with MLUs.


Assuming no fleet boost and overheating. No, it can't with T1 shield resists profile.


I'm repeating numbers from a thread with people who have modified their Pyfa.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Hypercake Mix
#2620 - 2012-08-02 21:13:35 UTC
Anvil44 wrote:
Ah that skill split off. Don't see that specifically as causing buff nor nerf. Possibility of future destroyers happening? Well, that's the same as saying they are thinking of coming up with more exhumers. No details = no worries. If they were saying "we're looking at another destroyer designed around using medium sized guns - perfect for high alphas" then I would be worried. As it is now, there is too little information to worry about or to allow one to begin designing some sort of 'ship design response' to deal with this perceived threat.

If they're designing the EHP of Hulks, Mackinaws, Covetors, and Retrievers around suicide ganking, while designing the Skiff and Procurer to survive fights in low-sec and beyond, the appearance of a medium gun destroyer would mean having to redo the those EHP numbers again, requiring CCP's math squad to set aside work-hours to essentially redo something they just recently did. IF the EHP was designed around suicide ganking. But yeah. Doing something and then redoing shortly after is bad design and wasted resources that could be better put to use say... making Orca's fully scanable.