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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Exploit? CCP response requested .

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Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2012-08-02 18:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
For crying out loud. This is not a bug. It's simply a side-effect of session change mechanics.

Once a person begins a session change, not even the Flying Spaghetti Monster can break that person out of it. The person who initiated the session change cannot break out of it. Nothing external can break that person out of it.

This is how jumpgates, wormholes and acceleration gates work.

It's not like CCP hasn't known about this for years. It's their mechanic. If they haven't deemed to change the mechanic, then it's not a bug and it certainly isn't an exploit.

If DurrDurrDurr didn't know about this mechanic (which I still doubt), it doesn't suddenly make it a bug. Is everything he doesn't know about this game a bug or an exploit?

Every person in FW knows about this mechanic. FCs call out to spam the activate button on any warp-in to an accel gate when it is known that enemies are camping it. I do not believe for a second that this only happens on the Minmatar side. It happens the same with every faction. If enemies are camping an accel gate, FCs in every faction are going to call out over comms to spam the activate button. This pushes everyone into a session change before the enemy can react.

I doubt CCP will do anything about this at all. Session change mechanics are a deep piece of code, and to make changes here would likely require a tremendous amount of work (they can weigh in on this themselves, but I cannot imagine it is not true, or else they would have changed this years ago.)

As for Hans. He doesn't FC. He is a player like any other player. He uses the same mechanics as the rest of us. The manner in which jumpgates, wormholes and acceleration gates work is just another mechanic that players can use and should use.


This whole kerfuffle is an exceptionally disingenuous piece of grandstanding and propaganda by DurrDurrDurr. I realize he loves his meta-game and believes himself to be a master of it ... but this stink he's trying to raise over a non-issue ... it is really beneath him.
Sokor Loro
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-08-02 18:28:52 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
For crying out loud. This is not a bug.
Every person in FW knows about this mechanic. FCs call out to spam the activate button on any warp-in to an accel gate when it is known that enemies are camping it. I do not believe for a second that this only happens on the Minmatar side. It happens the same with every faction. If enemies are camping an accel gate, FCs in every faction are going to call out over comms to spam the activate button. This pushes everyone into a session change before the enemy can react.


I'm a new-er FW player in a new-er FW alliance, but I have never heard this even talked about in comms, much less told to do. There was genuine shock and surprise by everyone in Fweddit comms, and as far as I know no one spoke up to tell anyone it was intended. People assumed it was a bug that developed in one of the inferno patches. I've honestly begun to think this is just a misunderstanding.
Rezig Huruta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-08-02 18:30:17 UTC
Callous Jade wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls.



So why not just do away with the acceleration gates all together and make it impossible for an over-sized ship to warp to those plexes? Seriously, I find it hard to believe that you are stupid enough to believe the crap that comes out of your own mouth sometimes, Vordak.


Because Vordak didn't design the system, he's stating that the acceleration gate serves the purpose of ship restriction, which is important to maintain.

Doing away with the acceleration gate would be awesome, but I imagine it would require huge change in the code. Remember, plexes are spawned as discrete entities when scanned. They are 'instances' and are based on rules different than a moon (for example) or a grav site (both which have no restrictions to ship class).

The acceleration gate code is based off the ones used in missions to restrict ship class. CCP already HAS a module (in the code that makes up Eve) that restricts ships. Why would they create a NEW METHOD to solve a problem they already have a solution to?

Just because you can say it, doesn't mean that it can be done within the confines of programming.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-08-02 18:56:56 UTC
If everyone wants acceleration gate camping to be a viable tactic (and I wouldn't disagree with the desire for this), then simply have the warp-in point on acceleration gates be X km from the 0 km border. Basically, everyone has to travel at least (X - 2.5) km before they can activate the gate.

That seems like a simple and doable solution for CCP.

(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-08-02 19:04:58 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:


(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)


Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho
Gritz1
Ice Fire Warriors
#66 - 2012-08-02 19:07:26 UTC
Im pretty sure we didnt make a post when the amarr were doing this constantly, including fweddit, in front of our faces.
Vordak Kallager
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#67 - 2012-08-02 19:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vordak Kallager
Callous Jade wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
What would the point be of even having ship-restricted combat PLEXes (always a defining feature of Faction Warfare) if the acceleration gates didn't work like this? It would more or less eliminate their usefulness as a tool to manage bigger numbers and bigger hulls.



So why not just do away with the acceleration gates all together and make it impossible for an over-sized ship to warp to those plexes? Seriously, I find it hard to believe that you are stupid enough to believe the crap that comes out of your own mouth sometimes, Vordak.


Yeah, that would be fine too. Not sure why you think what I said is stupid, but whatever man.

EDIT - Rezig pointed out a few posts above this that changing this mechanic to simply bypass the whole acceleration gate be a) fixing something that isn't broke (waste of Dev time) and b) changing something that is probably buried in years of code and would be hard to do from a programming perspective. Good point, Rez.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Vordak Kallager
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#68 - 2012-08-02 19:12:14 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:


(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)


Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho


I agree this is odd. Warping to 0 puts you right on top of the structure itself which can then get in the way of your alignment and prevent you from warping. Warping to 10 puts you within it's activation radius but far enough away that you dont get yourself caught on the physical structure of the acceleration gate itself.

As for Fweddit (in general) not knowing about this mechanic... you are new to Faction Warfare and you learn something new every day. The more you know, or what ever.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-08-02 19:14:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:


(You have to be within 2.5km of an accel gate to activate it correct? If not, adjust the equation above with the correct value.)


Warping to 10 and you still count as if you warped to 0 and lets you activate the gate which is very odd imho
I stated the 0 km border for a reason.

CCP has simply wrapped the acceleration gate in a very large ellipsoid. Anything within that ellipsoid is 0 km.

My suggestion is to set the warp-in point X km outside the border of that ellipsoid.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#70 - 2012-08-02 19:22:10 UTC
Two step wrote:
My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.



I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this.

Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump.

The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself.

This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Callous Jade
Dockturnal Bromance
#71 - 2012-08-02 19:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Callous Jade
Cearain wrote:
Two step wrote:
My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.



I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this.

Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump.

The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself.

This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.


This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate.

If this mechanic is justified, then a thrasher, having undocked from station and warped to a minor plex within that system, is essentially 100% immune to risk from anything larger than itself for the entire time it is in space, which in my mind is counter to the spirit and nature of Eve.
Vordak Kallager
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#72 - 2012-08-02 19:50:39 UTC
Callous Jade wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Two step wrote:
My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.



I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this.

Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump.

The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself.

This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.


This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate.


*yawn*

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2012-08-02 19:53:49 UTC
Callous Jade wrote:
The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad.
I agree with this. Unfortunately, the current acceleration gate mechanics do not support this sort of tactic.

I've outlined a suggestion above that would make this tactic viable.
Callous Jade
Dockturnal Bromance
#74 - 2012-08-02 19:55:58 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Callous Jade wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Two step wrote:
My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.



I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this.

Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump.

The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself.

This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.


This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate.


*yawn*


Right on par with the strength of most of your arguments, V..
Vordak Kallager
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#75 - 2012-08-02 19:58:47 UTC
Callous Jade wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Callous Jade wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Two step wrote:
My personal opinion is that this seems like a bug, and it should be fixed. I'll leave the exploit determination to CCP.



I would ask that you reconsider this. The point of having these restrictions is to encourage combat with a variety of ships. Having gangs camp accelleration gates ruins this.

Also it doesn't work entirely like a normal system gate. If you get scrammed before you hit the jump button you are scrammed. So if you for example burn toward an enemy at the accell gate and get scrammed you can not then just decide to jump.

The "bug" if it is a bug, works especially well when your ship ends up getting caught in the gate itself.

This is working as it should work. If people want to fight then get in the right ship for the plex and fight inside the plex.


This is a poor argument and stinks of desire for a theme park/arena atmosphere in FW. The restrictions INSIDE the plex should be the limitation of this mechanic and if you cannot safely get your ship through the accel gate, too damn bad. As a defender, you already have the advantage of docking rights and thus being able to ship up/down and reship faster than an attacking fleet which, by virtue of this buggy mechanic, has no alternative than to jump out of system, reship, jump back (while facing the risk of tackle at each jump) and then warp into the plex where the defending force is already setup at range and having loaded grid. If the opposing force alreadt in system, albeit oversized, beats the defending fleet to the accel gate then you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate.


*yawn*


Right on par with the strength of most of your arguments, V..


That's nice.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#76 - 2012-08-02 20:26:06 UTC
I have to agree with Vordak. I get like halfway through that crap Callous Jade calls a post and I just can't stop myself from yawning.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Real Poison
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-08-02 20:27:52 UTC
Callous Jade wrote:
... you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate....


Yeah every Player should have the right to get free kills of other Players.
That's what you're paying CCP for, right?

Also CCP should make your opponents dumb enough so they always fall for your cheap traps.
You're a paying customer! You deserve it!

Pirate
Bezerk'ah Vulkan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-08-02 22:20:23 UTC
So...to not exploit...if i warp to a accel gate and a war target is there...i should just stay still for him to tackle me...is that it? what if the war target had fall asleep camping...should i wait untill he wakes up? or should i shoot him a bit in hope that the alarm of low shields wake him up, then let him tackle me? ... i'm confused on how to deal with this without exploiting
Fiachra Shine
Pariah Army
#79 - 2012-08-02 23:24:47 UTC
Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:
...or should i shoot him a bit in hope that the alarm of low shields wake him up, then let him tackle me? ...


I thought fitting weapons to your highs was an exploit Straight
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#80 - 2012-08-02 23:40:55 UTC
Real Poison wrote:
Callous Jade wrote:
... you SHOULD run the risk of losing several ships to fast tackle while trying to crash the gate....


Yeah every Player should have the right to get free kills of other Players.
That's what you're paying CCP for, right?

Also CCP should make your opponents dumb enough so they always fall for your cheap traps.
You're a paying customer! You deserve it!

Pirate


It has nothing to do with taking away free kills, its about taking away a get out of jail free card. If a player is too dumb to warp to an acceleration gate without checking d-scan he should die.

The moar you cry the less you pee