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The hulk has a touch too little tank still
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Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#1 - 2012-08-01 16:13:04 UTC
when you nerfed the tank back down you nerfed it back down too hard.. with the current set of changes it is still too easy ot suicide a hulk.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-08-01 16:58:58 UTC
I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#3 - 2012-08-02 07:47:43 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic.


It's a fleet ship now - it doesn't need a tank... Roll
Dave Stark
#4 - 2012-08-02 07:56:51 UTC
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic.


It's a fleet ship now - it doesn't need a tank... Roll


yep, rats will always be polite and target some thing that isn't the hulks....
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-08-02 08:25:29 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic.


It's a fleet ship now - it doesn't need a tank... Roll


yep, rats will always be polite and target some thing that isn't the hulks....


I've had really strange experiences with belt rats. They always seem to attack weakest ship on belt. I've tested this with Covetor and assault frig. They always went for Covetor.
Dave Stark
#6 - 2012-08-02 09:00:29 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic.


It's a fleet ship now - it doesn't need a tank... Roll


yep, rats will always be polite and target some thing that isn't the hulks....


I've had really strange experiences with belt rats. They always seem to attack weakest ship on belt. I've tested this with Covetor and assault frig. They always went for Covetor.


tried it with a battleship? they could be going for the "biggest" ship.
or the closest.
or the one with the least ehp
or... a myriad of other reasons.

the issue is if you're in a belt and rats warp in and lock up the mining ships, unless they can tank it they're going to have to warp out unless you've got some substantial dps guarding them. which is another ship that could be mining, which means dropping hulks for higher ehp ships like macks and further making the issue of "1 ship beats them all" again, however now it's the mack not the hulk.

lowering ship ehp is just going to further push the mack in to the hulk's old crown.
Yui Okane-Mochi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-08-02 10:43:05 UTC
While I think the initial buff was excessive, nerfing both resists and base HP simultaneously on the following stat revision was a bit excessive.

It needs the 7.5% per level resists back.

結衣
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#8 - 2012-08-02 12:28:29 UTC
Another nerf on the Hulk, it was hardly over powered to big with.

These are NOT combat ships they run active tanks and have to be able to tank the RATS in null.
If they can't do that without compromising the yield they are useless.

Trying to use PvP standards on these ships to create a baseline will destroy them.
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#9 - 2012-08-02 13:31:14 UTC
I think pushing for a bigger tank on the Hulk is a lost cause. If you want tank, maybe you need a Skiff in your mining op carrying a set of medium drones. It probably can't tank the rats indefinitely but it can kill them. Rorqual with shield transporter would also help.

You could also try to out-and-out kill 0.0 rat spawns instead of tanking them.
Doddy
Excidium.
#10 - 2012-08-02 13:32:13 UTC
Have miners in eve really dumbed down so much that they don't know how to control belt rat aggo?
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#11 - 2012-08-02 14:27:07 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Have miners in eve really dumbed down so much that they don't know how to control belt rat aggo?


No most miners still can not get there head around the fact that there will not be an alpha miner anymore and they are still wanting a max tank max yield ship. With the current SiSi stats you can put a 22k EPH tank on a hulk this is more then enough Hp for a fleet operation. If you do not think that this is enough fly a Skiff or Mak in Fleet then as they will have more EHP but at a cost of the highest yeild. I know people are going to flame away at this but I think the Mak should have a slight reduction to EHP so it makes the Skiff more viable to fly.
Doddy
Excidium.
#12 - 2012-08-02 14:32:22 UTC
I remember when the key man in a mining fleet was the ferox who could tank the belt while still running a rack of miners. Then people moved up to the vulture who could provide the mining bonuses, tank the belt and run a full rack of miners. Then ccp spoiled miners by giving them the orca which can tank the belt, give bonuses and store the ore. Yet still they complain.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#13 - 2012-08-02 14:35:50 UTC
Well now if they want to tank the belt rats they can put someone in a skiff any only lose ~15% yield from a hulk which is still a nice amount of Ore mined an hour. Yes a skiff can tank 0.0 Rats easily and still have 2 MLU's in the lows.
Doddy
Excidium.
#14 - 2012-08-02 14:52:51 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Well now if they want to tank the belt rats they can put someone in a skiff any only lose ~15% yield from a hulk which is still a nice amount of Ore mined an hour. Yes a skiff can tank 0.0 Rats easily and still have 2 MLU's in the lows.


Yep, but they won't.
Dave Stark
#15 - 2012-08-02 15:01:27 UTC
Doddy wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Well now if they want to tank the belt rats they can put someone in a skiff any only lose ~15% yield from a hulk which is still a nice amount of Ore mined an hour. Yes a skiff can tank 0.0 Rats easily and still have 2 MLU's in the lows.


Yep, but they won't.


correct, because the hulk can already tank the belt rats, even more so if the other hulk's have logi drones.

if the hulk can't tank belt rats after the change then the nerfs have gone too far, especially based on the fact ccp want exhumers to be less paper thin.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#16 - 2012-08-02 15:03:57 UTC
If the numbers on Sisi are correct they will be able to as the numbers don't change much. Now will people fit them correctly is another question.
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
#17 - 2012-08-02 15:46:48 UTC
Draconyx wrote:

Trying to use PvP standards on these ships to create a baseline will destroy them.


Surely then, these changes shouldn't be happening at all? Lol
Hypercake Mix
#18 - 2012-08-02 16:04:18 UTC
Because the loudest of the community wants mining to consist of high amounts of complexity and minimal fun while still maximizing the fun of blowing up miners.

Because a ship named "Hulk" should be the glass shovel of EVE.

You know... that whole "this is why we can't have nice things" thing.

They still wonder why people don't leave high-sec too.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#19 - 2012-08-02 16:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Draconyx
Soi Mala wrote:
Draconyx wrote:

Trying to use PvP standards on these ships to create a baseline will destroy them.


Surely then, these changes shouldn't be happening at all? Lol



Well considering we are talking about a Hulk that you could put a decent tank on with a Gistii B small shield booster (T2 small doesn't cut it) and in most case a 3% implant things where tight before.

What made it usable in null was the resistances.
CCP hasn't done anything to the Hulk so far other then nerf the ship.

The few HP's they have given the ship does very little to nothing.

IF the hulk is supposed to be the standard well things are not looking very good.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#20 - 2012-08-02 19:37:28 UTC
I don't think anyone in here understands what 'tiericide' means. There's no "standard" mining ship anymore. At all. You now have three choices for which mining vessel you want to fly, and which one you take for the task will be depend on whether or not you want better mining efficiency, ore capacity or defensive capability.

You're all used to the Hulk being the top tier mining barge, and it was simply the best at everything. You are clinging to old ideas and hoping they don't stop being truths. After tiericide, the differentiating factors will be the roles of the ship, and how their stats correlate with them. The Hulk is the best when it comes to pulling ore out of asteroids. The Mackinaw has the best ore bay, and the Skiff (I'm pretty sure that's the one) is the most hardened and likely meant more for solo mining the way all of you want your hulks to fly like. Hell, if I remember right the Skiff even has bonuses to it's strip miners or whatever so that it mines comparably to the other two despite only having one hardpoint to put the thing on. That should mean something.
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