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FW IS FINE L2P
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Lexmana
#1 - 2012-08-01 14:32:06 UTC
Ahahaha just kidding FW-plexing is completely broken and we’re going to fix that starting in Inferno 1.x

That is the devblog I want to see.

I think most players will agree with me that the change to FW brought many good things. There is PvP to be found almost everywhere and claiming sovereignty actually means something now. The latest example of that is the battle of Kourmonen, a system that holds great strategic value for both teams, where Amarr came out victorious. There are alot of players that care about FW today.

Also, the WTC tier system is interesting and creates incentive for the militias to work for a common goal. And there is ISK (i.e. LP) to be made from it so that FW players can fund their expensive PvP habits. The current mechanics even allow for a much weaker team to fight back by stacking vulnerable systems and then flipping them all at once, overwhelming even a much stronger opponent.

All in all I think the new FW mechanics are a great success. With one notable exception. Plexing!

The most efficient way to plex is solo in small fast ships WITHOUT EVEN FITTING GUNS. This has resulted in a huge flood of farmers and alts to the militias that plex only to make LP/ISK. They are not interested in winning the war or even defend strategically important resources. The only ships they are willing to risk are rifters, merlins and tormentors with empty highslots.

At the same time the armed forces of the Militias are putting Billions of ISK at risk to fight enemy players and to try to win the war. But the irony is that the deciding force in the sovereignty war are the gunless farmers. And for that they are rewarded with huge piles of LP from the NPC militias. It is almost as they want everybody to lay down their weapons and fly gunless ships.

This is a petition to CCP to look at plexing mechanics with the objective to make them reward players flying in PvP capable ships.

Do it!
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#2 - 2012-08-01 15:08:10 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Ahahaha just kidding FW-plexing is completely broken and we’re going to fix that starting in Inferno 1.x

That is the devblog I want to see.

I think most players will agree with me that the change to FW brought many good things. There is PvP to be found almost everywhere and claiming sovereignty actually means something now. The latest example of that is the battle of Kourmonen, a system that holds great strategic value for both teams, where Amarr came out victorious. There are alot of players that care about FW today.

Also, the WTC tier system is interesting and creates incentive for the militias to work for a common goal. And there is ISK (i.e. LP) to be made from it so that FW players can fund their expensive PvP habits. The current mechanics even allow for a much weaker team to fight back by stacking vulnerable systems and then flipping them all at once, overwhelming even a much stronger opponent.

All in all I think the new FW mechanics are a great success. With one notable exception. Plexing!

The most efficient way to plex is solo in small fast ships WITHOUT EVEN FITTING GUNS. This has resulted in a huge flood of farmers and alts to the militias that plex only to make LP/ISK. They are not interested in winning the war or even defend strategically important resources. The only ships they are willing to risk are rifters, merlins and tormentors with empty highslots.

At the same time the armed forces of the Militias are putting Billions of ISK at risk to fight enemy players and to try to win the war. But the irony is that the deciding force in the sovereignty war are the gunless farmers. And for that they are rewarded with huge piles of LP from the NPC militias. It is almost as they want everybody to lay down their weapons and fly gunless ships.

This is a petition to CCP to look at plexing mechanics with the objective to make them reward players flying in PvP capable ships.

Do it!



cough ... blobfest ... no motivation to small gang except for plex farm....cough

cough ... disballanced tier system if u overtake whole battlefield .... cough

well it is my private opinion that old lady is broken ....
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-08-01 15:15:54 UTC
I posted this thread in feedback last night. Agree or disagree, I don't care. Just please everyone go post something so perhaps they will pay attention. :

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=139185&find=unread

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#4 - 2012-08-01 15:43:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Well I'd like to see a change to plexing mechanics that requires a certain hull class to be present to begin the countdown (frigates/dessies in minors - cruisers in mediums and battlecruisers in large)

I'd also like to see some plex rats warp scramble to ensure that solo players (farmers) can't just ignore them and warp away when challenged.

I'm tempted to say that all plex rats should be killed to begin the capture but that might be a bit boring. On balance I think that decision is best left to the people plexing as to whether they want to do it to clear the field for potential pvp (clear warp scrambling)

Maybe. The plex bunker itself could have an area warp disruptor that stretches 1.5x as much as the capture radius to make the fights a bit stickier in range of the button.

I think in addition this "infinitely vulnerable" thing is a bit stupid. Its silly that people get lp's for plexing beyond vulnerable. I wonder if a compromise solution might be to make vulnerable status deny docking in system to EVERYONE until the occupancy battle is resolved / system decontested (this to make people take vulnerability itself very seriously) and force both sides to fight such battles without in system reinforcements. I think perhaps having an exception to the no lp for defensive plexing rule (ie you get LP for defensive plexing a system from vulnerable to non vulnerable only) might keep the focus on keenly fought over systems (and provide more targets for everyone.)

I'd love to see vulnerable status announced with claxons and warning sirens and lighting effects (aka incursions) for additional eye candy (as a nice to have).

Longer term, I really thing the system upgrades need to be a) improved and made more useful/exciting/strategically-diverse - and b) more resistant to be being lost.

The problem with them at the moment is they are pretty crap, and generally impossible to defend effectively anyway so as a consequence people don't really care about them.

I think if we moved to an alternative where the system upgrades don't degrade naturally with offensive plexing might be better all round - perhaps have the upgrades lost at the rate of 1 level an hour when then system goes vulnerable or something.

This would have the effect of boosting all militias potential tiers of course and perhaps making people care more about protecting the upgrades - but of course you'd still need some more exciting upgrades to begin with. I think the real challenge for CCP is to hit the correct risk / reward balance to convince militia fighters they want to live in lowsec for strategic advantages of the upgrade system and actually feel they can defend them.

The current system where you just ignore aggressive plexing on the grounds that you can replace any damage done more effectively with an hour of mission running is just rubbish.

Finally.

More LPs for bunker flipping (much more)
Similar for bringing a system back from Vulnerable.
More LPs for plexing (but coupled with the changes above ie bigger hulls and warp scrambling rats)
Less LP's for missioning in general (much less)

I'd like to say more LP's for PVP period (but somebody cleverer than me would need to find a way of doing it so the goons can't exploit it to hell and back again).

General tier system for payouts could do with being smoothed out a bit.

tier 1 should be 200% normal price *
tier 2 should be 150% normal price *
tier 3 should be 100% normal price
tier 4 should be 75% normal price *
tier 5 should be 50% normal price *

These tiers should have a wider impact on transaction taxes in the related hisec region. F.ex. If TLF dips to warzone control 1 then I'd like to see penalty transaction taxes of a few percent levied in minmatar hisec to represent the Minmatar republic needing to divert funds to its war effort.

Conversely doing well in FW should give a bonus transaction tax reduction in the associated hisec.

NB. (obviously delay the last payout rate changes until the Amarr have gotten and cashed out their tier 5 store because fair is fair after all) Cool

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Lexmana
#5 - 2012-08-01 16:28:43 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Well I'd like to see a change to plexing mechanics that requires a certain hull class to be present to begin the countdown (frigates/dessies in minors - cruisers in mediums and battlecruisers in large)

I'd also like to see some plex rats warp scramble to ensure that solo players (farmers) can't just ignore them and warp away when challenged.

I'm tempted to say that all plex rats should be killed to begin the capture but that might be a bit boring. On balance I think that decision is best left to the people plexing as to whether they want to do it to clear the field for potential pvp (clear warp scrambling)

Maybe. The plex bunker itself could have an area warp disruptor that stretches 1.5x as much as the capture radius to make the fights a bit stickier in range of the button.


I like these ideas. Kill all rats is a simple and popular solution that I myself have advocated but if there was another way to do it I am all for it.
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#6 - 2012-08-01 17:37:50 UTC
You have guns, they don't. I don't see a problem with the farmers, just the people that are complaining about them.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-08-01 17:58:02 UTC
remove plex timer and must kill all rats
Solomar Espersei
Quality Assurance
#8 - 2012-08-01 18:34:13 UTC
From what I've seen, Low Sec is now loaded with people compared to the days before the FW changes, so at least on that front (the drive to get players out of High Sec and into Low/Null) this seems to be working as intended.

Quality Assurance Recruiting intrepid explorers and BlOps/Cov Ops combat enthusiasts
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#9 - 2012-08-01 18:56:44 UTC
Schalac wrote:
You have guns, they don't. I don't see a problem with the farmers, just the people that are complaining about them.



You are right that the problem isn't the lack of guns. FW won't be any better if all these pve ships that warp off have guns. The problem is and always has been that plexing is most efficiently done in a pve ship.

In order for me to do a major plex in anything other than a drake I need to pve my ship so much that I might as well not have guns when an enemy comes.

People are focusing too much on gunless when the actual problem is its just pve, guns or not.

The most obvious solution is in my signature.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#10 - 2012-08-01 19:00:08 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
remove plex timer and must kill all rats



We already were in that situation for amarr, before they removed painters. Plexing was still best done in a pve ship.

If you think fw will be much better if we watch pve ships with guns warp off, instead of pve ships without guns then this will work. Otherwise it won't fix it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Bezerk'ah Vulkan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-08-01 19:26:53 UTC
The problem isn't farmers being in pve ships, or without guns, or warping away...a farmer is a farmer, and i can easily detect some of them right here in this thread.

If they don't want to fight they won't fight...sometimes even after getting tackled...some just die, don't even shoot back.

The problem is that FW right now is all about the warzone control, thus plexing, and this is being done by 1 day alts, in fact it's so easy to make them, that some guys just have alts in all militias waiting for a slight sight of a good tier control, to start plexing for this or that militia! If you know that a faction is close to reach the desired tier, 1 week of plexing is more than enough to make a lot of ISK...and this by a 1 day toon!

Some ideas here MUST be introduce in game, for one, the killing rats part! Boring? not more than having to be there for the time to run out...oh wait...ofc! "Then u can't actually be afk, bad idea! - Farmer"

We that actually play for fun/pvp/make isk out of it...we plex also and we do kill the rats cause when trouble comes in you dont want that extra npc dps helping your enemy.

I am gallente militia, and we do have been helped A LOT by farming matar alts, most of them from neutrals/pies...so this that people are sugesting will hurt the gal mili...but it just makes sense. Also with the income that FW is providing, maybe this change will start bringing actual pilots to FW instead of their free slots
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#12 - 2012-08-01 19:29:47 UTC
Learn 2 Plex.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#13 - 2012-08-01 20:04:05 UTC
DO NOT TRY TO IMPROVE FW

EVERY TIME CCP TRY TO IMPROVE IT , IT GOES JUST WORSE.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#14 - 2012-08-01 20:19:28 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
DO NOT TRY TO IMPROVE FW

EVERY TIME CCP TRY TO IMPROVE IT , IT GOES JUST WORSE.


FW has gotten better and better over time. FW is now the best it's ever been with the most people I've ever seen participating.

I know you don't like it that the players in the US TZ are able to plex in systems that matter, or that the Gallente are able to lock targets in plexes.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-08-01 20:42:23 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Ahahaha just kidding FW-plexing is completely broken and we’re going to fix that starting in Inferno 1.x

That is the devblog I want to see.

I think most players will agree with me that the change to FW brought many good things. There is PvP to be found almost everywhere and claiming sovereignty actually means something now. The latest example of that is the battle of Kourmonen, a system that holds great strategic value for both teams, where Amarr came out victorious. There are alot of players that care about FW today.

Also, the WTC tier system is interesting and creates incentive for the militias to work for a common goal. And there is ISK (i.e. LP) to be made from it so that FW players can fund their expensive PvP habits. The current mechanics even allow for a much weaker team to fight back by stacking vulnerable systems and then flipping them all at once, overwhelming even a much stronger opponent.

All in all I think the new FW mechanics are a great success. With one notable exception. Plexing!

The most efficient way to plex is solo in small fast ships WITHOUT EVEN FITTING GUNS. This has resulted in a huge flood of farmers and alts to the militias that plex only to make LP/ISK. They are not interested in winning the war or even defend strategically important resources. The only ships they are willing to risk are rifters, merlins and tormentors with empty highslots.

At the same time the armed forces of the Militias are putting Billions of ISK at risk to fight enemy players and to try to win the war. But the irony is that the deciding force in the sovereignty war are the gunless farmers. And for that they are rewarded with huge piles of LP from the NPC militias. It is almost as they want everybody to lay down their weapons and fly gunless ships.

This is a petition to CCP to look at plexing mechanics with the objective to make them reward players flying in PvP capable ships.

Do it!


The solution is to fix 0.0. The ONLY reason we are seeing all these farmers is that the isk/hour in FW is too high. It's pretty sad when 0.0 players are putting alts into militia's to farm isk for their 0.0 mains. They should be able to make more isk in 0.0, but they cannot. Fix that problem and all the 0.0 alt farmers go away to farm their more profitable 0.0 sov space instead. Then you are left with the highsec farmering alts. I say let them stay. Maybe some will get involved with pvp FW.

.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#16 - 2012-08-01 21:21:12 UTC
Bezerk'ah Vulkan wrote:
The problem isn't farmers being in pve ships, or without guns, or warping away...a farmer is a farmer, and i can easily detect some of them right here in this thread.

If they don't want to fight they won't fight...




Yeah but we can make it so that plexing is not profitable for those unwilling to pvp.

Its too defeatist just to say if someone doesn't want to fight, they won't. CCP can make plexing such that it only appeals to people who actually want to pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#17 - 2012-08-01 21:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Ironically the best fights for plexes was when they spawned once a day at DT, gave no payout, counted for nothing and were of no real consequence to the game at large.

Simply because you went there for the PVP, this was true of FW in general.

Now, plexes payout massively, are the sole mechanic for a system that is of great consequence for the game at large, even including large (ex)null sec alliances, simply for farming. Where before they were simply a means to an end (PVP) they have become the main focus themselves, which I don't think was the original intention and they haven't been changed at all to reflect their new role.




Inferno was a case of 'be careful what you wish for', we wished for consequences, we got an awful system full of farming alts. Now its here it'd be silly not to take advantage of it, but that I wouldn't say I would have chosen it with hindsight.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#18 - 2012-08-01 22:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
why not just reduce the amount of LP for running a plex?

Say 1,000 - 2,500 - 5,000 for the different sizes.

And give this amount for both offensive and defensive...


This still allows a certain amount of 'pve farming' but it not nearly as attractive for alt's

This then puts pvp as the better lp rewards for blowing up the enemy militia. Keep the warzone controls/rewards as is so plexing is important to gain WZC so you can cash out the lp gained from your pvp'ing......


Part of me really wants to see FW become what it's potential is...............until that time I'll stick to being a pirate.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Rengerel en Distel
#19 - 2012-08-01 22:48:44 UTC
Those that want to pvp will do so, those that want to farm will try and get away when they can. If they can't, they'll die, reload, and try to farm again. You can't make those people pvp by changing the pve mechanics of the plex itself. You especially can't make them pvp by coming in a small gang to tackle them in a plex, and expect them to fight 1v3 just because you want them to.

Pvp kills really should be the Tier slider, while plexing just does system upgrades and sov. It won't solve the farmers, but it does mean that the pvp is what really wins the war.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#20 - 2012-08-01 23:22:15 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
why not just reduce the amount of LP for running a plex?

Say 1,000 - 2,500 - 5,000 for the different sizes.

And give this amount for both offensive and defensive...


This still allows a certain amount of 'pve farming' but it not nearly as attractive for alt's

This then puts pvp as the better lp rewards for blowing up the enemy militia. Keep the warzone controls/rewards as is so plexing is important to gain WZC so you can cash out the lp gained from your pvp'ing......


Part of me really wants to see FW become what it's potential is...............until that time I'll stick to being a pirate.



They don't need to reduce the payouts they need to make it a pvp mechanic. If you had on average 2 or so enemy encounters per plex captured the current payouts would be fine.

They need to stop the ninja plexing. Plexes should be fought over not farmed.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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