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European Gun Laws: Welcome to America!

Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2012-08-01 04:39:08 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Evil Incarn8 wrote:
ammunition? i want to see a 3d printer create explosives out of thin air


Easier to get than the gun

*Also you can make your own black powder, no where near as powerful but can still blow a hole clean through someone


Most likely the gun ownerLol
Something Random
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-08-01 06:17:03 UTC
The lower receiver is the ID stamped part and needs to be purchased with your gun license and registered.
All the other parts of the Ar-15 are freely available and unregulated apparently. This guy hasnt modelled any other part of the gun, he went and got the freely available parts then modelled the lower receiver that you should not be able to get and built the gun, he even modded it to start with smaller guages and less powerful munitions first - just in case.

Interesting stuff.

But anyone with Secondary School (High School) education and workshops can do that anyway as a guy i knew in our school did, went and made himself a "theoretically" workable Mach-10, just had to conform to UK decomissioned/replica gun law and it was all good apparently.

So good it worked i heard. No idea how they found that out of course, nor the recomissioned luger and browning.

"caught on fire a little bit, just a little."

"Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangs all here!"

I love Science, it gives me a Hadron.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#23 - 2012-08-01 13:50:44 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
For those of you who prefer Europe's tight gun laws, you may want to do some proactive legislation. However, banning 3D printers outright will probably put Europe at a competitive disadvantage.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/133514-the-worlds-first-3d-printed-gun
Quote:

In short, this means that people without gun licenses — or people who have had their licenses revoked — could print their own lower receiver and build a complete, off-the-books gun.


slashdot commentary:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/07/31/1614228/additive-manufacturing-3d-printing-gun-control-and-patent-law



Why bother? Without a license for it, that weapon is ilegal and thus owning it and being caught means trouble.



Yeah bad guys don't like playing by the rules. I guess that's why they're called criminals.


Getting ilegal weapons is not a real trouble for a criminal (black market is black market everywhere).

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#24 - 2012-08-01 14:12:08 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
For those of you who prefer Europe's tight gun laws, you may want to do some proactive legislation. However, banning 3D printers outright will probably put Europe at a competitive disadvantage.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/133514-the-worlds-first-3d-printed-gun
Quote:

In short, this means that people without gun licenses — or people who have had their licenses revoked — could print their own lower receiver and build a complete, off-the-books gun.


slashdot commentary:
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/12/07/31/1614228/additive-manufacturing-3d-printing-gun-control-and-patent-law



Why bother? Without a license for it, that weapon is ilegal and thus owning it and being caught means trouble.



Yeah bad guys don't like playing by the rules. I guess that's why they're called criminals.


Getting ilegal weapons is not a real trouble for a criminal (black market is black market everywhere).



Yes I know that. In fact I tried telling you that in the last thread, hence why I think draconian gun restrictions is idiotic because all you are doing is putting the good guys at a disadvantage.

I had my hands on a couple of hot items once which included a survival rifle that could be broken in half and stored in a backpack in a matter of seconds, came with a bipod and scope, a desert eagle, and a very powerful homemade crossbow that used a hunting rifle stock and receiver to control it.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Tian Jade
Bad Bumblebee Incorporated
#25 - 2012-08-01 15:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Jade
Micheal Dietrich wrote:



Yes I know that. In fact I tried telling you that in the last thread, hence why I think draconian gun restrictions is idiotic because all you are doing is putting the good guys at a disadvantage.

I had my hands on a couple of hot items once which included a survival rifle that could be broken in half and stored in a backpack in a matter of seconds, came with a bipod and scope, a desert eagle, and a very powerful homemade crossbow that used a hunting rifle stock and receiver to control it.


Yet western europe has much less gun crime victims.

Personally I am also more afraid of some of the citizens who want a gun to protect themselves.

One example: If I would see a suspicious person walking around my house I would probably call the police to deal with it. A person armed with a gun might be far more eager to use it while telling himself that he does it to protect himself. Or to say it in a metapher: If you have a hammer, a lot of problems start to look like nails.

In the US there are people I personally would not trust with a spoon and a fork, wielding automatic firearms.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#26 - 2012-08-01 15:51:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Micheal Dietrich
Tian Jade wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:



Yes I know that. In fact I tried telling you that in the last thread, hence why I think draconian gun restrictions is idiotic because all you are doing is putting the good guys at a disadvantage.

I had my hands on a couple of hot items once which included a survival rifle that could be broken in half and stored in a backpack in a matter of seconds, came with a bipod and scope, a desert eagle, and a very powerful homemade crossbow that used a hunting rifle stock and receiver to control it.


Yet western europe has much less gun crime victims.

Personally I am also more afraid of some of the citizens who want a gun to protect themselves.

One example: If I would see a suspicious person walking around my house I would probably call the police to deal with it. A person armed with a gun might be far more eager to use it while telling himself that he does it to protect himself. Or to say it in a metapher: If you have a hammer, a lot of problems start to look like nails.

In the US there are people I personally would not trust with a spoon and a fork, wielding automatic firearms.



My question is why are you watching suspicious people walk around your home? Are you that paranoid that you spend your days staring out the blinds?

Other than that I do enjoy the usual ignorant views that one has of gun owners. All thinking that we really do run outside firing off our shotgun while yelling 'Get off my lawn!". Well as a person with a gun, I never felt the need to use suspicious persons passing by my house as target practice. But then I didn't spend my days peeking out the blinds. In fact my firearms are safely locked away in a 1200 lb safe, not spread strategically around the house like a militia compound.

You are also welcome to come back and tell me how great gun laws are when the crime rate with them is zero. Until then, I will consider them broken and futile.

Edit: I forgot to mention how people like you always like to point out the one crimes low rate but you either fail to see the increase in other crime rates or you purposely try to hide them. Always remember that man was committing atrocities against man long before guns were created and he continues to do so today.

Quote:
Long before the dawn of man, strife was already a major component of life. Wherever a creature shared a piece of land with another, it was just a matter of time until a struggle for resources would ensue. Man was no different, showcasing a perverse fascination with violence. Man and civilization brought forth more innovative ways of taking human life than any other function needed for survival. There are more ways of killing a man than there are ways of making bread or making love.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Alara IonStorm
#27 - 2012-08-01 17:18:38 UTC
So replicators just suddenly exist now... I should pay more attention.

I wounder if I could make ponies figurines out of them. I mean guns, manly guns.
Tian Jade
Bad Bumblebee Incorporated
#28 - 2012-08-01 17:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Jade
Stupid forums ate my post..



The rate of homicides is 5x higher in the US then in Germany and in many european countries police forces do not even carry firearms while on regular duty. There are reasons for this but I will give you another example you gun maniacs always fail to account.

Two people get into an argument while being drunk, the situation gets out of hand and A hits B into the face. Now B is also drunk, really mad at A .. and armed with a gun.

I know you will now argue that B would never be so stupid as to start a fight with A since A is armed but people are rarely that reasonable, especially not while being drunk.

Without a gun the worst that might happen might be a broken nose and a few bruises but with a gun in the hands of one of the parties involved, situation might escalate into something worse.
Jim Era
#29 - 2012-08-01 17:58:00 UTC
Tian Jade wrote:
Stupid forums ate my post..



The rate of homicides is 5x higher in the US then in Germany and in many european countries police forces do not even carry firearms while on regular duty. There are reasons for this but I will give you another example you gun maniacs always fail to account.

Two people get into an argument while being drunk, the situation gets out of hand and A hits B into the face. Now B is also drunk, really mad at A .. and armed with a gun.

I know you will now argue that B would never be so stupid as to start a fight with A since A is armed but people are rarely that reasonable, especially not while being drunk.

Without a gun the worst that might happen might be a broken nose and a few bruises but with a gun in the hands of one of the parties involved, situation might escalate into something worse.


And what if guy B has a knife and guy A is defenseless, gets stabbed 8 times in the chest and twice in the face, because he left his protection at home

Wat™

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#30 - 2012-08-01 18:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Micheal Dietrich
Jim Era wrote:
Tian Jade wrote:
Stupid forums ate my post..



The rate of homicides is 5x higher in the US then in Germany and in many european countries police forces do not even carry firearms while on regular duty. There are reasons for this but I will give you another example you gun maniacs always fail to account.

Two people get into an argument while being drunk, the situation gets out of hand and A hits B into the face. Now B is also drunk, really mad at A .. and armed with a gun.

I know you will now argue that B would never be so stupid as to start a fight with A since A is armed but people are rarely that reasonable, especially not while being drunk.

Without a gun the worst that might happen might be a broken nose and a few bruises but with a gun in the hands of one of the parties involved, situation might escalate into something worse.


And what if guy B has a knife and guy A is defenseless, gets stabbed 8 times in the chest and twice in the face, because he left his protection at home



Pool stick, ashtray, beer bottle, shoe, fist. I'm not going to argue that B wouldn't start at fight with A at all, I'm just going to point out the fallacy of only implementing one weapon into the scenario right after I posted a quote saying that man has created more ways to kill man than there is making bread.

And a broken nose eh. Do you know how many cases of manslaughter are reported each year? Except in Iceland, apparently they don't hit each other in Iceland.

Would you like to try again?

Yes No

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#31 - 2012-08-01 20:53:31 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Why bother? Without a license for it, that weapon is ilegal and thus owning it and being caught means trouble.



Yeah bad guys don't like playing by the rules. I guess that's why they're called criminals.


Getting ilegal weapons is not a real trouble for a criminal (black market is black market everywhere).



Yes I know that. In fact I tried telling you that in the last thread, hence why I think draconian gun restrictions is idiotic because all you are doing is putting the good guys at a disadvantage.

(...)


As i pointed in that thread, Spain is not suffering any harm from that, and is way safer from crime than the USA.

Yoru chances to be shot dead are 4x my chances to be murdered by any mean. Your chances to be murdered by any mean are 7x my chances to be murdered by any mean. Where is your safety, dude?

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#32 - 2012-08-01 21:05:17 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:


Yes I know that. In fact I tried telling you that in the last thread, hence why I think draconian gun restrictions is idiotic because all you are doing is putting the good guys at a disadvantage.

(...)


As i pointed in that thread, Spain is not suffering any harm from that, and is way safer from crime than the USA.


2008 per 100,000 is .67 in spain. www.gunpolicy.org. But we already knew how good you are at putting your foot in your mouth. Like I told the other person, until your gun crime reaches zero don't think about preaching to me from the soapbox. When your gun crime reaches zero, I will gladly turn in my own firearm. No harm my ass. Hey, I still haven't seen any of those citations I've been asking for. What's the matter, can't find them?

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Yoru chances to be shot dead are 4x my chances to be murdered by any mean. Your chances to be murdered by any mean are 7x my chances to be murdered by any mean. Where is your safety, dude?



Why on my hip of course. Where's yours?

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-08-01 21:46:24 UTC
Tian Jade wrote:
Stupid forums ate my post..



The rate of homicides is 5x higher in the US then in Germany and in many european countries police forces do not even carry firearms while on regular duty. There are reasons for this but I will give you another example you gun maniacs always fail to account.

Two people get into an argument while being drunk, the situation gets out of hand and A hits B into the face. Now B is also drunk, really mad at A .. and armed with a gun.

I know you will now argue that B would never be so stupid as to start a fight with A since A is armed but people are rarely that reasonable, especially not while being drunk.

Without a gun the worst that might happen might be a broken nose and a few bruises but with a gun in the hands of one of the parties involved, situation might escalate into something worse.


I assume you're not taking into account the population differences of Germany and the United States?

Germany: Approx 82,000,000

USA: Approx 307,000,000

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Tian Jade
Bad Bumblebee Incorporated
#34 - 2012-08-01 21:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Jade
Micheal Dietrich wrote:



Pool stick, ashtray, beer bottle, shoe, fist. I'm not going to argue that B wouldn't start at fight with A at all, I'm just going to point out the fallacy of only implementing one weapon into the scenario right after I posted a quote saying that man has created more ways to kill man than there is making bread.

And a broken nose eh. Do you know how many cases of manslaughter are reported each year? Except in Iceland, apparently they don't hit each other in Iceland.

Would you like to try again?

Yes No



You still fail to see it. Roll

A knife can be a lethal weapon but to use it in such a way you need some strength or at least considerable skill, something one can hardly muster while being drunk or so enraged that all self control vanishes. For example the human chest is protected by ribs and muscle tissue, a lethal attack in that area is everything but easy. The neck and skull are areas we humans defend on an instinctual level, a single strike with a knife is not likely to kill someone.

The same goes for an ashtray. An ashtray can smash a human skull but it needs to hit the right area or have considerable force to achieve this. That is the important difference in lethality. Without a gun it would end as a hardly newsworthy bar fight, with guns however things have a chance to get out of control.

A trained person can make almost everything into a lethal weapons, but they are rarely the danger. The real danger are the halfwits with barely any training but holding weapons with a lot of potential to inflict lethal wounds.

By the way a trained professional you would hardly need a gun for you protection, the special need is something for the half trained ones, the ones being a danger for their fellow citizens.
Tian Jade
Bad Bumblebee Incorporated
#35 - 2012-08-01 22:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Jade
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Tian Jade wrote:
Stupid forums ate my post..



The rate of homicides is 5x higher in the US then in Germany and in many european countries police forces do not even carry firearms while on regular duty. There are reasons for this but I will give you another example you gun maniacs always fail to account.

Two people get into an argument while being drunk, the situation gets out of hand and A hits B into the face. Now B is also drunk, really mad at A .. and armed with a gun.

I know you will now argue that B would never be so stupid as to start a fight with A since A is armed but people are rarely that reasonable, especially not while being drunk.

Without a gun the worst that might happen might be a broken nose and a few bruises but with a gun in the hands of one of the parties involved, situation might escalate into something worse.


I assume you're not taking into account the population differences of Germany and the United States?

Germany: Approx 82,000,000

USA: Approx 307,000,000


Yes the statistics take the numbers into account because they are compared per 100000 persons.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate

Edit:

Oh and if you dig deeper you may find numbers about the actual murder with firearms cases, which is in Germany a number in the low three digits, while the well armed US are almost in the 5 digits zone. Even by taking the total number of citizens into account this looks really bad.
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#36 - 2012-08-01 22:24:56 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
... a survival rifle that could be broken in half and stored in a backpack in a matter of seconds...


Sub2k owner spotted.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-08-01 22:26:56 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
... a survival rifle that could be broken in half and stored in a backpack in a matter of seconds...


Sub2k owner spotted.


The AR15 does that too P

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#38 - 2012-08-01 22:44:42 UTC
Tian Jade wrote:

... might be far more eager to use ...


That really depends on many other variables:

1. Local criminal law
2. Local civil law
3. Ghetto level of the hood
4. Teenagers/college kids near by
5. How fast is your local police
6. Can you afford dealing with the aftermath (time in court / loss income / mental issues of taking a life / etc)
7. People with you in the house, kids, wife near by.
8. How good/bad of a shot you actually are under stress.
9. etc

To me the main thing is that, because people here might be armed, it is more likely that the criminal will rob the house when I'm not in it... or not rob at all.




"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"

Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#39 - 2012-08-01 22:57:14 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:


Pool stick, ashtray, beer bottle, shoe, fist. I'm not going to argue that B wouldn't start at fight with A at all, I'm just going to point out the fallacy of only implementing one weapon into the scenario right after I posted a quote saying that man has created more ways to kill man than there is making bread.

And a broken nose eh. Do you know how many cases of manslaughter are reported each year? Except in Iceland, apparently they don't hit each other in Iceland.

Would you like to try again?

Yes No


And don't forget that in most states your License to Carry does not allows you to either carry drunk, or carry in places of nuisance. The drunken gun owner at the pub will get in trouble, fight or no fight.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#40 - 2012-08-01 23:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Micheal Dietrich
Tian Jade wrote:

You still fail to see it. Roll

A knife can be a lethal weapon but to use it in such a way you need some strength or at least considerable skill, something one can hardly muster while being drunk or so enraged that all self control vanishes.


You contradicted yourself in that sentence. One needs strength to cut but he wouldn't have that obviously because his self control vanished. His self control vanished. And a person certainly wouldn't swing harder when they're enraged, golly gee no. Don't know about you but I sure as well was a mean drunk. Alcohol is quite good at removing inhibitions.

Not that the above even matters because its bull. 7 years of throwing freight has left me with a lot of nick scars. Sliced my thumb open to the bone once; it didn't take strength at all, just a brand new blade. Like butter man.

Tian Jade wrote:
For example the human chest is protected by ribs and muscle tissue, a lethal attack in that area is everything but easy. The neck and skull are areas we humans defend on an instinctual level, a single strike with a knife is not likely to kill someone.


Jugular artery in the neck
Femoral artery in the inner thigh
Basilic and Axillary artery in the arm and armpit
Iliac just above the groin
Brachiocephalic at the collar
Liver on the right
Kidneys in the back
Esophagus
4" on a under arm swing to reach the heart and lungs

You don't need skill, just a lucky hit. 6" scar on my chest is a testament of that. It's my reminder every day that I look in the mirror. Yeah I don't see it Lol. I'm not the one trying to cheapen one way to die just to make another way seem worse. I know how fragile the human body really is, do you?

Tian Jade wrote:
A trained person can make almost everything into a lethal weapons, but they are rarely the danger. The real danger are the halfwits with barely any training but holding weapons with a lot of potential to inflict lethal wounds.



The irony in you saying that. I've taken my gun safety glasses and my hunters safety. I preach safety to anyone I take out to the range. I'm for background checks when purchasing a firearm. By your own admission, I am not the danger and yet you don't like me having a firearm. The same applies to all those people that you said you were afraid of who are looking for the shady characters on their lawn. I'll tell you what, if it bothers you so much you are more than welcome to come on over and remove them from my residence.

Shameless Avenger wrote:

Sub2k owner spotted.


Sadly I haven't had for like a decade and it's too bad, that was an awesome rifle. I don't remember what it was other than the fact that it said Handy Gun on the barrel. I only remember that because we used to joke about it being so handy with storing it away in a backpack and being able to assemble it in a matter of seconds. It was basically a survivalist rifle.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

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