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"Excluding the Hulk " What is everyone opinion of the new barge changes.
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Dave Stark
#21 - 2012-07-30 07:53:45 UTC
Sten Biller wrote:
Please CCP, lower the Strip Miner yield bonus for Procurer & Skiff !


yeah let's make the procurer and skiff even worse even though they're already the lowest mining yield ships!
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#22 - 2012-07-30 09:08:03 UTC
Sten Biller wrote:
Please CCP, lower the Strip Miner yield bonus for Procurer & Skiff !


They are still MINING barges, you know?

Personally, I like the changes so far... It's good to see that mining as a profession gets alittle more love. I mean, let's face it, but becoming an efficient miner takes almost as long as becoming a lvl 4 mission runner. But, the barges/exhumers, as the only feasable ships for the profession, just didn't reflect the time and affort invested.

Besides, solo miners like me, almost HAD to have a second account, to even dream of reaching the level of efficiency a corp miner could reach... given, maybe that was working as intended, but it simply wasn't "fair" in comparison to what mission runners could do.

So much for my basic opinion... now alittle more specific:

Procurer/Skiff: Great changes all around. Great survivability (EHP, drones), sufficient ore hold and speed, low mining yield (as intended) - My new ships of the line, as a solo miner/lvl 4 mining mission runner.

Retreiver/Mackinaw: Great ore hold, decent suvivability and mining yield, BUT too low powergrid to really use the med slots. - My second choice, will use them for high to med sec mining.

Covetor/Hulk: Great mining yield, alittle weak in all other aspects (but working as intended if used in mining fleets) - No longer intresting for a solo miner like me.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2012-07-30 14:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
I'm ok with most of the changes though I hate the new non-special role type stance.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Sten Biller
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-07-30 16:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sten Biller
Shalua Rui wrote:
Sten Biller wrote:
Please CCP, lower the Strip Miner yield bonus for Procurer & Skiff !
They are still MINING barges, you know?
Personally, I like the changes so far... It's good to see that mining as a profession gets alittle more love. I mean, let's face it, but becoming an efficient miner takes almost as long as becoming a lvl 4 mission runner. But, the barges/exhumers, as the only feasable ships for the profession, just didn't reflect the time and affort invested..
Even as a miner, I don't think mining should ever be as profitable as mission running; we don't face much direct attack, (aside from T2 crystals), we don't have to spend ISK for ammo, & can perma-bookmark where ever we go. Really to make that kind of money, one needs to invest into making stuff with ore... Let's face it, mining is what you can do while checking emails & watching TV at the same time.

Quote:
Procurer/Skiff: Great changes all around. Great survivability (EHP, drones), sufficient ore hold and speed, low mining yield (as intended) - My new ships of the line, as a solo miner/lvl 4 mining mission runner.

Retreiver/Mackinaw: Great ore hold, decent suvivability and mining yield, BUT too low powergrid to really use the med slots. - My second choice, will use them for high to med sec mining.

Covetor/Hulk: Great mining yield, alittle weak in all other aspects (but working as intended if used in mining fleets) - No longer interesting for a solo miner like me.
You proved exactly why the Procurer/Skiff should not get all the extra forthcoming bonuses; considering training time + hull & fitting costs, the overall "inherit desirability" should go 3rd, 2nd, 1st, not 1st, 2nd, 3rd like you have listed.

Hulk is being kept as a base line, which is fine. The lower-tiered hulls are getting new bonuses, which is great & needed IMHO. However, I think it is imbalanced to give the lowest tier a boost to make it overshadow the other more expensive (in money & time resources) ships!
edit: For reference for mining amount numbers, please see this post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1716186#post1716186
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#25 - 2012-07-30 19:36:28 UTC
Sten Biller wrote:
Hulk is being kept as a base line, which is fine. The lower-tiered hulls are getting new bonuses, which is great & needed IMHO. However, I think it is imbalanced to give the lowest tier a boost to make it overshadow the other more expensive (in money & time resources) ships!
edit: For reference for mining amount numbers, please see this post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1716186#post1716186


Yea, but that's the thing. CCPs goal is to get rid of the tiers within a tier structure alltogether... not a bad thing, in my optinion. You can skill your mining barges/exhumers, but all it does is rais your bonuses, your are able to fly them right away.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-07-30 20:22:19 UTC
Sten Biller wrote:
Shalua Rui wrote:
Sten Biller wrote:
Please CCP, lower the Strip Miner yield bonus for Procurer & Skiff !
They are still MINING barges, you know?
Personally, I like the changes so far... It's good to see that mining as a profession gets alittle more love. I mean, let's face it, but becoming an efficient miner takes almost as long as becoming a lvl 4 mission runner. But, the barges/exhumers, as the only feasable ships for the profession, just didn't reflect the time and affort invested.
Even as a miner, I don't think mining should ever be as profitable as mission running;



Strip mining bonuses to procurer and retriever doesn't make mining more profitabel. Procurer/skiff and retriever/mackinaw strip miner bonus is just there to bring the ore harvest in line with the 3 HighSlot barges (hulk + covetor).

1HS barge +200% yield bonus = 3 HS yield
2HS barge + 150% bonus = 3 HS yield
3 HS barge + 0% bonus = 3 HS yield

Reducing these bonusses will probaply make the hulk again the one and only choice.

I have concerns about the new the hulk & coveter fleet role. What does them make fleet ships ? Which abiltity besides 15% higher yield and small cargo bay does make them a fleet ship ? Aren't mining fleets just there for conversation or for players who dont want/can dual box with logistic pilots ?
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#27 - 2012-07-30 23:01:36 UTC
Kyshonuba wrote:
Sten Biller wrote:
Shalua Rui wrote:
Sten Biller wrote:
Please CCP, lower the Strip Miner yield bonus for Procurer & Skiff !
They are still MINING barges, you know?
Personally, I like the changes so far... It's good to see that mining as a profession gets alittle more love. I mean, let's face it, but becoming an efficient miner takes almost as long as becoming a lvl 4 mission runner. But, the barges/exhumers, as the only feasable ships for the profession, just didn't reflect the time and affort invested.
Even as a miner, I don't think mining should ever be as profitable as mission running;



Strip mining bonuses to procurer and retriever doesn't make mining more profitabel. Procurer/skiff and retriever/mackinaw strip miner bonus is just there to bring the ore harvest in line with the 3 HighSlot barges (hulk + covetor).

1HS barge +200% yield bonus = 3 HS yield
2HS barge + 150% bonus = 3 HS yield
3 HS barge + 0% bonus = 3 HS yield

Reducing these bonusses will probaply make the hulk again the one and only choice.

I have concerns about the new the hulk & coveter fleet role. What does them make fleet ships ? Which abiltity besides 15% higher yield and small cargo bay does make them a fleet ship ? Aren't mining fleets just there for conversation or for players who dont want/can dual box with logistic pilots ?





Mining fleets are 99% main/alts... and then 1% people chatting and trying to use a PvP ship fleet system that is a pain in the ass and doesn't do much beyond stack a cap/yield bonus and give you ships that try to haul and boost at the same time - doing neither very well... basically for fleet ships there isn't much point to try with the current inventory.

FC = no one uses this
WC = hardly anyone uses this
SC = Orca boosting your mining fleet... but should be the WC and sit and boost non-stop... but doesn't because it's a hauler also... derp.
Grunts [Squad] = hulks (or Macks) in a blob mining and canning or dumping into the orca while the SC tries to tell people which div to put the ore becuase the ships needs div - derp.
then you get someone with no skill to haul ore (hopefully) and they then put it at the wrong station or try to refine it w/o asking ...etc... while the SC curses them out for being stupid and not listening/understanding refining skills. Then the guy gets pissed and keeps the ore pissing off everyone...

Then ganking is tossed in for excitement and PONIES!!!! everything is PONIES!!!!

Did I miss anything?
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#28 - 2012-07-30 23:05:55 UTC
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
Did I miss anything?


Nope, that sums it up pretty nicely.^^

Personally, I am excited for my "new" Mack and Skiff...

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Sten Biller
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-07-31 09:30:17 UTC
Kyshonuba wrote:
...Procurer/skiff and retriever/mackinaw strip miner bonus is just there to bring the ore harvest in line with the 3 HighSlot barges (hulk + covetor).

1HS barge +200% yield bonus = 3 HS yield
2HS barge + 150% bonus = 3 HS yield
3 HS barge + 0% bonus = 3 HS yield

Reducing these bonuses will probably make the hulk again the one and only choice.

I have concerns about the new the hulk & coveter fleet role. What does them make fleet ships ? Which abiltity besides 15% higher yield and small cargo bay does make them a fleet ship ?
You are proving why Hulk is pointless (again), & why I'm asking the lower-tiered ships not get such HUGE set of bonuses. As it stands, zerging a miner's training & savings for a Hulk seems decent. But with the current new changes, I would guess training to a Retrever then stopping at Mining Barge III to train up ore processing would be better it would seem.

The other bonuses are OK currently in testing, but to make a Hulk/Covetor retain to be a reasonable investment, the mining bonuses IMHO it should look something like this:

1HS barge + 50% yield bonus = 1.50 HS yield
2HS barge + 25% bonus = 2.25 HS yield
3 HS barge + 0% bonus = 3 HS yield

So, this makes the getting a Hulk for solo speed-farming the top ores (ISK/m3) in a system a decent investment for some, & perhaps getting a fleet for a Hulk more worth the effort. A Procurer/skiff will still be a great tanky stripper even at 1.50 HS yield, and a retriever/mackinaw would still be great at "park and mine" at a 2.25 HS yield.
Dave Stark
#30 - 2012-07-31 10:22:11 UTC
Sten Biller wrote:
You are proving why Hulk is pointless (again), & why I'm asking the lower-tiered ships not get such HUGE set of bonuses. As it stands, zerging a miner's training & savings for a Hulk seems decent. But with the current new changes, I would guess training to a Retrever then stopping at Mining Barge III to train up ore processing would be better it would seem.

The other bonuses are OK currently in testing, but to make a Hulk/Covetor retain to be a reasonable investment, the mining bonuses IMHO it should look something like this:

1HS barge + 50% yield bonus = 1.50 HS yield
2HS barge + 25% bonus = 2.25 HS yield
3 HS barge + 0% bonus = 3 HS yield

So, this makes the getting a Hulk for solo speed-farming the top ores (ISK/m3) in a system a decent investment for some, & perhaps getting a fleet for a Hulk more worth the effort. A Procurer/skiff will still be a great tanky stripper even at 1.50 HS yield, and a retriever/mackinaw would still be great at "park and mine" at a 2.25 HS yield.


the hulk gets a higher yield bonus/exhumer level. it's not pointless at all, it will out mine any other ship [logistics excluded]

also retriever is mining barge I. however you won't have the 28k ore hold at that level.

what you suggest would just keep the hulk as king of mining and not change a single thing with the rebalance, the other two ships would be useless.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#31 - 2012-07-31 13:17:21 UTC
The only thing I think is wrong with the Procurer/Retriever hulls is the bonus should be a skill bonus rather than a role bonus.

What's wrong with the Procurer having a +40%/level bonus to strip miner yield?

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Dave Stark
#32 - 2012-07-31 13:30:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The only thing I think is wrong with the Procurer/Retriever hulls is the bonus should be a skill bonus rather than a role bonus.

What's wrong with the Procurer having a +40%/level bonus to strip miner yield?


because it'd mine significantly less than any other exhumer, and you'd have to get it to exhumer V for it to still be ****.
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-07-31 13:58:56 UTC
Honestly. I don't know how some people can't see the massive benefit throughout for all of this.

Following CCP's dev blog in June the ships are all falling into the catagorys they were assigned and as it stands everythings working as intended.

the hulk still is the superior yield ship, and the mack and skiff have been given roles at which they excell whether you want to solo mine/haul or risk yourself in the more dangerous elements of space.
Dave Stark
#34 - 2012-07-31 15:42:59 UTC
Annette Aumer wrote:
the hulk still is the superior yield ship

not if it's spending half the time fannying around with crystals.
Sten Biller
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-08-01 05:01:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Sten Biller
Dave stark wrote:
What you suggest would just keep the hulk as king of mining and not change a single thing with the rebalance, the other two ships would be useless.
I did not say that the new bonuses to mid & low slots, extra cap, extra ore cargo, extra drones, etc should be done away with at all! I'm just saying that 1 strip miner should not be directly equal to 3 strip miners, that is all. You did not read my numbers.

Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The only thing I think is wrong with the Procurer/Retriever hulls is the bonus should be a skill bonus rather than a role bonus.
What's wrong with the Procurer having a +40%/level bonus to strip miner yield?
I think your idea is reaonable; maybe the numbers have to be tweaked, but yes those who skill up should be rewarded!
Dave Stark
#36 - 2012-08-01 06:31:34 UTC
Sten Biller wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
What you suggest would just keep the hulk as king of mining and not change a single thing with the rebalance, the other two ships would be useless.
I did not say that the new bonuses to mid & low slots, extra cap, extra ore cargo, extra drones, etc should be done away with at all! I'm just saying that 1 strip miner should not be directly equal to 3 strip miners, that is all. You did not read my numbers.

Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The only thing I think is wrong with the Procurer/Retriever hulls is the bonus should be a skill bonus rather than a role bonus.
What's wrong with the Procurer having a +40%/level bonus to strip miner yield?
I think your idea is reaonable; maybe the numbers have to be tweaked, but yes those who skill up should be rewarded!



i did read your numbers, and even at exhumer V it'd still have the lowest yield, and until exhumer V it'd be an absolute joke in terms of yield. the idea is terrible and the numbers are worse than the idea. sorry but that's the truth of it. the skiff is already the most pointless of the 3 mining barges without neutering it further.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2012-08-01 13:29:32 UTC
the procurer and Skiff should be reasonably newb friendly as they have the stronger tanks to allow them to last longer if stuff hists the fan. And the lager tank will also helps as they may not have their secondary skill up that increast the amount of HP their tank may have

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#38 - 2012-08-01 15:22:35 UTC
You keep saying the word Teir Ben, you need to change your way of thinking away from teirs and in to the realm of roles.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#39 - 2012-08-01 20:05:04 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Sten Biller wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
What you suggest would just keep the hulk as king of mining and not change a single thing with the rebalance, the other two ships would be useless.
I did not say that the new bonuses to mid & low slots, extra cap, extra ore cargo, extra drones, etc should be done away with at all! I'm just saying that 1 strip miner should not be directly equal to 3 strip miners, that is all. You did not read my numbers.

Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The only thing I think is wrong with the Procurer/Retriever hulls is the bonus should be a skill bonus rather than a role bonus.
What's wrong with the Procurer having a +40%/level bonus to strip miner yield?
I think your idea is reaonable; maybe the numbers have to be tweaked, but yes those who skill up should be rewarded!



i did read your numbers, and even at exhumer V it'd still have the lowest yield, and until exhumer V it'd be an absolute joke in terms of yield. the idea is terrible and the numbers are worse than the idea. sorry but that's the truth of it. the skiff is already the most pointless of the 3 mining barges without neutering it further.


+40%/level of Mining barge puts it at +200% at Mining Barge 5, then it *could* have an exhumer skill bonus as well.

As to it having the lowest production? That's the tradeoff for it having the biggest tank.
This is what people in the business refer to as "game balance".

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Dave Stark
#40 - 2012-08-02 06:50:33 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Sten Biller wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
What you suggest would just keep the hulk as king of mining and not change a single thing with the rebalance, the other two ships would be useless.
I did not say that the new bonuses to mid & low slots, extra cap, extra ore cargo, extra drones, etc should be done away with at all! I'm just saying that 1 strip miner should not be directly equal to 3 strip miners, that is all. You did not read my numbers.

Buzzy Warstl wrote:
The only thing I think is wrong with the Procurer/Retriever hulls is the bonus should be a skill bonus rather than a role bonus.
What's wrong with the Procurer having a +40%/level bonus to strip miner yield?
I think your idea is reaonable; maybe the numbers have to be tweaked, but yes those who skill up should be rewarded!



i did read your numbers, and even at exhumer V it'd still have the lowest yield, and until exhumer V it'd be an absolute joke in terms of yield. the idea is terrible and the numbers are worse than the idea. sorry but that's the truth of it. the skiff is already the most pointless of the 3 mining barges without neutering it further.


+40%/level of Mining barge puts it at +200% at Mining Barge 5, then it *could* have an exhumer skill bonus as well.

As to it having the lowest production? That's the tradeoff for it having the biggest tank.
This is what people in the business refer to as "game balance".


sure it's balanced, doesn't mean it makes the skiff a worth while ship. it's still the worst exhumer out there.
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