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Shield ESC and Naglfars
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Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-08-01 04:53:44 UTC
We plan on moving into a Pulsar C5 and have a fully skilled siege OGB tengu.

I'm wondering what kind of tank you need for shield escalations on a Naglfar.

Yes I know the naglfar sucks and that most people run armor escalations blah blah blah, were rebals.


I've poked around at some other fits and it looks like 6000dps tank for 5 minutes is what alot of the fits have without boosts.

Naglfars don't have remotely that good of cap. I''m still a LONG time from being able to fly it so don't yall worry about this fit if it's nooby as ****. Also, the faction and deadspace gear I already own and I know its insane ect.. ect... bit me.

[Naglfar, Naglfar fit]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Tracking Enhancer II

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field

6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon, Republic Fleet EMP XL
6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon, Republic Fleet EMP XL
'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Cruise Missile
'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Cruise Missile
Siege Module II

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Without boosts or Implants, but max skills: I get 11376 Burst tank for 4m20s, and 2287 Sustained Tank
10307 DPS

With boosts my tank bumps up to 14230/2861

So heres my questions:
Is this going to be enough tank for quad-escalations in a C5? If not what kind of tank do I need.
Should I be using cruiser missiles or torpedoes?

♞
Nimrod vanHall
Van Mij Belastingvrij
#2 - 2012-08-01 05:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod vanHall
I thinking the real questions are:
1Wat is the explosief speed of my missiles
2 To what speed will the escalated BS's be slowed down?
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-08-01 07:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Quote:
'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I

I loled.

seriously, forget about the nag.
even if you do use it, youre better off with smartbombs in the 2 missile slots.

yeah, you say youre a rebel but quite honestly, if you want to run propper capital escalations, you cannot do it in a pulsar.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Myz Toyou
Nekkid Inc.
#4 - 2012-08-01 08:00:55 UTC
If you wanna do Pulsar cap escalation use a shield Moros, your missiles on the Nag will do as much damage to sleepers as an Ibis. Or get them webbed down to nearly 0 velosity
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#5 - 2012-08-01 08:18:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Well, nag isn't quite as useless as a phoenix. Those two capital autocannons make an impact. The ballistics controls should be replaced with cap power relays though.

Also, more cap modules. Capacitor is often more critical than raw tank, especially since you should be reducing the incoming dps at a heathy rate. That looks awfully overtanked.
Alec Freeman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-08-01 10:00:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alec Freeman
In a pulsar your tank should be fine.

Swap 1x BCU for 1x Tracking enhancer and swap your torpedo's for cruise missiles. Your setup is maxxed for paper DPS when in reality your missiles will do **** all damage. Cruise missiles have small-er explosion radius so they will deal more real damage to the BS's.

And you should be fine with the rigs for cap.

Edit: Btw fitting cap mods to dreads that arnt Revs (even then rarely) is baaaad, rigs will be fine.
Anuki Peime
LM Industry and more
#7 - 2012-08-01 10:27:02 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
We plan on moving into a Pulsar C5 and have a fully skilled siege OGB tengu.

I'm wondering what kind of tank you need for shield escalations on a Naglfar.

Yes I know the naglfar sucks and that most people run armor escalations blah blah blah, were rebals.


I've poked around at some other fits and it looks like 6000dps tank for 5 minutes is what alot of the fits have without boosts.

Naglfars don't have remotely that good of cap. I''m still a LONG time from being able to fly it so don't yall worry about this fit if it's nooby as ****. Also, the faction and deadspace gear I already own and I know its insane ect.. ect... bit me.

[Naglfar, Naglfar fit]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Tracking Enhancer II

Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field

6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon, Republic Fleet EMP XL
6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon, Republic Fleet EMP XL
'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Cruise Missile
'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Guristas Scourge Citadel Cruise Missile
Siege Module II

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I

Without boosts or Implants, but max skills: I get 11376 Burst tank for 4m20s, and 2287 Sustained Tank
10307 DPS

With boosts my tank bumps up to 14230/2861

So heres my questions:
Is this going to be enough tank for quad-escalations in a C5? If not what kind of tank do I need.
Should I be using cruiser missiles or torpedoes?




My Corp is also running C5 Pulsar sites.

Forget Citadel Missiles, they are useless unless for structures and other caps. Replace bcu, put damage control and tracking enhancer, replace in midslots the 2.Invu for a 2. Tracking computer and put Tracking scripts in both.

Do not worry about your tank, nagl is able to tank 2 cap escalations at once. Just make sure that at first times running the sites, your carrier is in range to refit if it is necesary. Your Naglfar will not do the same damage as Shield fitted Moros, but enought to run the sites in conformitable time. Happy Sleeperkilling :-)

Sorry for my bad english, spelling errors are for general amusement, if you find a grammar error you can keep it !!!
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#8 - 2012-08-01 10:54:04 UTC
Nags and phoenixes are useless for everything but structure shooting.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#9 - 2012-08-01 11:01:49 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Quote:
'Limos' Citadel Cruise Launcher I

I loled.

seriously, forget about the nag.
even if you do use it, youre better off with smartbombs in the 2 missile slots.

yeah, you say youre a rebel but quite honestly, if you want to run propper capital escalations, you cannot do it in a pulsar.

This guy speaks the truth. You'll probably do more damage with them too.

Citadel missiles are completely useless for PVE. It's somewhat of a game-breaker that Dreads can hit battleships at all, but be that as it may citadel missiles are the only weapon system that actually respects that logic... no amount of webbing is going to compensate for the massive signature radius of them.

Long story short, use a Moros or Rev regardless of the pulsar debuff.
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#10 - 2012-08-01 11:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Messoroz wrote:
Nags and phoenixes are useless for everything but structure shooting.

With only autocannons and no missiles fitted, basic t2 siege Naglfars do at least over 6k dps, while a pulse revelation does at least 8k. That's "only" a 2k difference. Capital missiles (with a LOT of target painter support) add a little bit on top of that.

A Naglfar is still worth more than 6 battleships, and definitely easier to tank and arrange with a small number of pilots.

So, 25% worse than other dreads, but still not completely useless.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-08-01 13:03:08 UTC
Rep does 10k, not 8.
moros does 14.
nag is pitiful.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#12 - 2012-08-01 13:14:06 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Rep does 10k, not 8.
moros does 14.
nag is pitiful.

Emphasis on the words at least and minimum. I produces those figures by fitting both ships with a maximum number of turrets, a t2 siege module and three faction damage mods, so when compared to a revelation with 10k dps, naglfar probably does 8k instead of 6k.

So it is not completely useless. It does less than other dreads, but doing less is not nothing, its just less.

There is still 75% of the worth of a better dread and thousands of damage points every second to go before uselessness.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#13 - 2012-08-01 13:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
You can get the nag upto 8.5k dps just from autocannons in a site running fit (or 9.2k with faction ammo but thats not cost effective for C5 sites) but its still a poor compromise compared to having a moros or rev there - increases the time your in site which results in higher risk of something going wrong with your site running procedure or getting ganked.
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#14 - 2012-08-01 13:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Rroff wrote:
You can get the nag upto 8.5k dps just from autocannons in a site running fit but its still a poor compromise compared to having a moros or rev there - increases the time your in site which results in higher risk of something going wrong with your site running procedure or getting ganked.

I don't think anyone denied this.

Skilled pilots however ARE a primary limiting factor in what you can do, and if you have mostly minmatar pilots, Naglfar is vastly better than not doing sites at all, or using your caldari pilots in phoenixes for it.

You can optimize the capitals you use when you have skilled pilots in abundance, but this is often not the case. Pointing out which option is the best when you have infinitely many skill points on an arbitrary number of characters is kind of... pointless.

I am getting a bit confused by the tendency of people to imply that there is no point in doing anything at all until you have the skills to run the optimal ships with all V skills. That kind of gameplay is boring as hell, and completely absurd to suggest to players who have not played since 2003.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#15 - 2012-08-01 14:33:23 UTC
Well there is a line - i.e. phoenix would never actually be able to beat the armor regen on guardians :P I don't want to put people off entirely if the nag is their only option but its not a great choice when the longer your sitting in a site exposed the higher the risk in both site procedure falling apart and someone ganking you become. A moros for instance could be killing guardians so fast that their neuting never becomes a problem whereas for the nag that might become a problem.
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-08-01 14:37:38 UTC
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Rroff wrote:
You can get the nag upto 8.5k dps just from autocannons in a site running fit but its still a poor compromise compared to having a moros or rev there - increases the time your in site which results in higher risk of something going wrong with your site running procedure or getting ganked.

I don't think anyone denied this.

Skilled pilots however ARE a primary limiting factor in what you can do, and if you have mostly minmatar pilots, Naglfar is vastly better than not doing sites at all, or using your caldari pilots in phoenixes for it.

You can optimize the capitals you use when you have skilled pilots in abundance, but this is often not the case. Pointing out which option is the best when you have infinitely many skill points on an arbitrary number of characters is kind of... pointless.

I am getting a bit confused by the tendency of people to imply that there is no point in doing anything at all until you have the skills to run the optimal ships with all V skills. That kind of gameplay is boring as hell, and completely absurd to suggest to players who have not played since 2003.




I do not understand your complaint here. People come to this forum and constantly ask questions on how to run sites, pvp, scan and so on. This is one of a very few threads where the community decided to help out by actually "holding the hand" of the original poster. They have clearly outlined why Nag is not the best ship of choice, they provided raw data on the damage output and other aspects of cap escalations and you still complain that the info they provided is not satisfactory? That they style of play is stifling?

Yes, maybe it is not a fun thing to hear for a Minmatar cap pilot that their ships aren't worth using in cap escalation but that is the reality of the situation. It is not the fault of other pilots in this thread that this is the reality of the situation, they are just calmly trying to explain the shortcoming of the Nag and that using something else will not only help out with the speed of clearing the site.
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#17 - 2012-08-01 14:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Gnaw LF wrote:
I do not understand your complaint here. People come to this forum and constantly ask questions on how to run sites, pvp, scan and so on. This is one of a very few threads where the community decided to help out by actually "holding the hand" of the original poster. They have clearly outlined why Nag is not the best ship of choice, they provided raw data on the damage output and other aspects of cap escalations and you still complain that the info they provided is not satisfactory? That they style of play is stifling?

Yes, maybe it is not a fun thing to hear for a Minmatar cap pilot that their ships aren't worth using in cap escalation but that is the reality of the situation. It is not the fault of other pilots in this thread that this is the reality of the situation, they are just calmly trying to explain the shortcoming of the Nag and that using something else will not only help out with the speed of clearing the site.

It is not pointing out the obvious properties of sub-optimal ships that I object to. It is the widespread attitude (all over EVE, not just wormhole forums) that people should either use the best ship there is or gtfo and cry in shame of their useless noobishness. Of course people will only ever make isk in wormholes with Drakes -> Tengus -> Archons and Moros's if they have the leisure to choose in time.

I fly an Archon, because I had plenty of time to choose the best possible training plan. I still don't tell people who fly other carriers to either train an archon or gtfo if they have the skills for something else. Instead I try to tell them how to make best use of what they have if I am asked. The fact that Moros is better than Naglfar was pointed out at least 8 times in this thread, and was not denied even once.

When it comes to subcapitals I am one of those noobs who does not deserve to live, since I fly legions and harbingers instead of the optimal tengus and drakes. **** the Caldari and their ****** skill books. The fact that Tengu's are superior does not need to be pointed out more than once either.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-08-01 17:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
http://eve.battleclinic.com/calculators.php?calculator=missile&explosionRadius=1750&mTargetSigRadius=400&targetVelocity=175&explosionVelocity=17&missileDamage=53197&mTargetResistance=75
(click the missile tab)


This CAN'T be right...
And those are the stats of an unwebbed unpainted Sleeper battleship without the pulsar bonus >.<


Am I on the right track with the rigs? The large semiconductor memory cells seem to give me alot more cap, I'm already at 95.2 GJ/s which is most then a lot of armor fits I see...

Also, what would a shield moros fit look like?

♞
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#19 - 2012-08-01 17:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Keith Planck wrote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/calculators.php?calculator=missile&explosionRadius=1750&mTargetSigRadius=400&targetVelocity=175&explosionVelocity=17&missileDamage=53197&mTargetResistance=75
(click the missile tab)


This CAN'T be right...
And those are the stats of an unwebbed unpainted Sleeper battleship without the pulsar bonus >.<


Am I on the right track with the rigs? The large semiconductor memory cells seem to give me alot more cap, I'm already at 95.2 GJ/s which is most then a lot of armor fits I see...

Also, what would a shield moros fit look like?


Pulsar sig bloom effect is not applied to sleepers. General advice is to use CCC rigs instead of SMCs on capitals tho there are some cases where SMCs can be used, I've not thought about it in application to site running tho.

Trust me a phoenix with 140K volley on paper applies somewhere in the region of 300-700 volley damage on an unwebbed/painted sleepless guardian and maybe twice that on a dual webbed/target painted one :| i.e. somewhere in the region of <100dps effective damage. So those 2 launchers on a nag are probably not adding anything.

IIRC I once worked out that with the max possible effective webbing and target painting i.e. 90% webbing ship, bonused TP ship a phoneix can apply a blistering 700dps to a sleeper BS.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-08-01 18:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Gnaw LF wrote:
I do not understand your complaint here. People come to this forum and constantly ask questions on how to run sites, pvp, scan and so on. This is one of a very few threads where the community decided to help out by actually "holding the hand" of the original poster. They have clearly outlined why Nag is not the best ship of choice, they provided raw data on the damage output and other aspects of cap escalations and you still complain that the info they provided is not satisfactory? That they style of play is stifling?

Yes, maybe it is not a fun thing to hear for a Minmatar cap pilot that their ships aren't worth using in cap escalation but that is the reality of the situation. It is not the fault of other pilots in this thread that this is the reality of the situation, they are just calmly trying to explain the shortcoming of the Nag and that using something else will not only help out with the speed of clearing the site.

It is not pointing out the obvious properties of sub-optimal ships that I object to. It is the widespread attitude (all over EVE, not just wormhole forums) that people should either use the best ship there is or gtfo and cry in shame of their useless noobishness. Of course people will only ever make isk in wormholes with Drakes -> Tengus -> Archons and Moros's if they have the leisure to choose in time.

I fly an Archon, because I had plenty of time to choose the best possible training plan. I still don't tell people who fly other carriers to either train an archon or gtfo if they have the skills for something else. Instead I try to tell them how to make best use of what they have if I am asked. The fact that Moros is better than Naglfar was pointed out at least 8 times in this thread, and was not denied even once.

When it comes to subcapitals I am one of those noobs who does not deserve to live, since I fly legions and harbingers instead of the optimal tengus and drakes. **** the Caldari and their ****** skill books. The fact that Tengu's are superior does not need to be pointed out more than once either.


Not just that, but that people seem to think that PvE is always about max reward/minimum pilot count (which is what leads to the RR domi/tengu setups and people trying to do crazy things with Incursions), not making use of all the resources you have (our best C4 anom times in KAIRS are still held by high-DPS RRBS fleets with a touch of logi support, not by RR Tengu balls).

As to the OP: yes, the BCSes are not needed; you get somewhere north of 6000 applied DPS with 2x webs @ best range (roughly 40km) using the 2xTE 3xRF Gyro + DC2 setup described here.

Shield Moros fit:
Quote:

Moros, shieldtanked

Damage Control II
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script

Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I, Guardian Antimatter Charge XL
Siege Module II

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


will give you 11k applied @ 40km with those same 2 webs. Tank is 13000 burst/2293 sustained with 4m25s of cap life to work with (161 GJ/s regen, 517 GJ/s usage with everything on).

If you have target painters in addition to webs coming from a Huginn though, that's big: your Nag can achieve 8k applied @ 40km if you have 2paints+2webs on the primary, which puts it right on par with a (baseline) Rev here. So: if you're still skilling for capitals, Gallente is probably the best option, but training Minmatar BS V is a good idea anyway as the Vindi, Mach, and Vargur are all good ships to be able to fly, too :) If you already have a Nag: pack them target painters! Heck, Nag will do >8500 DPS @ 40km and just shy of 9000 @ 30km using 3 webs + 3 paints on the target.