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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Dear God...

Author
Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#21 - 2012-08-01 05:25:12 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
If you don't mind me saying, it seems a bit odd to criticize the Amarrian faith for being a method of control, since that's what the vast majority of organized (or even occasionally un-organized) religions... Well, are. That is, a means to impart a collective morality, law and culture to a society, and to encourage subservience from the uneducated.


Of course other religions are instruments of social control, too. What I'm saying is that the Amarrian religion does a better job of it than most of its rivals do. The perhaps most significant example of this is that God's existence is confirmed by Amarrian legislation. This essentially means that whenever and for as long as you are within the jurisdiction of Amarrian law, the Amarrian God actually does exist.

Few if any rival religions can make the same boast.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2012-08-01 07:16:29 UTC
Why did God give the giraffe such a long neck?

Because otherwise there would be an enormous empty gap between its shoulders and its head.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Jev North
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-08-01 08:14:49 UTC
..well, crap. That actually made me smile.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Devils Embrace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-08-01 11:28:01 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
I fear I smell a troll...


No troll here, i ask God a question everynight before i sleep, it brings me great enlightenment

It's like they usually say about fantasy MMO's and men playing female characters: "If I'm going to spend alot of time watching this character, it might as well have a good looking ass".

Toros Culzean
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-08-01 12:29:12 UTC
What did your slaves think of it? Did you bother to ask? Do they believe in God? These are questions we want to know...

Cardinal Lieutenant, Retired Amarr Militia "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - The Scriptures, Prophet Kuria, Paladin's Creed

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2012-08-01 13:42:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Azdan Amith wrote:
Yes, he did.


Anyone who could come up with such a barbaric and inhumane means of post depression releasing torture should be shunned from existence, not worshipped.

If I didn't know better, I'd start to think the Amarrian faith attracts those with masochistic tendancies.


Ethanol causes dehydration, causing headaches and lethargy. After deconstruction from enzymes' work, the ethanal product proves to be at least dozen times more toxic than in its original form. It also hampers liver's ability to compensate for a loss of glucose in blood, thus, in the brain. Implies loss of concentration, fatigue, bad mood, etc. And it also creates toxic enzymes in the bloodstream itself.

From what I read, coffee is a way to increase one's own sensibility to it and to answer to your question, the mechanisms leading to hangovers probably exist to avoid body poisoning and ethilic comas.The more sensible to alcohol, the less the chances to become alcoholic.

Azdan Amith wrote:


Hardly. If this were the case we'd have abandoned the idea long ago as it serves to incite more rebellion, hatred and opposition toward our people than any level of social control.


This assertion is only true if the social control in question proves ineffective. But as you explained further above, I agree with you. There was something more.

Aria Jenneth wrote:


Ms. Katla, I'd agree with you entirely if I actually thought the Empire higher-ups typically believed themselves to be running any kind of scam. I agree that it runs beautifully, and I agree that some people down the line of history may have found it a useful method of control and encouraged it for that reason, but I actually think most Amarrian leaders have historically believed their own propaganda.

... Which is as it should be if you want stability. Genuine belief in your own product cuts down on the dangers inherent in getting your conversations overheard or message account hacked.


I am not even so sure that most of them are the zealots that they seem to be... They remain men with power. Like capsuleers, with power, a subject you are familiar with, if I am not mistaken. Or, at least, I found your thought on the matter quite brilliant.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#27 - 2012-08-01 19:17:04 UTC
Farel, for God's sake, get a hobby. Or a pet. Or a boyfriend. Or anything else. Sheesh.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2012-08-01 20:51:22 UTC
Why do you say that ... ?
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#29 - 2012-08-01 22:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
I too am unsure as to why Ava responded as she did.

I appreciated your response to Mr. Marellus statement.

Caellach Marellus wrote:
Anyone who could come up with such a barbaric and inhumane means of post depression releasing torture should be shunned from existence, not worshipped.

Shockingly, when you consume large amounts of a toxic liquid, you feel bad afterwards. This is not God being mean; it's you being stupid.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#30 - 2012-08-01 23:18:19 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Shockingly, when you consume large amounts of a toxic liquid, you feel bad afterwards. This is not God being mean; it's you being stupid.


Stupid would be if it's not worth the trade off that you get from several hours of ignorance induced bliss to all the crap that goes on around out, and a good night's sleep.

It's just an unnecessary addition when you wake up back in the cold reality of things. If everything was designed and nothing happens by accident, then that's God being mean. Space is **** enough without waking up to face it with a thudding headache.



Of course, we're being hypothetical from my point of view, as I'm no closer to believing the existence of a divine being than I am closer to getting a good night's sleep without the use of alcohol.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Natalcya Katla
Astropolitan Front
#31 - 2012-08-02 00:05:54 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Stupid would be if it's not worth the trade off that you get from several hours of ignorance induced bliss to all the crap that goes on around out, and a good night's sleep.

It's just an unnecessary addition when you wake up back in the cold reality of things. If everything was designed and nothing happens by accident, then that's God being mean. Space is **** enough without waking up to face it with a thudding headache.


You get hangovers? A capsuleer? Seriously? Are you afraid of modern implants, biomods or simple medication, or are you just a masochist?

Only the most destitute baseliners or the most hardline technophobes should have to worry about hangovers. What else do you suffer from? Scurvy?
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#32 - 2012-08-02 20:47:06 UTC
Natalcya Katla wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Stupid would be if it's not worth the trade off that you get from several hours of ignorance induced bliss to all the crap that goes on around out, and a good night's sleep.

It's just an unnecessary addition when you wake up back in the cold reality of things. If everything was designed and nothing happens by accident, then that's God being mean. Space is **** enough without waking up to face it with a thudding headache.


You get hangovers? A capsuleer? Seriously? Are you afraid of modern implants, biomods or simple medication, or are you just a masochist?


Not so much afraid, just they have side effects I'm not keen on, some stop you getting drunk entirely others just really ruin the taste of things.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Sebastian Avary
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-08-03 05:23:41 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Farel, for God's sake, get a hobby. Or a pet. Or a boyfriend. Or anything else. Sheesh.


Wow! Loving the hair, babe.

Caellach Marellus wrote:

Not so much afraid, just they have side effects I'm not keen on, some stop you getting drunk entirely others just really ruin the taste of things.


There are drugs to fix that if you don't want to use implants!

Dealing with the after-effects of your own drinking just isn't very chic, baby. ... Or maybe it's very chic! I'm going to buzz one of my area managers. Blowing up chunks and feeling like a bhaalgorn is now in!
Lyskal Oskold
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-08-03 10:27:14 UTC
The Human body is not meant to digest alcohol, hence it's violent attempts at removing the toxic drug from the body. But alcohol has effects that make people decide the side-effects are worth it. Nothing is free, you want to get drunk? Pay for it.
The Amarr God has nothing to do with it at all, considering man invented alcoholic beverages, God never thought we would be dumb enough to drink it.
God underestimated man's ability to be stupid in the pursuit of pleasure.

Giraffes look at all the shorter herbivores in their habitats and say "Don't worry, I'll eat off the top, so I don't interfere with your own herbivorous activities." They have their place and look cute!

Also Giraffes are found on quite a few temperate planets. Have studies worked out if they're a common evolutionary step or if some alien race introduced them ages ago to combat unruly foliage?

"Love is just a chemical, no matter the origin. We give it meaning by choice." - Eleanor Lamb

Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-08-03 11:36:22 UTC
Lyskal Oskold wrote:

The Amarr God has nothing to do with it at all, considering man invented alcoholic beverages, God never thought we would be dumb enough to drink it.
God underestimated man's ability to be stupid in the pursuit of pleasure.


Close, but not exactly. God didn't underestimate Man's capacity for stupidity and he isn't surprised by anything that transpires in the cluster.

God simply instituted punishments for stupidity. One of them being a hangover.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution

Lyskal Oskold
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-08-03 12:19:24 UTC
Azdan Amith wrote:
Lyskal Oskold wrote:

The Amarr God has nothing to do with it at all, considering man invented alcoholic beverages, God never thought we would be dumb enough to drink it.
God underestimated man's ability to be stupid in the pursuit of pleasure.


Close, but not exactly. God didn't underestimate Man's capacity for stupidity and he isn't surprised by anything that transpires in the cluster.

God simply instituted punishments for stupidity. One of them being a hangover.


That does sound more probable. If God is too obvious in his dealings, Man becomes dependent, if God is too discreet, Man loses hope.

"Love is just a chemical, no matter the origin. We give it meaning by choice." - Eleanor Lamb

Brother Ludwigus
#37 - 2012-08-04 23:38:16 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
If you don't mind me saying, it seems a bit odd to criticize the Amarrian faith for being a method of control, since that's what the vast majority of organized (or even occasionally un-organized) religions... Well, are. That is, a means to impart a collective morality, law and culture to a society, and to encourage subservience from the uneducated.


Precisely why the Gallentean stubbornness in promoting their own ideal of controlled populist concessions while denigrating our system of ethical and chaste living is so appalling and obscene. We're drawing from the same armoury of cultural warfare to spread ideals and promote ideas through symbolism and rhetoric. They're surely less moral than us and certainly too permissive but the aims are the same. Can't they see that the frothing, thoughtless democrat is as inane and tired an idea as the frothing, thoughtless preacher? A little more objective analysis on all sides would do us some good without resorting to this us-and-them game.

At the end of the day though, God is on our side, so...

Soli Deo gloria.

Los Muertas
HDYLTA
#38 - 2012-08-05 07:12:22 UTC
Azdan Amith wrote:

Hardly. If this were the case we'd have abandoned the idea long ago as it serves to incite more rebellion, hatred and opposition toward our people than any level of social control.


Yet you and your own people have such disdain for the ideals, rebellion and hatred of others, we are seemingly beneath you. God, your God, only exists to lift you above all of humanity, you are God's special little people whom he loves above all others, this alone serves as a self fulfilling justification of your God as it gives you(r) people license to be as horrible as you want and "scream God willed it" and when we (minmatar) smack you down a peg or two you scream "they are tools of the devil".

Its a brilliant tool of self deception your lot have employed for a very long time. When you (amarrians) fail it is the work of the devil and when you succeed (a rarity these days I know but it happens now and again). A clever way of diverting blame away from your self and onto a mysterious, malicious boogy-man (or Minmatar as the case may be) or the failings of others for not "praying hard enough".

Why a grown man should send so much time with knee bent to an unseen, unheard and uncaring creature is completely beyond me. In my Tribe we believe that Mir'mulnir, the three headed serpent whom hatched all Minmatar, did battle with the Deamon then gave all of her children the strength, courage and will to be their own masters. She defeated the deamon and gave us those gifts so she owe's us nothing and she has left this realm so she wants nothing from us. We stand, or fall, on our own, we have no one to blame but ourselves and we have no one to thank but ourselves.

When we pass we will see Mir'mulnir once more, and she will ask what we did with the gifts she gave, if we have squandered them then she will devour us, but if we did all we could with what we were gifted then we will be allowed to wonder the cosmic see's for all time free of mortal coil and fear.

To answer the original question, Yes.
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-08-05 08:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Uraniae Fehrnah
Los Muertas wrote:

Yet you and your own people have such disdain for the ideals, rebellion and hatred of others, we are seemingly beneath you. God, your God, only exists to lift you above all of humanity, you are God's special little people whom he loves above all others, this alone serves as a self fulfilling justification of your God as it gives you(r) people license to be as horrible as you want and "scream God willed it" and when we (minmatar) smack you down a peg or two you scream "they are tools of the devil".

Well, I can't deny that there are Amarrians who see things that way, but I can point out that those Amarrians are wrong. While different books of the Scriptures make reference to the Amarr as the "first before God" or His "Chosen" it does not mean God loves the Amarr. On the contrary it means the Amarr have a duty, an obligation to God, that in many ways is more burden than blessing. Further only the weak among the Empire allow themselves to shift blame away from themselves for their failings, and only the weak allow their own bias, opinions, and prejudices to guide them to improper or outright atrocious acts.

Los Muertas wrote:

Its a brilliant tool of self deception your lot have employed for a very long time. When you (amarrians) fail it is the work of the devil and when you succeed (a rarity these days I know but it happens now and again). A clever way of diverting blame away from your self and onto a mysterious, malicious boogy-man (or Minmatar as the case may be) or the failings of others for not "praying hard enough".


I touched on the self deception a bit already but this "praying hard enough" bit deserves some more attention. In my estimation it is certainly true that there are Amarrians that do not "pray hard enough." However, there are many forms of prayer and the stereotypical act of kneeling, praising, and beseeching the Divine for guidance is a poor substitute for the others. Multiple times in scripture we're told of the value of toil, of work, of suffering and bearing what can be born, and that is the stronger or purer prayer to be offered to God.

Los Muertas wrote:

Why a grown man should send so much time with knee bent to an unseen, unheard and uncaring creature is completely beyond me. In my Tribe we believe that Mir'mulnir, the three headed serpent whom hatched all Minmatar, did battle with the Deamon then gave all of her children the strength, courage and will to be their own masters. She defeated the deamon and gave us those gifts so she owe's us nothing and she has left this realm so she wants nothing from us. We stand, or fall, on our own, we have no one to blame but ourselves and we have no one to thank but ourselves.

When we pass we will see Mir'mulnir once more, and she will ask what we did with the gifts she gave, if we have squandered them then she will devour us, but if we did all we could with what we were gifted then we will be allowed to wonder the cosmic see's for all time free of mortal coil and fear.


A very interesting belief and one that I would be glad to hear more about, so thank you for sharing it. I'm curious though, would you say Mir'mulnir is as unseen and unheard from as you suggest of the Amarrian god? It seems to me that one some level Mir'mulnir could even be uncaring, as she bestowed upon you her gifts and then left rather than staying to offer guidance in times of need. This notion that She is deserving of no thanks and no blame seems a bit odd to me as well, as you just said She gave you the gifts of strength, courage, and will. Surely on some level when you exercise those gifts for good or ill, She must bear some responsibility for giving them.

I should also point out that this belief actually has noticeable similarities to Amarrian belief. Even a cursory glance at The Scriptures is enough to show that God created the Amarr, and allowed them to stray for a time (demonstrating a gift of will), until one man found his way to God and was given a gift of wisdom. With that gift he lead others into the grace of God. Even after that there were others who chose turn their back on God, and had the strength to nearly destroy the fledgling Empire before it even took to the stars. All throughout The Scriptures it's rather easy to note instances of the Amarr having these similar gifts to those given by Mir'mulnir to the Matari.

Another similarity is notion of death followed by judgement followed by reward or punishment. Where you mention a cosmic sea free of fear and mortal failings, an Amarrian would mention Paradise in the eternal light of God. Where Mir'mulnir might devour those that squandered their gifts, God might cast out those who lived a life of worthlessness.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-08-05 11:26:51 UTC
Los Muertas wrote:

Yet you and your own people have such disdain for the ideals, rebellion and hatred of others, we are seemingly beneath you. God, your God, only exists to lift you above all of humanity, you are God's special little people whom he loves above all others, this alone serves as a self fulfilling justification of your God as it gives you(r) people license to be as horrible as you want and "scream God willed it" and when we (minmatar) smack you down a peg or two you scream "they are tools of the devil".


No doubt there are some whom would live their lives in such a way and uphold what you've described here, but it is an entirely incorrect doctrine and false representation of Scripture. The Amarr are Chosen only in that we were found to be living righteously at one point in history when God stepped down to judge the rampant unrighteousness that had spread through his creation. This position as God's Chosen came with a sacred charge to be examples of righteousness and to seek to guide all others into the same fold so that all of humanity could be righteous before God.

Using God to justify evil and wickedness is blasphemy and anyone seeking to fulfill their own will above God's is a traitor to the faith. That, unfortunately, does not mean great evils have not been done in God's name; only that they were done unjustly and had God's name erroneously attached to them. Such instances will bring judgment down upon the offenders, though we may not know when or where that judgment will occur.

Los Muertas wrote:
Its a brilliant tool of self deception your lot have employed for a very long time. When you (amarrians) fail it is the work of the devil and when you succeed (a rarity these days I know but it happens now and again). A clever way of diverting blame away from your self and onto a mysterious, malicious boogy-man (or Minmatar as the case may be) or the failings of others for not "praying hard enough".


I am curious about this "devil" you keep referencing. This particular character is never mentioned in Scripture. If you have been taught about the existence of this creature by an Amarr then they have been teaching you a false doctrine.

Los Muertas wrote:
Why a grown man should send so much time with knee bent to an unseen, unheard and uncaring creature is completely beyond me. In my Tribe we believe that Mir'mulnir, the three headed serpent whom hatched all Minmatar, did battle with the Deamon then gave all of her children the strength, courage and will to be their own masters. She defeated the deamon and gave us those gifts so she owe's us nothing and she has left this realm so she wants nothing from us. We stand, or fall, on our own, we have no one to blame but ourselves and we have no one to thank but ourselves.


To the first, God is not unheard or uncaring, nor is he a "creature." (For a creature must have been created, God has no beginning and is not part of creation). It amuses me that you accuse the Amarr of being entirely self-serving yet tell me of a tribal belief in which all glory falls upon yourselves and you are the final sources of all justice and strength.

The Amarr understand that God is sovereign and we give all glory to him for what transpires in this existence. Even through difficulty, we know that it is not our strength that will sustain us, for our own strength is fleeting and fragile, but the strength of the overseer God whom is beyond all obstacle. Thus, when hardship has been overcome or success has been attained, the glory belongs to God.

In failure, we look toward the lessons we are meant to learn. The tests of our faith that we did not fully overcome or the obstacles we failed to navigate. Oft times our failures are the results of seeking our own will instead of God's, or relying on our own limited resources instead of God's. Sometimes our failures are instruments used by God to instruct and shape us. Sometimes failure is a judgment from God for our own sins and strays.

Los Muertas wrote:
When we pass we will see Mir'mulnir once more, and she will ask what we did with the gifts she gave, if we have squandered them then she will devour us, but if we did all we could with what we were gifted then we will be allowed to wonder the cosmic see's for all time free of mortal coil and fear.


Thank you for telling me of your tribe's beliefs.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution