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CSM 7 Spring Summit minutes progress

First post
Author
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-07-31 19:11:13 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
All I hear are excuses.
All I hear is a sense of entitlement.
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2012-07-31 19:13:28 UTC
Is it too much to ask for in depth detailed minutes the day after the summits are over?
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2012-07-31 19:14:47 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
All I hear are excuses.
All I hear is a sense of entitlement.

Comes with the subscription.
None ofthe Above
#144 - 2012-07-31 20:18:01 UTC
FYI - From Twitter today:

Quote:

CCP_Manifest ‏@CCP_Manifest

CSM minutes will be out this week. Final internal pass with people on vacation is tough.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#145 - 2012-07-31 20:24:57 UTC
The tough part of those vacations would be working, while your vacation people keep sending pics of all the fun they are doing. Bonus damage, for sending them while your co-workers are in meetings.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#146 - 2012-07-31 20:43:41 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
All I hear are excuses.
All I hear is a sense of entitlement.

Comes with the subscription.

AFAIK, CSM people aren't paid by your subscription, so ... hmm ... no.

And if you desire to hear excuses then you'll hear excuses, reality be damned. I don't think anyone can change that over the internet, it's hard enough IRL.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#147 - 2012-07-31 21:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
The minutes will be released the minute that both CCP and the CSM agree on the contents. It's easy to say "minutes on Monday" if you assume that every edit will be approved by every party involved. As Poetic observed, minutes creation is a bit of ping-pong - we send our copy to CCP, they look it over, make changes, we get it back, if there's a change or deletion we don't like, we make our points and send it back. The only thing holding up the minutes at this point is the final stage of this process - in particular a conversation about a few items that were borderline-NDA that the CSM preferred remain in the final minutes. Many thanks to CCP Manifest for his flexibility and hard work getting all the necessary approvals and permissions so that we can get these out very soon.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2012-07-31 21:32:10 UTC
I just want to, for once, read about the intent and direction the game is going before it actually happens. Waiting for key people to go on vacation before you get the minutes done is terrible planning. You can say I'm over reacting all you want, but I'm just being practical. No one forced them to take on the task of being a CSM representative. They wanted it. They got it. Volunteer or not; procrastination of this magnitude is never acceptable. Have people in your group/team who do nothing is not acceptable either. Replace them. No rules in place to do so? Make them.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2012-07-31 22:10:03 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
[Having] people in your group/team who do nothing is not acceptable either. Replace them. No rules in place to do so? Make them.
It would be a dream to have slackers like Darius III and Kelduum Revaan kicked from the CSM.
None ofthe Above
#150 - 2012-07-31 22:46:24 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
I just want to, for once, read about the intent and direction the game is going before it actually happens. Waiting for key people to go on vacation before you get the minutes done is terrible planning. You can say I'm over reacting all you want, but I'm just being practical. No one forced them to take on the task of being a CSM representative. They wanted it. They got it. Volunteer or not; procrastination of this magnitude is never acceptable. Have people in your group/team who do nothing is not acceptable either. Replace them. No rules in place to do so? Make them.


While I do think a procedure for removing bad/useless CSM members is worthy of considering, as I am all for reform and accountability... a couple of counter-points:

* Not sure if any on the current CSM really need it. I think certain factions/individuals like to spread rumors of internal discord in the CSM to devalue it, for whatever reason. (This is not pointed at Poetic necessarily, btw.) Outside of Darius, as far as I can tell the CSM has actually been getting along pretty well. The initial kerfuffle with Issler was seized upon and sensationalized. Even Darius as I understand it isn't as much at odds with this CSM as he was with the last, although as ever doesn't seem to be a team player.

* These are passionate volunteers. It's not their job. They aren't getting paid. (Aside from the trip to Iceland for some of them, and they generally work there, it's not a vacation.) Its understandable if real life interferes with their volunteer duties from time to time (but that should be taken into account later in the next election).

* So far any lost CSM are just lost, no replacements. So if you do get someone removed, its not going free up a spot for someone else to come in. That also could be changed, but is it really feasible?

So the mechanism as it stands is for us to remember and use that knowledge when we vote next time.

--

On the timeliness of the Minutes side, I tend to agree. It is important to balance the extra detail with timeliness, since as time passes the detail becomes less relevant. As Poetic pointed out, Seleene and Two Step did a good job on preliminary reports that nearly rose to the level of minutes of the past, and that was a very good thing -- although teasing us with hints of even more insight.

I think most of us understand that there were significant extenuating circumstances to the delay of this year's minutes (largely new CSM, some crazy politics, a lot more data captured at the summit and earlier delays let this run into CCPs vacation time) and so are willing to cut some slack. Hopefully next time they will be able to turn this around quicker.

As much as I am eager to see the minutes and have my own frustrations about them not being ready yet, I very much appreciate the effort the CSM and CCP is going through to raise the bar and improve the process.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#151 - 2012-07-31 23:03:42 UTC
^Nice post. I just don't know if they can do it quicker. Like the problem Hans pointed out. The players will always want more and more information, and it will always be hard for CCP to give it out, or let NDA slide easily. Plus real life stuff, usually always happens. I highly doubt a composition of hard workers really will be elected. (Unless Trebor moves to North Korea and allows himself to be cloned.) I am just saying, if the level of quality for CSM minutes keeps running as the quality of the upcoming minutes. It will most likely always be a long wait.

Not really sure what they could do, to make the wait easier. Suppose CCP is trying with the dev blog releases coming out lately, but its still a bit too hard.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

None ofthe Above
#152 - 2012-07-31 23:27:34 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
rodyas wrote:
^Nice post. I just don't know if they can do it quicker. Like the problem Hans pointed out. The players will always want more and more information, and it will always be hard for CCP to give it out, or let NDA slide easily. Plus real life stuff, usually always happens. I highly doubt a composition of hard workers really will be elected. (Unless Trebor moves to North Korea and allows himself to be cloned.) I am just saying, if the level of quality for CSM minutes keeps running as the quality of the upcoming minutes. It will most likely always be a long wait.

Not really sure what they could do, to make the wait easier. Suppose CCP is trying with the dev blog releases coming out lately, but its still a bit too hard.


Thank you.

I remain hopeful that next summit's minutes can be delivered in a more timely manner.

I think after this last summit's minutes are delivered (and we sift through the now novel length minutes) we can discuss ways to do that as well as the contents, but for the mean time I am content enough to be patient as the minutes wind its way through the last steps before release.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#153 - 2012-07-31 23:57:03 UTC
Well, for some reason I have to nay say you. So I thought of some good ideas. Right now, we don't know what the minutes will say, as in if they are worth waiting for so long. In these last steps, CCP could strip out parts of the minutes, and the minutes won't be worth waiting for as long as we had waited. Of course CCP could let them stay, (or add more) then they could be worth waiting for. So I mean to say, we the players, are buying the chicken or cow, before we even see it. Most people in grocery stores, like to make sure the veggies are ripe before they buy them.

I mean it does sound like the minutes will be awesome, but perhaps not always, or maybe the awesome parts are just to against NDA and won't be added.

A simple way to make the minutes get out faster, is just to cut alot of the juice out (since that might be most against NDA). Or we can just gamble with time and hope we win, or maybe we go bankrupt.

It does feel a little silly arguing so much, when it propably is shortly to release date. But I am still bored and hard to be content with nothing.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2012-08-01 00:23:46 UTC
Ok let me ask this. How much of these minutes will still be relevant by the time they come out?
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#155 - 2012-08-01 00:36:53 UTC
pages 1-60, page 82, pages 140-189. Then page 201.

The rest will just be filler, and trying to impress us.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#156 - 2012-08-01 00:51:55 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Ok let me ask this. How much of these minutes will still be relevant by the time they come out?

The answer is in this thread, in a post within the first 5 pages, by a CSM member.
You've already been told (Or at least, have the option to find out with no effort on your own).

Should they "reiterate" on their original statement, or should they be spending time on stuff that is more important, either to themselves or to the community through their CSM commitment (Not that those are necessarily mutually exclusive)?
Marconus Orion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2012-08-01 00:57:29 UTC
rodyas wrote:
pages 1-60, page 82, pages 140-189. Then page 201.

The rest will just be filler, and trying to impress us.

Heh. Probably pretty accurate.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#158 - 2012-08-01 01:00:52 UTC
There is also the intro, the table of contents, the index, as well as an afterthought written by Hilmar, but I will leave it up to you to decide whether those are revelant.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne

None ofthe Above
#159 - 2012-08-01 02:28:10 UTC
Marconus Orion wrote:
Ok let me ask this. How much of these minutes will still be relevant by the time they come out?


That's an important question that we'll most likely get to come to an informed opinion on soon.

My impression is that they were largely talking about the winter expansion so probably quite a bit. Inferno was fairly set at the point of the summit, although I know that some of the 1.1 and 1.2 changes were discussed.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#160 - 2012-08-01 06:42:42 UTC
CCP Manifest twitter So we only have a day or two left. Everyone better protect their reading glasses from getting scratched or broken. Also will propably be best to do a few eye stretches and warm ups, before the release.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne