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Awaiting New Minmatar Excuse.

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#41 - 2012-07-31 20:46:38 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
chatgris wrote:

First off - I don't think Hans had any part in what we see now, didn't he join the CSM after all these design decisions were pretty much made?

And secondly - CCP has made FW SO DAMN GOOD. Could it be better? Sure. Have they made HUGE improvments? YES!

I'm Minmatar militia, and yes Nulli are rolling our occupancy, but there is a FANTASTIC amount of pvp to be had. There's people in frigates everywhere - CCP finally made a version of FW that gave nullsec alliances a reason to leave their huge blobs and go into size restricted plexes. Which means a HUGE population boost for FW, and TONS of fights to be had.

I remember pre-inferno: Caldari militia had all but given up, there was nothing to shoot at in lowsec but neutrals here and there. The same few bittervets had been shooting the same few bittervets for years.

Before inferno came out - I had cancelled both of my accounts and one had already expired. I grudgingly logged in post inferno to find ORANGE, ORANGE EVERYWHERE!

FW is so much better now because they gave incentives for people to come to militia. I mean seriously, there's a *whole nullsec alliance* of about 1800 members rolling around doing their best to take occupancy, and that means a dispersion of small ship power.

Living a few jumps from an 1800 member FW alliance interested in plexing is HEAVEN. And it's because of the incentives!


Eh.

The NullSec alliances aren't coming to fight. They're coming to get rich via exploitation of (still somwhat dodgy) FW mechanics. Goons did it with the LP rewards from ship kills, and now Nulli are doing it by holding systems in perpetual Vulnerability so they can farm them for infinite LP before flipping, upgrading, and cashing out.

The solution to this is simple and possibly two fold:

1) Vulnerable systems do not award LP for offensive plexing.
and/or
2) Systems that are Vulnerable for more than 24 hours auto-flip at the next DT.



This would mean that pvp'ers in the faction with the least amount of plex farmers will never be able to earn isk for pvp. Number of plexers will directly relate to number of systems held and the losing side will never be able to accrue enough systems for decent payout. Auto flipping would be the worst idea and would negate one of the only two balancing effects in the current mechanics, the ability to stack up systems (the other being no lp for defensive plexing).

Your system would go further down the road to defeating a faction, something that should not be desirable since it will result in member churning and a pure alt farm with no realistic opposition.


People were making ISK just fine before vulnerable systems were being farmed.



Not really. Amarr was making no isk. The reason amarr got back in the game was due to no lp for defensive plexing and the fact that systems don't automatically flip.

I think your first solution is ok. But your second proposal is bad.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#42 - 2012-07-31 20:48:06 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
chatgris wrote:

First off - I don't think Hans had any part in what we see now, didn't he join the CSM after all these design decisions were pretty much made?

And secondly - CCP has made FW SO DAMN GOOD. Could it be better? Sure. Have they made HUGE improvments? YES!

I'm Minmatar militia, and yes Nulli are rolling our occupancy, but there is a FANTASTIC amount of pvp to be had. There's people in frigates everywhere - CCP finally made a version of FW that gave nullsec alliances a reason to leave their huge blobs and go into size restricted plexes. Which means a HUGE population boost for FW, and TONS of fights to be had.

I remember pre-inferno: Caldari militia had all but given up, there was nothing to shoot at in lowsec but neutrals here and there. The same few bittervets had been shooting the same few bittervets for years.

Before inferno came out - I had cancelled both of my accounts and one had already expired. I grudgingly logged in post inferno to find ORANGE, ORANGE EVERYWHERE!

FW is so much better now because they gave incentives for people to come to militia. I mean seriously, there's a *whole nullsec alliance* of about 1800 members rolling around doing their best to take occupancy, and that means a dispersion of small ship power.

Living a few jumps from an 1800 member FW alliance interested in plexing is HEAVEN. And it's because of the incentives!


Eh.

The NullSec alliances aren't coming to fight. They're coming to get rich via exploitation of (still somwhat dodgy) FW mechanics. Goons did it with the LP rewards from ship kills, and now Nulli are doing it by holding systems in perpetual Vulnerability so they can farm them for infinite LP before flipping, upgrading, and cashing out.

The solution to this is simple and possibly two fold:

1) Vulnerable systems do not award LP for offensive plexing.
and/or
2) Systems that are Vulnerable for more than 24 hours auto-flip at the next DT.



This would mean that pvp'ers in the faction with the least amount of plex farmers will never be able to earn isk for pvp. Number of plexers will directly relate to number of systems held and the losing side will never be able to accrue enough systems for decent payout. Auto flipping would be the worst idea and would negate one of the only two balancing effects in the current mechanics, the ability to stack up systems (the other being no lp for defensive plexing).

Your system would go further down the road to defeating a faction, something that should not be desirable since it will result in member churning and a pure alt farm with no realistic opposition.


People were making ISK just fine before vulnerable systems were being farmed.



Not really. Amarr was making no isk. The reason amarr got back in the game was due to no lp for defensive plexing and the fact that systems don't automatically flip.

I think your first solution is ok. But your second proposal is bad.


Well that was because NPC's were imbalanced right?

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#43 - 2012-07-31 21:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Xuixien wrote:

People were making ISK just fine before vulnerable systems were being farmed.


The system being vuln or not isnt the point. Its the value of the lp dictated by the tier system which in turn is controlled by the number of owned systems that is.

If systems are swapping constantly there will ne no opportunity for the losing side to ever reach a reasonable rate of income greater than that of say, high sec level 4 missions.

Tbh, i must just be not in the mood for retards, if you dont understand this simple consequence of what you suggest, un-install eve and sell your computer.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#44 - 2012-07-31 21:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
TLDR: Just some random thoughts whilst drinking some wine - just skip.

Cearain wrote:


Paying characters to defensive plex does not pvp create. The problem is not that the focus is on offensive plexing. Defensive plexing requires no guns either! The problem is that plexing always has been most efficiently done in pve ships and avoiding pvp. CCP didn't do anything to change this. They just added consequences.



I never suggested LP for defensive plexing and tbh, I can't really come up with a good solution for plexing either. If anything, either making killing all the rats in order to capture the plex a prerequisite would get rid of the cheap few day old plexing alts taking majors left and right, just warping out as soon as anything appears on dscan.

They (imho) impact capture status to a bigger extent than most 'serious' militia corps do (disclaimer: I don't have any numbers to back this statement up, it's just an estimate).

However, shooting red crosses and grinding HP are some of the worst game mechanics in Eve and yes - the system would still be farmed and exploited, but I guess that will almost always be the case as Eve-players are masters at that.

Just getting rid of any NPC in plexes would at least get rid of any imbalances and since plexing only rewards LP and in the long run will just end up in LP inflation, I don't have a problem with that as I have with incursions, since it removes isk from the economy instead of flooding it with them.

Quote:

To be fair to ccp and hans, the players were crying for "consequences" and glossed over the fact that plexing is really a pve game. Lots of people said if there are consequences then we will pvp for plexes. Only a few people realized that adding consequences to a pve system will just create farmville and not really improve things. But we were in the, often despised, minority.




Admittedly, I have occasionally made comments in these threads (probably on my old FW character - can't really remember) and yes, I called for consequences too. However, I never called for entire system docking rights flipping.

Everything occupancy-related should only affect militia stations, which would have led to a less lopsided snowball-like effect and a more interesting tactical setting, leading to shifts in systems strategic importance etc..


But yeah - probably the wrong thread for this kind of discussion and there are plenty of better ones for that around, so I'll leave for the deeply involved roleplayers identifying with their militia, hurling general insults at 'the Amarr' or 'the Minnies' (who are 'they' anyway? It has always been dynamic and none of the corps in last months Amarr top killers were even around when I was - so as far as I'm concerned, Nulli are just as 'Amarr' as any of the alliances in the 24th IC as long as they're enlisted).
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#45 - 2012-07-31 22:04:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Large Collidable Object wrote:


I never suggested LP for defensive plexing and tbh, I can't really come up with a good solution for plexing either. If anything, either making killing all the rats in order to capture the plex a prerequisite would get rid of the cheap few day old plexing alts taking majors left and right, just warping out as soon as anything appears on dscan.


Correct, the rest of the current mechanics of swinging occupancy can be explored without breaking anyones game permanently due to the balancing effect of no lp for defence and perma-vulnerable systems. But making kill all rats would definitely reduce the unwanted non-pvp activities on the plex front and may even encourage some of them to fight given that they now have to fit shiny new guns.

Just like this guy who has 4 kills in his entire eve career who i convinced to engage me earlier.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14182177
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#46 - 2012-07-31 22:27:17 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Correct, the rest of the current mechanics of swinging occupancy can be explored without breaking anyones game permanently due to the balancing effect of no lp for defence and perma-vulnerable systems. But making kill all rats would definitely reduce the unwanted non-pvp activities on the plex front and may even encourage some of them to fight given that they now have to fit shiny new guns.


Well - I'm not sure that would entirely solve the problem and I strongly dislike game mechanics involving red crosses, timers and structure grind, but at least they would have to bring a proper ship/gang to take a major - but I'd expect to see a lot of cloaky Proteus'.

Quote:

Just like this guy who has 4 kills in his entire eve career who i convinced to engage me earlier.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14182177


To be fair to the guy, everyone has to start somewhere and anything that lures carebears out of highsec is dearly needed for eve - and he's not just as farmer - at least he had a point and guns fitted.

KB stats are overrated anyway. I used to play for killmails - now I don't give a damn about them - canceled my api subscription to battleclinic and don't post them anymore.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#47 - 2012-07-31 22:27:56 UTC
I wont lie, I chuckled a bit when I read the OP

6/10
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#48 - 2012-07-31 22:28:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:

People were making ISK just fine before vulnerable systems were being farmed.


The system being vuln or not isnt the point. Its the value of the lp dictated by the tier system which in turn is controlled by the number of owned systems that is.

If systems are swapping constantly there will ne no opportunity for the losing side to ever reach a reasonable rate of income greater than that of say, high sec level 4 missions.


What is player driven content? What is "defense" and why should we do it to systems?

These things are hard. CCP should change the system so Warbears can make risk-free billions, even if they're losing.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-07-31 22:43:22 UTC
Salicaz wrote:
Pre-Inferno you performed a massive land grab- Then claimed it was your leet pvp.

Just after inferno you took system after system (sorry, the alt army did) due to imbalanced rats..yet..still claimed it was your leet pvp

Before nulli joined you had 19 vunerable systems, this is because no pvper wants to dplex (understandable) and your gunless frig brigade won't do it, and have no nowhere to now plex have left you.

A few months ago you all thought this was immensly funny rolling around in your isk toasting each other about how leet your pvp was whilst being space rich. Working as intended even. Whilst denying it was the hordes of LP farmers dictating the front.

However, now you spend most of your time reallocating assets, the forum noise has stopped. Where is your leet pvp to stop us? Didn't both Hans and Susan claim "we should have fought harder"? Where is your leet pvp?

And for the record, Nulli are like the Americans of WW2. They shortened the conflict a bit, but will still claim they won the war.

So Minmitar, please. Leave your excuses here.



Id say the Americans did much more than "shortened the conflict a bit". Show some respect.-
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#50 - 2012-07-31 22:50:17 UTC
Pax Thar wrote:
Salicaz wrote:
Pre-Inferno you performed a massive land grab- Then claimed it was your leet pvp.

Just after inferno you took system after system (sorry, the alt army did) due to imbalanced rats..yet..still claimed it was your leet pvp

Before nulli joined you had 19 vunerable systems, this is because no pvper wants to dplex (understandable) and your gunless frig brigade won't do it, and have no nowhere to now plex have left you.

A few months ago you all thought this was immensly funny rolling around in your isk toasting each other about how leet your pvp was whilst being space rich. Working as intended even. Whilst denying it was the hordes of LP farmers dictating the front.

However, now you spend most of your time reallocating assets, the forum noise has stopped. Where is your leet pvp to stop us? Didn't both Hans and Susan claim "we should have fought harder"? Where is your leet pvp?

And for the record, Nulli are like the Americans of WW2. They shortened the conflict a bit, but will still claim they won the war.

So Minmitar, please. Leave your excuses here.



Id say the Americans did much more than "shortened the conflict a bit". Show some respect.-


Bro it's okay. Haters gonna hate.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#51 - 2012-07-31 22:50:23 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:

People were making ISK just fine before vulnerable systems were being farmed.


The system being vuln or not isnt the point. Its the value of the lp dictated by the tier system which in turn is controlled by the number of owned systems that is.

If systems are swapping constantly there will ne no opportunity for the losing side to ever reach a reasonable rate of income greater than that of say, high sec level 4 missions.


What is player driven content? What is "defense" and why should we do it to systems?

These things are hard. CCP should change the system so Warbears can make risk-free billions, even if they're losing.



In your system you are about to be losing simply because an 1800man alliance joined your enemy. If you think that you should deserve to be unable to support pvp costs simply because some null bears got kicked from their sov and decided to sit in fw for a few weeks then go right ahead.
Personally i dont think its very healthy for fw but then im not ******** so we might see things a little differently.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#52 - 2012-07-31 23:04:20 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:

People were making ISK just fine before vulnerable systems were being farmed.


The system being vuln or not isnt the point. Its the value of the lp dictated by the tier system which in turn is controlled by the number of owned systems that is.

If systems are swapping constantly there will ne no opportunity for the losing side to ever reach a reasonable rate of income greater than that of say, high sec level 4 missions.


What is player driven content? What is "defense" and why should we do it to systems?

These things are hard. CCP should change the system so Warbears can make risk-free billions, even if they're losing.



In your system you are about to be losing simply because an 1800man alliance joined your enemy. If you think that you should deserve to be unable to support pvp costs simply because some null bears got kicked from their sov and decided to sit in fw for a few weeks then go right ahead.


Yes Minmatar is in a bad position, and this is perfectly OK. That's the nature of Factional Warfare - it's a static war. The "losers" of today are the "winners" of tomorrow. The basic premise of the system is working fine; winners are being rewarded and losers are being penalized. This system is in place to motivate and drive conflict. It seems to have had the dual effect of also motivating and driving a lot of crying and whining. This is also OK.

A major NullSec alliance has indeed joined FW with the sole intent of filling it's coffers and bouncing. If it works, there's nothing at all stopping any major alliance from executing the same strategy, perhaps even two BFF Alliances joining opposing sides and farming the system into oblivion to fund their NullSec wars. This would be sad. But it could be avoided by switching to a system where vulnerable systems don't provide LP for offensive plexing and/or systems auto-flip after 24 hours.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#53 - 2012-07-31 23:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Xuixien wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:

People were making ISK just fine before vulnerable systems were being farmed.


The system being vuln or not isnt the point. Its the value of the lp dictated by the tier system which in turn is controlled by the number of owned systems that is.

If systems are swapping constantly there will ne no opportunity for the losing side to ever reach a reasonable rate of income greater than that of say, high sec level 4 missions.


What is player driven content? What is "defense" and why should we do it to systems?

These things are hard. CCP should change the system so Warbears can make risk-free billions, even if they're losing.



In your system you are about to be losing simply because an 1800man alliance joined your enemy. If you think that you should deserve to be unable to support pvp costs simply because some null bears got kicked from their sov and decided to sit in fw for a few weeks then go right ahead.


Yes Minmatar is in a bad position, and this is perfectly OK. That's the nature of Factional Warfare - it's a static war. The "losers" of today are the "winners" of tomorrow. The basic premise of the system is working fine; winners are being rewarded and losers are being penalized. This system is in place to motivate and drive conflict. It seems to have had the dual effect of also motivating and driving a lot of crying and whining. This is also OK.

A major NullSec alliance has indeed joined FW with the sole intent of filling it's coffers and bouncing. If it works, there's nothing at all stopping any major alliance from executing the same strategy, perhaps even two BFF Alliances joining opposing sides and farming the system into oblivion to fund their NullSec wars. This would be sad. But it could be avoided by switching to a system where vulnerable systems don't provide LP for offensive plexing and/or systems auto-flip after 24 hours.


Under your suggested system if nulli stay and no one can interest another entity to join then the minmatar are the losers of today AND tomorrow. With perma vuln systems and no lp for defensive systems matar still have a reason and can afford to fight and plex as the sheer numbers of the enemy is balanced by the mechanics. If there are no mechanics to utilize to counter superior numbers, fw becomes null sec where the side with more numbers is the only side that can afford to fight the war.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#54 - 2012-07-31 23:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Under your suggested system if nulli stay and no one can interest another entity to join then the minmatar are the losers of today AND tomorrow. With perma vuln systems and no lp for defensive systems matar still have a reason and can afford to fight and plex as the sheer numbers of the enemy is balanced by the mechanics.


You'll have to elaborate more.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#55 - 2012-07-31 23:26:05 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
KB stats are overrated anyway. I used to play for killmails - now I don't give a damn about them - canceled my api subscription to battleclinic and don't post them anymore.

WHAT??!!!
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#56 - 2012-07-31 23:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Xuixien wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Under your suggested system if nulli stay and no one can interest another entity to join then the minmatar are the losers of today AND tomorrow. With perma vuln systems and no lp for defensive systems matar still have a reason and can afford to fight and plex as the sheer numbers of the enemy is balanced by the mechanics.


Sorry I'm not seeing. You'll have to elaborate more.


Im sorry, you are ********.

A simplified example, a warzone of 10 systems. 100 plexers on one side and 10 plexers on the other. These systems auto flip.

Assuming that these plexers plex at the same rate, the side with 10 plexers can only hold onto 1 system at any given time. This is not reflective of skill or ability, its just a numbers game like nullsec.

Obviously ushra khan are well known terrible role players but for those of us that just want fun pvp that we (and our enemy) can afford without entirely crippling anyone by the 'virtue' of outnumbering them, the current mechanics of no lp for defensive plex and perma vuln systems seem to be an interesting balancing mechanic. To throw that mechanic away will ultimately create 'losers' with no prospect of affording to pvp reliant on their enemies getting bored and leaving fw. If losers is what you want then i suggest that you get right back to losing in nullsec.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#57 - 2012-07-31 23:47:41 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Under your suggested system if nulli stay and no one can interest another entity to join then the minmatar are the losers of today AND tomorrow. With perma vuln systems and no lp for defensive systems matar still have a reason and can afford to fight and plex as the sheer numbers of the enemy is balanced by the mechanics.


Sorry I'm not seeing. You'll have to elaborate more.


A simplified example, a warzone of 10 systems. 100 plexers on one side and 10 plexers on the other. These systems auto flip.

Assuming that these plexers plex at the same rate, the side with 10 plexers can only hold onto 1 system at any given time. This is not reflective of skill or ability, its just a numbers game like nullsec.


The problem with your example is that, besides being oversimplified to the point of uselessness, is that as far as system control is concerned it's going to be a numbers game either way, so you're making a moot point.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#58 - 2012-07-31 23:50:42 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
KB stats are overrated anyway. I used to play for killmails - now I don't give a damn about them - canceled my api subscription to battleclinic and don't post them anymore.

WHAT??!!!



I have a rather new 20 mill SP frig alt just for some cheap, fun solo pvp - got a couple of solo kills in it, got ganked a couple of times.

Eve kill still only shows 1 kill but most of the losses - makes it look like a total failure in pvp to KM whores checking killboards before engaging, but it's a hell of a lot easier to get fights in that than it is on e.g. a 120 mill+ SP char with 'decent stats' flying the exact same ship with basically the same skillset being applied.

I wish people wouldn't post their losses/Api subscribe though.

It's fun - you should try.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#59 - 2012-08-01 01:54:43 UTC
Keep it on topic please. No need to drag actual countries into this.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#60 - 2012-08-01 02:32:03 UTC
My 2 Cents~

Amarr figured out how to abuse the system (infinite LP on Vulnerable systems + massive offensive plex buffers making it impossible to decontest) so good job on that, ya'll won in that regard (and to think you guys complain about FW mechanics :P).

Amarr finally realized that, "Wow, you know... we really do have a lot of guys!" at about the same time Minmatar folk were going away on vacation or taking EVE-breaks and becoming lost in thousands of Steam Summer Sale games. (OMG Crusader Kings II owns my life now.)

Nulli Secunda showed up to Kourmonen with 150 dudes. Congrats on taking that system, I know you've wanted it for a long time and between the latest push for it and all of the past ones that fell a bit short, you deserve it.

We'll be around defending Huola and trying to take back Kourmonen, so see you on the battlefield. Really, Inferno has created more fights than ever in Faction Warfare. It's not really CCP's fault that one side or the other has more numbers/firepower at any given time, that is just the way the cookie crumbles.

Bear

I'm having fun. Big smile

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.