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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

First post
Author
Dave Stark
#101 - 2012-07-31 20:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Tippia wrote:
If you're solo, decide what you're going after next and pick up the appropriate selection of crystals


and why would it be so bad for me to be able to warp in to a belt, equip crystals for whatever asteroids are left after i get home from doing whatever i was doing that day and beginning to mine rather than having to warp there, check what's left, warp back, get crystals, warp to the belt again etc.

honestly; what is being broken by just letting us carry the crystals, like we can now?

as for your comment about crystal less t1 strips etc; that's kinda the point. if you use macks then you don't need to be crystal less since due to having less strips you have space for a more reasonable compliment of crystals. also depending on the size of the op; yes an extra miner with people in "inferior" ships will be more efficient. so even in a fleet the hulk isn't really filling it's role.
granted it's only valid for small ops however generally if you offer some one a roam over a mining op people will go on the roam. there aren't many people who would rather shoot rocks than other people in my experience.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#102 - 2012-07-31 20:16:24 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:


Hauling involves tractor beams, and not very frequently, the timing of rocks depleting or crystals going usually do not coincide with this task. Tractor beams are not very effective at pushing stuff around either.

In any case, why is your method of mining the way everyone else in the game should play by?



Beware you are going to engage pure theorycrafters who never did anything in their life but gank (a la Ruby Porto) or absolute forum warriors who never experienced what they talk about (Tippia).

You cannot win on the forums against them, don't even try.
Kristen Andelare
Night's Shadows
#103 - 2012-07-31 20:16:35 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Kristen Andelare wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
That is fine and dandy for high sec mining, with those who like to bunch up there hulks, but when you are mining with no rorq/orca in the belt/grav, there is no easy way to change out crystals without having to shut down your mining and go get more. No one is going to want to be a dedicated crystal boy.
Then get your fleet in order or accept the lower rate of production. If no-one is willing to put the effort in to get the most out of the belt, then the fleet who does will do better. This is as it should be.

In fact, if you can't get Rorq/Orca support, then maybe the Hulk is the wrong tool to begin with. This, too, is as it should be.



Thank you Tippia, again, the voice of reason.

Additionally, if he's mining with no Orca/Rorqual support in the wilds of nullsec or lowsec, does he have at least a hauler? Crystals brought by a hauler are like mana from heaven. If he isn't then he's docking somewhere, where he could grab more.



Hauling involves tractor beams, and not very frequently, the timing of rocks depleting or crystals going usually do not coincide with this task. Tractor beams are not very effective at pushing stuff around either. And we're not competent pilots enough in our haulers to hit the mark on the jet cans 9 times out of 10.

In any case, why is my hard-headness any of your business? I want what I want and I'm going to whine until I get it, so there.


There, I fixed your post for you.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#104 - 2012-07-31 20:18:06 UTC
Even the most flawless of crystal assortment plans can and will go array, leaving the poor hulk lasers idling away with no rocks to smote.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#105 - 2012-07-31 20:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Dave stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
If you're solo, decide what you're going after next and pick up the appropriate selection of crystals


and why would it be so bad for me to be able to warp in to a belt, equip crystals for whatever asteroids are left after i get home from doing whatever i was doing that day and beginning to mine rather than having to warp there, check what's left, warp back, get crystals, warp to the belt again etc.

honestly; what is being broken by just letting us carry the crystals, like we can now?


You don't know but T20 and sub cap killing Titans fits are NOTHING compared to how absolutely game breaking is being able to bring the crystals you need. You'll be lucky you don't get a RL lawsuit for your felony even just at thinking that.


I am really curious to see what will happen when CCP will start nerfing Drakes and Tengus. I mean, if letting miners use crystals has such a nuclear fallout imagine when they will touch "real ships for the Real And Only Players".
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#106 - 2012-07-31 20:21:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Poor decision making is not punished by WoW-canning a mechanism to forbid it.
Good thing, then, that nothing of the kind is happening.

Good thing that it instead adds choices and imposes consequences for making bad ones — it's the EVE way.

Dave stark wrote:
and why would it be so bad for me to be able to warp in to a belt, equip crystals for whatever asteroids are left after i get home from doing whatever i was doing that day and beginning to mine rather than having to warp there, check what's left, warp back, get crystals, warp to the belt again etc.
It removes choices you have to make and consequences for those choices. If it's a belt you visit often, you will know what's in it and in what general proportions. You will also have a good idea of what will be left by the time you get to it. Use that knowledge, make an informed decision, and go for your first sweep.

When you go back to station, adjust your setup according to your new dope.

It's no different than not fitting awful multispecs on your Falcon and instead gambling that the selection you picked will be the right one for the fleet you encounter. Welcome to how the rest of the game is played.
Dave Stark
#107 - 2012-07-31 20:22:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Tippia wrote:
If you're solo, decide what you're going after next and pick up the appropriate selection of crystals


and why would it be so bad for me to be able to warp in to a belt, equip crystals for whatever asteroids are left after i get home from doing whatever i was doing that day and beginning to mine rather than having to warp there, check what's left, warp back, get crystals, warp to the belt again etc.

honestly; what is being broken by just letting us carry the crystals, like we can now?


You don't know but T20 and sub cap killing Titans fits are NOTHING compared to how absolutely game breaking is being able to bring the crystals you need. You'll be lucky you don't get a RL lawsuit for your felony even just at thinking that.


I am really curious to see what will happen when CCP will start nerfing Drakes and Tengus. I mean, if letting miners use crystals has such a nuclear fallout imagine when they will touch "real ships for the Real And Only Players".


i was informed that the drake "nerf" ain't that bad. from the rumour i heard they were changing the kinetic bonus to a rof bonus (ability to effectively use different damage types, weheeeee) and i can't remember what was happening with the resist bonus.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#108 - 2012-07-31 20:24:12 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
i was informed that the drake "nerf" ain't that bad.
The Drake buff is indeed not bad… buffs rarely are. Blink
Infinite Force
#109 - 2012-07-31 20:26:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
if one crystal mined every ore then you *might* have a point.
…and if ever single miner had to mine every single ore in the belt in one go, it would be a problem. Luckily, that's not necessary. At some point the ore has to be picked and and delivered to a storage spot. That delivery can very easily be combined with a return-delivery of crystal to fit the needs of the next session.

If you're solo, decide what you're going after next and pick up the appropriate selection of crystals from the sixty-five thousand different combinations a Hulk will be able to carry (more if they adjust the sizes). If you're in a fleet, just X up what you need for the next sweep as the hauler goes off to dump stuff.

Jake Rivers wrote:
when I mine, I want the full selection of crystals I currently enjoy. There simply is no sound reason to limit the choices of crystals you can bring.
I just told you the reason: to reward those fleets that can get the discipline of logistics down. To reward those (fleets and individuals) who can plan out their mining and just not haphazardly go for what's closest. To reward thinking.

I don't care how you want to mine. I do care about (and enjoy) the idea that thoughtlessness and poor decision-making gets punished.

Wait, first you say you have to plan out your mining, and then you don't care? Make up your mind and quit changing sides.

Poor decision making will always end up with mistakes being made - no matter the .

That said, there are no game breaking issues if you make every crystal (& spares) available at one time to a miner in their hold. There are game breaking issues if you limit it. In the end, people will decide how well CCP has listened - and CCP does appear to be listening.

It all boils down to balance.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!

Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#110 - 2012-07-31 20:26:23 UTC
Yes the theory crafters are numerous, and I am still chucking over the guy who told me it takes 30 minutes for him to tractor beam in his 110 jet cans every 90 minutes while using 3 hulks rorq boosted.

Too bad you can't sort them out from the people who actually mine.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#111 - 2012-07-31 20:27:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Good thing, then, that nothing of the kind is happening.

Good thing that it instead adds choices and imposes consequences for making bad ones — it's the EVE way.


You don't add choices by making stuff less configurable and imposing fixed holds and similar.
Let people decide if they want to bring 1, 10 or 50 crystals and give up i.e. on ore space. That's choice, mkay?
Dave Stark
#112 - 2012-07-31 20:28:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It removes choices you have to make and consequences for those choices. If it's a belt you visit often, you will know what's in it and in what general proportions. You will also have a good idea of what will be left by the time you get to it. Use that knowledge, make an informed decision, and go for your first sweep.

When you go back to station, adjust your setup according to your new dope.

It's no different than not fitting awful multispecs on your Falcon and instead gambling that the selection you picked will be the right one for the fleet you encounter. Welcome to how the rest of the game is played.


if i visit a grav site often doesn't really matter. it depends what size it is, when it was last flipped etc. often it's possible to scan down a grav site, have to log out for a while, come back and the site you scanned has been flipped, or cherry picked, etc. granted you can get a feel for what's likely to be there/not be there (for some reason nobody likes mining mercoxit). it's not an exact science though.

the difference is they're not changing a falcon to 1 mid slot, which is effectively what they're doing to a hulk by lowering it's cargo as they are. also a falcon has 7 med slots according to a quick google. that means it can fit 1 of each race specific jam, yet i can't fit 1 set of each type of crystal? i thought some one like you would have picked an analogy with less flaws, to be honest.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#113 - 2012-07-31 20:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinite Force wrote:
Wait, first you say you have to plan out your mining, and then you don't care?
Reading is hard, isn't it? No, that's not what I said. Try again.

Quote:
That said, there are no game breaking issues if you make every crystal (& spares) available at one time to a miner in their hold.
…aside from removing much-needed choices and decision making, and that limiting the ability to go after anything doesn't remove anything that anyone needs.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You don't add choices by making stuff less configurable and imposing fixed holds and similar.
Of course you do: do you choose combination AABB or ABBC or DEFG or…

…lots of choices, lots of decisions. On top of this, you have to choose how much ore you want to carry, what yield you want, how much tank you want, what utility equipment you want, and you have to way all of that against everything else. More choices. All of these are choices that didn't exist before because the choice was obvious: Hulk + tons of crystals. At every step, more choices are added. 'Tis good.

Dave stark wrote:
the difference is they're not changing a falcon to 1 mid slot, which is effectively what they're doing to a hulk by lowering it's cargo as they are. also a falcon has 7 med slots according to a quick google. that means it can fit 1 of each race specific jam, yet i can't fit 1 set of each type of crystal?
No, what they're doing to the Hulk is limiting it to 4 (with the current numbers, which will change) different ores, which is more than sufficient. Oh, and a Falcon with all four jammer types will be fairly limited in how well it can engage other targets, but if it's the only jamming ship you bring, then that's the downside you have to deal with… kind of how you have to deal with the downside of trying to do everything in a single Hulk.

Luckily, there are ways around that, but they require some forethought and planning.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#114 - 2012-07-31 20:30:53 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Good thing, then, that nothing of the kind is happening.

Good thing that it instead adds choices and imposes consequences for making bad ones — it's the EVE way.


You don't add choices by making stuff less configurable and imposing fixed holds and similar.
Let people decide if they want to bring 1, 10 or 50 crystals and give up i.e. on ore space. That's choice, mkay?


It still boils down to this, you will have more choices after the changes, even if they are choices that you don't like. Currently you get to the Hulk, and that's it, its' the best you can get. There's no reason at all to ever mine Veldspar with anything other than a Hulk.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#115 - 2012-07-31 20:31:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Wait, first you say you have to plan out your mining, and then you don't care?
Reading is hard, isn't it? No, that's not what I said. Try again.

Quote:
That said, there are no game breaking issues if you make every crystal (& spares) available at one time to a miner in their hold.
…aside from removing much-needed choices and decision making, and that limiting the ability to go after anything doesn't remove anything that anyone needs.


Keep up the good trolling!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#116 - 2012-07-31 20:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Andoria Thara wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Good thing, then, that nothing of the kind is happening.

Good thing that it instead adds choices and imposes consequences for making bad ones — it's the EVE way.


You don't add choices by making stuff less configurable and imposing fixed holds and similar.
Let people decide if they want to bring 1, 10 or 50 crystals and give up i.e. on ore space. That's choice, mkay?


It still boils down to this, you will have more choices after the changes, even if they are choices that you don't like. Currently you get to the Hulk, and that's it, its' the best you can get. There's no reason at all to ever mine Veldspar with anything other than a Hulk.


The only choice that I don't like is to have to install a bot to deal with the asinine menial tasks the new Hulk will involve.
CCP is with me on that.

So here you go, from real fitting choices we get to install a bot and defeat all your oh so needed so skillful drawbacks.


Don't delude yourselves, if this stuff goes live, miners WILL install more bots to counter it.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-07-31 20:34:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Wait, first you say you have to plan out your mining, and then you don't care?
Reading is hard, isn't it? No, that's not what I said. Try again.

Even if it was, how does not caring invalidate the need for planning?
Dave Stark
#118 - 2012-07-31 20:38:41 UTC
even with the current system we have options; cargo space or crystal flexibility.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2012-07-31 20:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

The only choice that I don't like is to have to install a bot to deal with the asinine menial tasks the new Hulk will involve.
CCP is with me on that.
So here you go, from real fitting choices we get to install a bot and defeat all your oh so needed so skillful drawbacks.
Don't delude yourselves, if this stuff goes live, miners WILL install more bots to counter it.

So long as you are aware of and willing to deal with the consequences for violating the EULA. No one else gets to wish all their tedium and planning away by screaming a bot could do it, why should miners?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#120 - 2012-07-31 20:43:31 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
even with the current system we have options; cargo space or crystal flexibility.
Good news: with the new system, you will have that and much, much more. You are even given a reason to actually actively play the game and (gasp!) interact with other people.

There is literally zero downsides. Well, aside from the standard brainless miner response of adding more bots. Lol