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Barge Fairy Tale

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2441 - 2012-07-31 18:01:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.



Limited Storage space and protection are the only reasons it has to rely on the fleet. What are you talking about?

The Hulk is more useful than the Mack IFF it has enough hauler support to keep up with its yield because it can't store anything significant locally. If else, the Mack is more useful. Atm, the Skiff is out in the cold.


The developers did not talk about *crystals* space.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up

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Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#2442 - 2012-07-31 18:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

The developers did not talk about *crystals* space.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up


oh my god, they changed their mind on something, it's the end of the world

Vaerah, stop whining and just HTFU already
Dave Stark
#2443 - 2012-07-31 19:03:14 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]
Infinite Force
#2444 - 2012-07-31 19:13:58 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

The developers did not talk about *crystals* space.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up


oh my god, they changed their mind on something, it's the end of the world

Vaerah, stop whining and just HTFU already

I love reading posts in which people can't put out a well reasoned thought - instead, they have to end in personal insults and petty name calling.

Does CCP have the ability to change the game on a whim, sure, but what does it accomplish? If they change ti too much, then people leave. If it's fun, people play. When it's no longer fun, they lose $$$'s.

Personally I can't wait to see all the whining when they start "redefining" the Cruisers, BC's, Logi's and BS hulls for combat ships. If they thought that the miners complained a bit about balance ... ... ... ...

All this talk about what constitutes a "Fleet" is annoying at best. As defined by the game parameters, a "Fleet" consists of 2 or more people "fleeted" together. Until CCP makes a change that says you can't be considered a fleet until you have X, Y and Z ships in it, those spouting off what constitutes a Fleet need to adjust their opinions to be inline with with what's reality (e.g. basic game mechanics).

Has CCP said that you can carry every crystal there is? No
Has CCP said that a hauler must deliver crystals to you? No
Has CCP said that an Orca must hold 'extra' crystals for you? No

They're redesigning the ships, and all we can really hope for is that they make sure and get the redesign of all intersecting systems, ships & modules properly balanced. If not, people will leave - and that means less revenue for CCP.

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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#2445 - 2012-07-31 19:14:21 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]

CCP decided they wanted the Hulk to not be the end all of mining ships. So they gave it drawbacks so that it must be part of a fleet op to be useful. And in that area, it is more useful than any of the other barges.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2446 - 2012-07-31 19:17:43 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

The developers did not talk about *crystals* space.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up


oh my god, they changed their mind on something, it's the end of the world

Vaerah, stop whining and just HTFU already


Your cogent and detailed reasoning totally convinced me. Not.

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Dave Stark
#2447 - 2012-07-31 19:21:00 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]

CCP decided they wanted the Hulk to not be the end all of mining ships. So they gave it drawbacks so that it must be part of a fleet op to be useful. And in that area, it is more useful than any of the other barges.


except it isn't more useful than another type of barge in a fleet. in fact you're just an imposed burden upon the other fleet members constantly having to be resupplied with crystals etc. if you're constantly dicking around with crystals instead of mining you may as well just turn up in mackinaws and keep the boosting ship in a pos which gives it extra safety for no loss in yield because the macks aren't knobing around with crystals and can haul their own ****.

in their current state hulks are far more hassle than their yield bonus is worth.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#2448 - 2012-07-31 19:24:10 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:

I love reading posts in which people can't put out a well reasoned thought - instead, they have to end in personal insults and petty name calling.


I love reading a post in which some almighty twit jumps in on page # 124 without reading the other 123 pages.

Had you read even the previous 10 pages you would see one person complaining non-stop, brushing off all suggestions that were made.

The changes are still being tweaked, there's a modification to the cargo numbers happening tomorrow as a matter of fact. Nothing is set in stone yet.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#2449 - 2012-07-31 19:25:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Your cogent and detailed reasoning totally convinced me. Not.


Would it have even mattered? No matter what someone tells you, you are going to keep repeating the same thing.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2450 - 2012-07-31 19:33:55 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]

It should be painfully clear why it functions better in a fleet environment. It mines more and with proper support cargo restrictions become irrelevant.
Dave Stark
#2451 - 2012-07-31 19:35:35 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]

It should be painfully clear why it functions better in a fleet environment. It mines more and with proper support cargo restrictions become irrelevant.


except having a 3% yield modifier/level does not mean it mines more. i love my spread sheets as much as the next person but just because the paper says it's a bigger number doesn't mean it works like that.
Pipa Porto
#2452 - 2012-07-31 19:40:37 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]


Because it's able to make effective use of it's ~20%(25% now) yield bonus over a Mackinaw/Skiff.

That's why it's better than a Mack/Skiff in a fleet.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2453 - 2012-07-31 19:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Dave stark wrote:

except having a 3% yield modifier/level does not mean it mines more. i love my spread sheets as much as the next person but just because the paper says it's a bigger number doesn't mean it works like that.

How would it not? The bonus improves the base yield above the other 2 barges by sheer fact of the matter. Additionally these appear to be meant for a more active role and as such shouldn't need the level of tank one would need for solo AFK mining meaning more room for MLU's. The hulk has no other drawbacks that are unique to it and as stated before, proper support renders cargo constraints irrelevant.
Dave Stark
#2454 - 2012-07-31 19:43:13 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]


Because it's able to make effective use of it's ~20%(25% now) yield bonus over a Mackinaw/Skiff.

That's why it's better than a Mack/Skiff in a fleet.



except with constantly ******* around with crystals; it's not able to make use of that bonus as efficiently as it needs to to make it really worth using.

sure when(if) that extra 10% yield bonus hits sisi i might agree that the extra logistics are worth it until then though, it's really not.
i guess we'll see tomorrow.
Pipa Porto
#2455 - 2012-07-31 19:44:11 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]

CCP decided they wanted the Hulk to not be the end all of mining ships. So they gave it drawbacks so that it must be part of a fleet op to be useful. And in that area, it is more useful than any of the other barges.


except it isn't more useful than another type of barge in a fleet. in fact you're just an imposed burden upon the other fleet members constantly having to be resupplied with crystals etc. if you're constantly dicking around with crystals instead of mining you may as well just turn up in mackinaws and keep the boosting ship in a pos which gives it extra safety for no loss in yield because the macks aren't knobing around with crystals and can haul their own ****.

in their current state hulks are far more hassle than their yield bonus is worth.



Sure it is. It's a 20-25% yield bonus over a Mackinaw/Skiff (even bigger when you remember that gang links stack with that). If that's not worth it to you, that's fine, don't use it.
But VV was complaining that fitting a Brick Tank gimps the TQ Hulk's yield too much, and that reduces the yield less than switching to a SISI Mackinaw will.

As for constantly switching out Crystals, I'll ask something again that you still haven't answered: How long does it take to burn out a set of crystals?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2456 - 2012-07-31 19:46:30 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.


you made a comment that it mines better than the mack, i reminded you it mined better before the changes. you still haven't made a comment on why it's better in a fleet [which, it isn't as it has no bonuses for being in a fleet]


Because it's able to make effective use of it's ~20%(25% now) yield bonus over a Mackinaw/Skiff.

That's why it's better than a Mack/Skiff in a fleet.



except with constantly ******* around with crystals; it's not able to make use of that bonus as efficiently as it needs to to make it really worth using.

sure when(if) that extra 10% yield bonus hits sisi i might agree that the extra logistics are worth it until then though, it's really not.
i guess we'll see tomorrow.

Does everyone in your fleet need a full set of crystals? Can you not dedicate certain people do different types of ore and actually make effective use of your numbers?
Dave Stark
#2457 - 2012-07-31 19:47:49 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Sure it is. It's a 20-25% yield bonus over a Mackinaw/Skiff (even bigger when you remember that gang links stack with that). If that's not worth it to you, that's fine, don't use it.
But VV was complaining that fitting a Brick Tank gimps the TQ Hulk's yield too much, and that reduces the yield less than switching to a SISI Mackinaw will.

As for constantly switching out Crystals, I'll ask something again that you still haven't answered: How long does it take to burn out a set of crystals?



it's not even bigger because gang links are % based so a 20% bonus now is still a 20% bonus after gang links.

no idea how long it takes, between auto reload and being able to carry all of the crystals i want it's never been an issue so i've never needed to know. i do remember having to buy a handful of new crystals every few days even with casual mining at about 1-3hs a day without orca bonuses (slower cycles, less wear on crystals).
Dave Stark
#2458 - 2012-07-31 19:51:22 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Does everyone in your fleet need a full set of crystals? Can you not dedicate certain people do different types of ore and actually make effective use of your numbers?


even if you don't need a full set, you can't get a half set in with the current cargo capacity. that's the thing, if we revert back to the old 500m3 cargo bay iirc we still can't fit a full set of crystals however; we can fit enough sets of crystals that there's a wide enough range of crystals for it not to be an issue.

see, we don't want to hold a billion crystals we just want to be able to hold a reasonable amount. 350m3's worth is fine for the other barges with less strips to load.

no you can't dedicate them to certain kinds of ores because ore's aren't nice and bunched up in the same locations even with the range bonus from orcas/rorqs not every ore will be in range of you from a given spot in a belt/site. hence no; you can't really dedicate certain miners to certain ores. also spodumain will pretty much always be left to the end, nobody likes it, but you're inevitably going to have every one all shooting it when it's the only thing left so you can cycle the site.
Pipa Porto
#2459 - 2012-07-31 19:56:45 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Sure it is. It's a 20-25% yield bonus over a Mackinaw/Skiff (even bigger when you remember that gang links stack with that). If that's not worth it to you, that's fine, don't use it.
But VV was complaining that fitting a Brick Tank gimps the TQ Hulk's yield too much, and that reduces the yield less than switching to a SISI Mackinaw will.

As for constantly switching out Crystals, I'll ask something again that you still haven't answered: How long does it take to burn out a set of crystals?



it's not even bigger because gang links are % based so a 20% bonus now is still a 20% bonus after gang links.

no idea how long it takes, between auto reload and being able to carry all of the crystals i want it's never been an issue so i've never needed to know. i do remember having to buy a handful of new crystals every few days even with casual mining at about 1-3hs a day without orca bonuses (slower cycles, less wear on crystals).



Say a Skiff/Mack mines 100m3/time. The Hulk mines 120m3.
Say the ganglinked mining bonus is 50% (ease of mental math here).

The Skiff/Mack will mine 150m3/time, while the Hulk will mine 180m3/time

Sure it's still the same 20% (I wasn't clear that I meant that the yield improves by a larger amt, not the %), but it's now a 30m3 difference instead of 20m3.

Yeah. The Hulk takes some thought/effort to use efficiently now. Luckily, they're introducing some new ships that don't require that.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#2460 - 2012-07-31 19:58:08 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Does everyone in your fleet need a full set of crystals? Can you not dedicate certain people do different types of ore and actually make effective use of your numbers?


even if you don't need a full set, you can't get a half set in with the current cargo capacity. that's the thing, if we revert back to the old 500m3 cargo bay iirc we still can't fit a full set of crystals however; we can fit enough sets of crystals that there's a wide enough range of crystals for it not to be an issue.


You can fit 3 Ores worth of Crystals. Do you really have situations where you have to switch ores more than 3 times while the Hauler's making a run to station?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto