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Barge Fairy Tale

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Dave Stark
#2421 - 2012-07-31 15:32:25 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Edit: CCP Goliath just replied over in the other thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1725209#post1725209


good stuff.

i have a feeling the 350m3 ore bay is a mistake. my evidence is that A) the cov still has 500m3 ore bay, and B) the hulk still has 7500m3 ore bay.

then again if both the rumoured yield increase and my prediction about the cargo being a mistake happen in tomorrow's sisi update the hulk will be where it needs to be without encroaching on any of the other exhumer's role.

however i would like them to take a peek at the retriever vs mackinaw. the difference in ore bay is quite insubstantial. when going from the procurer to the skiff, or covetor to the hulk they feel like sizable upgrades for their intended role; the mack doesn't since it has less than 1 cycle of ore's space of space over the retriever.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2422 - 2012-07-31 15:45:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
As long as the hulk can tank nullsec BS belt rats still, dont think many are going to be that bothered by changes to hulks other than HS miners at risk from gankers (read afk doing xyz irl while hulk cycles strips) on the surface of it they could do with tinkering again with the cargo hold in the case of increasing it slightly so that it can fit 3 of each diff crystal type in there, some people go out mining with crystals for all ore types depending on what/where their mining, increasing the specialty ore hold to 8k wouldn't be a bad idea either, cause looking at the current changes they've taken the current hulk hold of 8k m3 and split it into 500 m3 cargo bay and 7.5k m3 ore hold.
as for hs vs LS/Null mining you CAN NOT afford to go afk in ls or null, if you do, well expect to wake up in your medi clone frequently :)


For what I have seen, from the most dangerous to the least:

- You absolutely cannot go AFK in WHs, expecially if you didn't "seal" them first.

- You can afk for 2-3 minutes in low sec "out of the way" systems if you are in voice comm fleet, just turn up the volume to hear possible warnings, 3-5 minutes in "home system" when it's actively sealed by corp mates. Better if inbound WHs were sealed or are camped.

- You can afk for 3-4 minutes in NPC nullsec if you are in voice comm fleet, just turn up the volume to hear possible warnings. Bubbles at gate give a little of room. Better if inbound WHs are sealed / camped, this happens more often as your own corp mates will go inside to find PvP or a short route back to low sec.

- You can afk for 5-10 minutes in important sov nullsec systems if you are in voice comm fleet, it's worse for out of the way systems (unchecked inbound WHs, more unchecked if you are in a renter corp) and in "conduits" between multiple clusters where you may get get neuts roams.

- You can afk for about 20 minutes in hi sec out of the way systems or even in "hot" systems (ice mining) during low population times of the day / outside week ends and outside of Hulkageddon (which now is permanent...). If you are in hot systems or week ends then 10 minutes tops would be better. If there are reds (identified gankers) then you can't go afk at all. If the reds are organized gankers you are better to dock / log off as even being ATK they are smart enough to catch you at first mistake, they can catch you at gates (use tanked Orca to get out with ships), they WILL kill tanked exhumers as they have no "I must make a profit on all ganks" issues.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2423 - 2012-07-31 15:48:06 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again; if you want to go afk do other things, fly a mackinaw not a hulk.


Or a cloaky ship which you can park in someone else's industrial system 24/7.

Or a Retribution which you just use for structure bashing.

If you want people to be tied to the computer while their account is logged in, go play some other game.


exactly there's a ship to let you go afk. the mackinaw is that ship not the hulk. deal with it.


Except the Pro Game Balancers in this thread say Mack is not allowed to be an AFK ship...

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Dave Stark
#2424 - 2012-07-31 15:49:36 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again; if you want to go afk do other things, fly a mackinaw not a hulk.


Or a cloaky ship which you can park in someone else's industrial system 24/7.

Or a Retribution which you just use for structure bashing.

If you want people to be tied to the computer while their account is logged in, go play some other game.


exactly there's a ship to let you go afk. the mackinaw is that ship not the hulk. deal with it.


Except the Pro Game Balancers in this thread say Mack is not allowed to be an AFK ship...

then.... what use is it?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2425 - 2012-07-31 15:52:47 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

teircide isn't in effect at all, using the proper ship for the job would be using the hulk, however if the hulk isn't going to produce the goods because of bad design and the answer is "use the mack" which has more ehp, cargo, and yield due to less time wasted on bad design then....

we're simply handing the mackinaw the crown that the hulk currently wears and rebalancing hasn't balanced anything it's just crowned a new king of everything.


The Hulk will work fine, like someone else mentioned, store your crystals in the orca or a hauling ship. You don't need 1000m3 or even 500m3 worth of space to hold crystals.

Hell even 150m3 is perfectly fine for a mining op, pick which type of rock you are going to mine, equip your 3 crystals, put 3 backup crystals in your cargo, and start mining.

Edit: CCP Goliath just replied over in the other thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1725209#post1725209


Are you the new Ruby Porto alt?
Only him could justify a larger crystal bay in ships intended to have worse efficiency and less turrets while having it smaller in the top of the line efficiency ship. This not even including the factor that the new ore + hold is now less than the old all purpose hold.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2426 - 2012-07-31 16:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Dave stark wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again; if you want to go afk do other things, fly a mackinaw not a hulk.


Or a cloaky ship which you can park in someone else's industrial system 24/7.

Or a Retribution which you just use for structure bashing.

If you want people to be tied to the computer while their account is logged in, go play some other game.


exactly there's a ship to let you go afk. the mackinaw is that ship not the hulk. deal with it.


Except the Pro Game Balancers in this thread say Mack is not allowed to be an AFK ship...

then.... what use is it?


Don't ask me Sad

Imo Hulk => glass cannon, min maxed if in fleet, should be given a mechanic to let it perform the best, should have the least micromanagement. If it has clunky micromanagement, in order to still be the best with margin enough, then it has to be overbuffed and this is why I'd rather have a little micromanagement Hulk, to keep it "sane".
A possible drawback to its superiority could be to give it a well sized crystals hold but it burns crystals faster than the other ships. So you have to factor in fast speed vs higher operation cost and not some dumb time sink that kills efficiency and makes Macks competitive for way less effort and dangers.

Mack => Self sufficient, resilient enough to not get popped by less than 3 catalysts or 1 tornado volley, so not really AFK (can't deal with organized gank corps) but still good and able to get out if not scrambled.

Skiff => Self sufficient, ungankable for a profit, period.

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Pipa Porto
#2427 - 2012-07-31 17:10:39 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Forgot you are the god of game balance (in this and other threads) and all MUST play your way or ====> Thatway. Sandbox as long as you decide the walls placement, the sand to use and what tools to hand out, eh?

No dear all you get is people switching to Macks (and then you'll cry again because Macks are harder to kill) except botters.

Botters can put a bot performing stupidly repetitive, frequent menial tasks, the others will indeed switch to something else.

And the next day you'll be here breaking everybody's balls because now all use hard and unprofitable ships to kill AND still get a competitive yield.



Also if I was cheap like you, about the 60 pages or so of pure savage crying about ships being buffed, I'd remind you that the lead developer said the official CCP position on this and he IS entitled to do so.

Why don't you take your own advice if you don't like it and go play =========> Thatway some other game?


You don't take your own advice? Well, so won't I.


Whenever to walls of the sandbox are changing, public commentary is a good thing.

The Hulk is designed to shine when you have an adequate fleet to support it. If you don't have an adequate fleet to support it, of course it's not going to shine. A 20% yield bonus is a pretty strong incentive to form that fleet.

As I've said many times, the new Mack's tank is silly. Because of it, the Skiff is entirely useless.

And Soundwave has been pretty resoundingly mocked by bringing back an idea that the price of a Hull should have something to do with its surviviability (an idea proven to be silly by Supers) and hasn't been back.


You keep coming at this assuming that the goal is to have everyone in Hulks. That's you not understanding tiericide. The Hulk's yield is the reward for doing the groundwork needed to make it efficient.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2428 - 2012-07-31 17:11:04 UTC
Another issue that I hope CCP addresses:

Build Cost of the Exhumers!

Used to be a fairly simple progression, at current prices, Skiff, Mack, Hulk, 120M, 180M, 300M.
Small Bigger, Biggest. Made sense.

As all 3 Exhumers have had major revisions done. They are now supposed to be roughly 'equivalent', and ALL have received a significant upgrade, build costs should be addressed and updated as well.

Doesn't make sense for the Mackinaw and the Skiff to cost a fraction of a Hulk anymore.

It should be pretty obvious that the new build cost of the Hulk should be slightly increased, and the other Exhumer's costs should be roughly equivalent to that.

I figure, somewhere between 350 and 400M at current mineral/goo prices would be appropriate for all three Exhumers.

The Skiff will never be ganked in the first place, but it simply doesn't really make much sense for the Mackinaw to be 'the equal' of the Hulk, yet cost far, far less.

Hoping Soundwave doesn't over look that detail in the balancing process either.
Pipa Porto
#2429 - 2012-07-31 17:12:16 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Why more than 1? It's meant to run with hauler support. Either have it in the belt with you or accept the risk that comes with jet cans.


More than 1 because the Hulk has 3 strip miners and I don't want to be continually dragging one cycle of ore to the Orca's corp hangar every minute. That's far too much attention to a task which takes my mouse away from the "warp the hell out of here" button Lol. 6000m3 is a decent size. People with ultimately maxed out yield can learn to stagger their strip miners. Being required to stagger strip miners because the ore bay isn't even big enough for min yield Strip Miner Is cycling simultaneously would be a pain in the neck.

Of course, I would very happily trade a 5% yield bonus for a 5% cycle time bonus. Change the Mining Foreman Mindlink from a 15% yield to a 5% cycle time on all mining lasers and I'd be a happy miner.


It's got like a 7500m3 ore bay. It stores just a little more than 1 cycle of all 3, non-staggered Strips.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#2430 - 2012-07-31 17:16:03 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Andoria Thara wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

teircide isn't in effect at all, using the proper ship for the job would be using the hulk, however if the hulk isn't going to produce the goods because of bad design and the answer is "use the mack" which has more ehp, cargo, and yield due to less time wasted on bad design then....

we're simply handing the mackinaw the crown that the hulk currently wears and rebalancing hasn't balanced anything it's just crowned a new king of everything.


The Hulk will work fine, like someone else mentioned, store your crystals in the orca or a hauling ship. You don't need 1000m3 or even 500m3 worth of space to hold crystals.

Hell even 150m3 is perfectly fine for a mining op, pick which type of rock you are going to mine, equip your 3 crystals, put 3 backup crystals in your cargo, and start mining.

Edit: CCP Goliath just replied over in the other thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1725209#post1725209


Are you the new Ruby Porto alt?
Only him could justify a larger crystal bay in ships intended to have worse efficiency and less turrets while having it smaller in the top of the line efficiency ship. This not even including the factor that the new ore + hold is now less than the old all purpose hold.


The Hulk is designed to be efficient only when properly supported by haulers (who can drop crystals off for you).

The Mack and Skiff are designed to be more self sufficient. Situational Efficiency is the watchword of tiericide.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2431 - 2012-07-31 17:29:58 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

Whenever to walls of the sandbox are changing, public commentary is a good thing.

The Hulk is designed to shine when you have an adequate fleet to support it. If you don't have an adequate fleet to support it, of course it's not going to shine. A 20% yield bonus is a pretty strong incentive to form that fleet.


Hulk yield is only good if its potential turns into act.
If it's cumbersome to do that, it's potential drops and given it got all the drawbacks then Macks (which lacks of the drawbacks) immediately become competitive with them.
If it's cumbersome to play, people will just bot them much, much more than today. Or use Macks.


Pipa Porto wrote:

And Soundwave has been pretty resoundingly mocked by bringing back an idea that the price of a Hull should have something to do with its surviviability (an idea proven to be silly by Supers) and hasn't been back.


Soundwave has much more and better to do than trying to talk with people with a petrified idea of how everybody must play the game and will just tell him crap whatever he says, whatever he does.


Pipa Porto wrote:

You keep coming at this assuming that the goal is to have everyone in Hulks. That's you not understanding tiericide. The Hulk's yield is the reward for doing the groundwork needed to make it efficient.


Nope. The goal is not to have everyone in Macks. It seems similar but it's very different.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2432 - 2012-07-31 17:33:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Hulk is designed to be efficient only when properly supported by haulers (who can drop crystals off for you).

The Mack and Skiff are designed to be more self sufficient. Situational Efficiency is the watchword of tiericide.


I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.

Try making Hulk efficient when mission mining, let's see how fast that Orca will get to give him the crystals at the 3rd pocket, 80km off the warp in point.

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Dave Stark
#2433 - 2012-07-31 17:34:47 UTC
i think soundwave has been quoted out of context a lot. a hulk's high slots are probably worth more than a t2 catalyst, i think that's the issue, pretty much has nothing to do with the hull cost of a hulk.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#2434 - 2012-07-31 17:35:47 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Hulk is designed to be efficient only when properly supported by haulers (who can drop crystals off for you).

The Mack and Skiff are designed to be more self sufficient. Situational Efficiency is the watchword of tiericide.


I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.

Try making Hulk efficient when mission mining, let's see how fast that Orca will get to give him the crystals at the 3rd pocket, 80km off the warp in point.

Your missing the point.


The Hulk is redesigned for basic fleet mining ops. Thats it. Not solo mining. Not deadspace pocket mining. Fleet ops.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2435 - 2012-07-31 17:38:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Corina Jarr wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Hulk is designed to be efficient only when properly supported by haulers (who can drop crystals off for you).

The Mack and Skiff are designed to be more self sufficient. Situational Efficiency is the watchword of tiericide.


I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.

Try making Hulk efficient when mission mining, let's see how fast that Orca will get to give him the crystals at the 3rd pocket, 80km off the warp in point.

Your missing the point.


The Hulk is redesigned for basic fleet mining ops. Thats it. Not solo mining. Not deadspace pocket mining. Fleet ops.


Pocket mining IS a fleet ops. It's not a 1000000000 blobfare ops but Orca + 3 Hulks are a fleet already and there's several plentiful missions that turn to be quite useful to avoid pro "PvPers".

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Dave Stark
#2436 - 2012-07-31 17:38:47 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Hulk is designed to be efficient only when properly supported by haulers (who can drop crystals off for you).

The Mack and Skiff are designed to be more self sufficient. Situational Efficiency is the watchword of tiericide.


I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.

Try making Hulk efficient when mission mining, let's see how fast that Orca will get to give him the crystals at the 3rd pocket, 80km off the warp in point.

Your missing the point.


The Hulk is redesigned for basic fleet mining ops. Thats it. Not solo mining. Not deadspace pocket mining. Fleet ops.


it hasn't been redesigned at all. all they've done is created a crystal issue, lowered the resist bonus and gone "there we go". it has been given no bonuses for being in a fleet what so ever.
Pipa Porto
#2437 - 2012-07-31 17:40:06 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.



Limited Storage space and protection are the only reasons it has to rely on the fleet. What are you talking about?

The Hulk is more useful than the Mack IFF it has enough hauler support to keep up with its yield because it can't store anything significant locally. If else, the Mack is more useful. Atm, the Skiff is out in the cold.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#2438 - 2012-07-31 17:40:46 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Hulk is designed to be efficient only when properly supported by haulers (who can drop crystals off for you).

The Mack and Skiff are designed to be more self sufficient. Situational Efficiency is the watchword of tiericide.


I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.

Try making Hulk efficient when mission mining, let's see how fast that Orca will get to give him the crystals at the 3rd pocket, 80km off the warp in point.

Your missing the point.


The Hulk is redesigned for basic fleet mining ops. Thats it. Not solo mining. Not deadspace pocket mining. Fleet ops.


it hasn't been redesigned at all. all they've done is created a crystal issue, lowered the resist bonus and gone "there we go". it has been given no bonuses for being in a fleet what so ever.


~20% yield over the Mackinaw isn't a bonus now?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Dave Stark
#2439 - 2012-07-31 17:41:25 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
The Hulk is designed to be efficient only when properly supported by haulers (who can drop crystals off for you).

The Mack and Skiff are designed to be more self sufficient. Situational Efficiency is the watchword of tiericide.


I totally disagree. The Hulk cannot be efficient if its fleet depenency is hardwired into 3rd party providing such efficiency.
Hulk should and has to rely on fleet because of limited cargo hold and thin hull already.

Try making Hulk efficient when mission mining, let's see how fast that Orca will get to give him the crystals at the 3rd pocket, 80km off the warp in point.

Your missing the point.


The Hulk is redesigned for basic fleet mining ops. Thats it. Not solo mining. Not deadspace pocket mining. Fleet ops.


it hasn't been redesigned at all. all they've done is created a crystal issue, lowered the resist bonus and gone "there we go". it has been given no bonuses for being in a fleet what so ever.


~20% yield over the Mackinaw isn't a bonus now?


in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.
Pipa Porto
#2440 - 2012-07-31 17:49:53 UTC
Dave stark wrote:

in comparison to a 50+% yield bonus from simply having an extra strip miner?
that's the bonus it previously had.



Seriously? Come now.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto