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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#41 - 2012-07-31 17:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
as plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.


The original same cargo size is different from that blog as it is. And they have **** mechanics for multi corp fleets beyond just cargo hauling. Which is still a ammo problem. Has already been answered anyway by whatever changes will take effect tomorrow on sisi. If the base cargo increases from the lost 150 in the split. Or crystals get smaller. or if nothing pertaining to charge amount changes.
Dave stark
#42 - 2012-07-31 17:30:41 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Hulks aren't meant for soloing. Use a mackinaw, which requires less crystals.

In a hulk, you can just refit off the orca.

Its not about what we think CCP ment with what they are giving is, its what exactly CCP thought they were accomplishing.
More industrial usage, more orca support, they forgot they made crystals so large, whatever it might be.


http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.


CCP has plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.


do the maths, the ore bay isn't identical to it's current cargo hold. that statement is as trust worthy as a convicted criminal asking where you keep your silverware.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#43 - 2012-07-31 17:31:43 UTC
Carola Kessler wrote:
The Yield even if tanked base yield in Comparision Mackinaw 310% against Hulk 390%.


So the Mackinaw gets just under 80% the yield of a Hulk. Those people who can properly defend their mining ops will enjoy a 20% higher yield per miner than those who think the best way to mine is to sit in an unsecured belt in highsec.

Welcome to balance. You want top yield, you give up tank and need a hauler.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#44 - 2012-07-31 17:34:44 UTC
Chrystals are being halfed is size per people in the know. Unless they make a diffrent change to fix the issue.

So soon most of what you pilots are talking about will be a mute point.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#45 - 2012-07-31 17:35:01 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Yet they have **** mechanics for multi corp fleets beyond just cargo hauling. Which is still a ammo problem.

I don't really see the problem. You can drop ore directly into the orca's corp hangar, and if you spend a set of crystals the orca can jettison a set to replace it.

The orca corp hangar problem is a completely separate issue from what's being talked about here. If it's not functioning properly as a support vessel, report that as a problem with the orca, NOT the hulk.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#46 - 2012-07-31 17:35:13 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
CCP has plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.

CCP WHAY U NURF HULK??!!

Hand some EVE "players" salvation and a major buff on a silver platter and they'll still be whining up a storm over minor details of inconvenience.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Dave stark
#47 - 2012-07-31 17:37:00 UTC
Salpun wrote:
Chrystals are being halfed is size per people in the know. Unless they make a diffrent change to fix the issue.

So soon most of what you pilots are talking about will be a mute point.


no it won't because when they halved the crystal size they also reduced the cargo bay, that's what CAUSED the issue.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#48 - 2012-07-31 17:37:08 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Hulks aren't meant for soloing. Use a mackinaw, which requires less crystals.

In a hulk, you can just refit off the orca.

Its not about what we think CCP ment with what they are giving is, its what exactly CCP thought they were accomplishing.
More industrial usage, more orca support, they forgot they made crystals so large, whatever it might be.


http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.


CCP has plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.


do the maths, the ore bay isn't identical to it's current cargo hold. that statement is as trust worthy as a convicted criminal asking where you keep your silverware.

You completely missed the point of that post. The cargo hold size is completely irrelevant to the conversation that was being had.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Dave stark
#49 - 2012-07-31 17:39:48 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:

You completely missed the point of that post. The cargo hold size is completely irrelevant to the conversation that was being had.


the point of the conversation was irrelevant, i was commenting on the credibility of the source.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#50 - 2012-07-31 17:40:49 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
CCP has plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.

CCP WHAY U NURF HULK??!!

Hand some EVE "players" salvation and a major buff on a silver platter and they'll still be whining up a storm over minor details of inconvenience.


It serves to illustrate the utter lack of imagination that these carebears have. CCP is handing them the ability to choose between optimal yield, optimal tank, or the ability to solo mine with a decent tank and solid yield. They're complaining because the highest-yield miner in the game isn't going to be built as a tanky solo miner.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#51 - 2012-07-31 17:42:18 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Yet they have **** mechanics for multi corp fleets beyond just cargo hauling. Which is still a ammo problem.

I don't really see the problem. You can drop ore directly into the orca's corp hangar, and if you spend a set of crystals the orca can jettison a set to replace it.

The orca corp hangar problem is a completely separate issue from what's being talked about here. If it's not functioning properly as a support vessel, report that as a problem with the orca, NOT the hulk.


Yes, it is a orca problem. Yet bandaid it now via hulk cargo numbers. Or wait another X amount of expansions for perhaps a better fleet permissions UI.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#52 - 2012-07-31 17:43:14 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
This is just plain silly.

You can only mine 3 rocks at a time. You have space for 3 spare crystals and 3 other crystals if the rocks you mine run out. Changing out and replacing missing crystals take how long? now consider how long 9 crystal will last you. Solo or in a Fleet this should never be a problem. Seriously people should think about things, before they whine


o7


Today it's not a crime nor an exploit to sacrifice cargo hold to bring more crystals if one wants to.
Today if you want to escape Hulkageddon and do say a large grav site (i.e. very often) you get more than 3 minerals.
Today if you want to mine a L3-L4 mission you have to go 50-80km inside it, it's long to make that Orca get to you with new crystals over there with its awesome turtle speed.



I agree on some points with you. But still you can only use 3 crystals at a time. Those crystal (if you're not dense) will last longer that it takes to fill several orca's let alone an Exhumer. It's called adaption. I very rarely take Crystals with me. I have fleet support. I have multi corp fleet support, and have NEVER thats right NEVER had a problem with no crystals in my cargo hold.


o7


Well it comes down from the definition of fleet. I have been in multi-Orca / Rorqual multi corp fleets and those are Fleets with capital "F".
But a 4 Hulk + Orca fleet is still a fleet too. What if the Orca has to travel lots of distance (pocket mining) just to bring crystals over?
If the bonused Orca tractor beam could "throw" crystals at Hulks from 50km+ then it'd be no problem, but it can't.

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Dave stark
#53 - 2012-07-31 17:43:24 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
They're complaining because the highest-yield miner in the game isn't going to be built as a tanky solo miner.


no we aren't.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#54 - 2012-07-31 17:53:26 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
CCP has plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.

CCP WHAY U NURF HULK??!!

Hand some EVE "players" salvation and a major buff on a silver platter and they'll still be whining up a storm over minor details of inconvenience.


It serves to illustrate the utter lack of imagination that these carebears have. CCP is handing them the ability to choose between optimal yield, optimal tank, or the ability to solo mine with a decent tank and solid yield. They're complaining because the highest-yield miner in the game isn't going to be built as a tanky solo miner.


The points, you are missing all of them.

The highest yield miner in game has to have a competitive yield advantage (duh!).
The more you make achieving that yield cumbersome, the more they have to overbuff that ship to make it appetible more than the zero drawbacks alternatives.

Hulk should have the least "stops" and micromanagement so its performance is fully used. The other ships should have that factors to slow them down instead.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#55 - 2012-07-31 17:58:00 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Yet they have **** mechanics for multi corp fleets beyond just cargo hauling. Which is still a ammo problem.

I don't really see the problem. You can drop ore directly into the orca's corp hangar, and if you spend a set of crystals the orca can jettison a set to replace it.

The orca corp hangar problem is a completely separate issue from what's being talked about here. If it's not functioning properly as a support vessel, report that as a problem with the orca, NOT the hulk.


The Orca works well enough.

What we have today, however, is that we have many choices of fleet "mining doctrines" (like PvP fleets have), that after the patch will be squashed.

IE today it's a viable choice to keep Orcas away from miners, it counters the typical "hey let's go smartbomb the bunch" effect.
Unless Orcas will be added the ability to "throw" (reverse tractor) crystals to Hulks, this tactic is over.

Today it's a viable choice to drop 3-4 Hulks in a deadspace pocket and the Orca tractors cans from the maximum distance (roids tend to be 50-80Km from warp in).

After the patch you can't, as the Orca would have to travel and carry the crystals all over the pocket.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#56 - 2012-07-31 18:02:04 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The highest yield miner in game has to have a competitive yield advantage (duh!).
The more you make achieving that yield cumbersome, the more they have to overbuff that ship to make it appetible more than the zero drawbacks alternatives.

Hulk should have the least "stops" and micromanagement so its performance is fully used. The other ships should have that factors to slow them down instead.


I still don't understand where you're claiming the stops are. The hulk mines, dumps ore into the orca (or jetcans it to be tractored) and then keeps mining. If it burns through all its spare sets of crystals, a hauler or the orca brings it more. What exactly is stopping the hulk from achieving maximum yield?

UNLESS...you want it to behave as a solo miner, which (yet again) CCP has gone on record as being against the design principle of the Hulk.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#57 - 2012-07-31 18:04:36 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Yet they have **** mechanics for multi corp fleets beyond just cargo hauling. Which is still a ammo problem.

I don't really see the problem. You can drop ore directly into the orca's corp hangar, and if you spend a set of crystals the orca can jettison a set to replace it.

The orca corp hangar problem is a completely separate issue from what's being talked about here. If it's not functioning properly as a support vessel, report that as a problem with the orca, NOT the hulk.


The Orca works well enough.

What we have today, however, is that we have many choices of fleet "mining doctrines" (like PvP fleets have), that after the patch will be squashed.

IE today it's a viable choice to keep Orcas away from miners, it counters the typical "hey let's go smartbomb the bunch" effect.
Unless Orcas will be added the ability to "throw" (reverse tractor) crystals to Hulks, this tactic is over.

Today it's a viable choice to drop 3-4 Hulks in a deadspace pocket and the Orca tractors cans from the maximum distance (roids tend to be 50-80Km from warp in).

After the patch you can't, as the Orca would have to travel and carry the crystals all over the pocket.



Warp to celestial(after aligning),warp to Orca, (align to celstial on contact), warp to celestial, warp to rock. what 2 minutes? in every 2-3 hours?



o7
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#58 - 2012-07-31 18:04:54 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
IE today it's a viable choice to keep Orcas away from miners, it counters the typical "hey let's go smartbomb the bunch" effect.
Unless Orcas will be added the ability to "throw" (reverse tractor) crystals to Hulks, this tactic is over.


Or a guy in a frigate could shuttle over a crystal set.

Again: the problem here is a lack of imagination.

For that matter, just how many sets of cyrstals are you going to burn through in that deadspace pocket, that you can't load up before the op and not need to resupply?

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#59 - 2012-07-31 18:07:22 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
They're complaining because the highest-yield miner in the game isn't going to be built as a tanky solo miner.


no we aren't.


The complaints I've seen about the hulks:

They can't carry enough crystals (a non-issue with proper fleet support)
They can't carry enough ore (a non-issue with proper fleet support)
They don't have enough tank (a non-issue with proper defense)

If all those people got what they wanted, you'd have a skiff's tank, a mack's ore hold, and a hulk's yield. And they'd think it was balanced.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#60 - 2012-07-31 18:08:40 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:


Warp to celestial(after aligning),warp to Orca, (align to celstial on contact), warp to celestial, warp to rock. what 2 minutes? in every 2-3 hours?



o7


Works great in deadspace pockets.

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