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ASB is BULL.

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Pipa Porto
#181 - 2012-07-31 06:40:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
What counter do buffer modules have besides "shoot it for a while"?


I think we've been through this already. A side by side comparison of shield extenders to ASBs without taking into account other factors is an incomplete perspective on ASBs because the amount of shield HP they can give can be drastically increased.

- Ships with a boost amount bonus (+37.5%)
- Shield boost amplifiers (+30%)
- Successfuly reloading during a fight (I know you believe this cannot happen under any circumstances but it does happen)
- Overloading the ASB (+10% boost amount, -15% cycle time)
- Blue Pill booster (+20% to +30%)

This whole discussion is incredibly stupid. Everyone in the alliance tournament chose ASBs over pure shield buffer fits even when they were restricted to 1x ASB. And here are people arguing that double ASBs are merely an equal alternative to shield extenders.


Alpha: BLAP. More DPS than it can handle: BLAP. The ASBs are better than LSEs in some situations and worse in others. As soon as you have more than the ~5000 DPS (9-10 BCs or 10-11 AFs [Enyo FTW]) on the field that any reasonably possible ASB tank can stand up to, the ASB ship will go down faster than skeet at a trap range. That 5000 DPS number is right out of my ... and I think a more realistic number is lower, but 10 guys is not a big engagement.

The AT is a special situation where the DPS on field is pretty severely limited as is the length of the engagement. The rest of EVE doesn't have those limits.

That engagement length is pretty key. A Dual ASB tank can tank you all day long, but he's going to have a pretty severely gimped fit. That means you can (if you're not terrible) hold him all day long and poke at him to make him use Cap charges. He'll run out and die. If he has friends, well then he's what we call "bait."

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2012-07-31 06:41:55 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Alpha: BLAP. More DPS than it can handle: BLAP. The ASBs are better than LSEs in some situations and worse in others. As soon as you have more than the ~5000 DPS (9-10 BCs) on the field that any reasonable ASB tank can stand up to, the ASB ship will go down faster than skeet at a trap range.


See, this is why ASBs are broken. Blob more is not an acceptable counter. Have a nice day.
Pipa Porto
#183 - 2012-07-31 06:42:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


Alpha: BLAP. More DPS than it can handle: BLAP. The ASBs are better than LSEs in some situations and worse in others. As soon as you have more than the ~5000 DPS (9-10 BCs) on the field that any reasonable ASB tank can stand up to, the ASB ship will go down faster than skeet at a trap range.


See, this is why ASBs are broken. Blob more is not an acceptable counter. Have a nice day.


Then kite out his charges. You realize, you do have the option to read the whole post before crying.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#184 - 2012-07-31 07:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
MASB only hold 10 charges. Dual MASB frigate fits are gimped on outgoing DPS as each booster requires 50 CPU to fit - that can eat into possible damage mods. MASB are fine.

LASB can hold 13 charges. I've only heard of these being dual fitted on Cyclones or Feroxes. You really need the shield bonuses of the ships to make them shine. It doesn't take alot of firepower to run these into the ground. More prevalent is the oversized X-LASB fits. A simple, elegant solution would be to crank up it's fitting requirement.

The 'max' numbers being thrown out are a hoot. I live in low sec. If someone is flying around in cyclones with a Tengu alt and crystal implants word is going to get around. He either won't get engaged OR will get blobbed. If you want to bring 4 billion in isk to the party I have no qualms about doing the same.
Cpt Branko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2012-07-31 08:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Branko
I had my first fight vs an ASB ship since I came back yesterday - while solo roaming in my Tempest I ran into a dual-ASB Myrmidon (which behaved like he had backup, but its nevertheless always worth trying). Sadly, he was saved by a Dominix just as he was getting in low armour and I ran away, not wanting to risk staying.

Impressions - dual ASB survived longer then buffer, not to mention triple rep (both would be dead before backup arrived), would, and is reasonably fast unlike armour fits.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#186 - 2012-07-31 14:24:56 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
MASB only hold 10 charges. Dual MASB frigate fits are gimped on outgoing DPS as each booster requires 50 CPU to fit - that can eat into possible damage mods. MASB are fine.

LASB can hold 13 charges. I've only heard of these being dual fitted on Cyclones or Feroxes. You really need the shield bonuses of the ships to make them shine. It doesn't take alot of firepower to run these into the ground. More prevalent is the oversized X-LASB fits. A simple, elegant solution would be to crank up it's fitting requirement.

The 'max' numbers being thrown out are a hoot. I live in low sec. If someone is flying around in cyclones with a Tengu alt and crystal implants word is going to get around. He either won't get engaged OR will get blobbed. If you want to bring 4 billion in isk to the party I have no qualms about doing the same.


I get engaged all the time.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#187 - 2012-07-31 15:27:37 UTC

Quote:
Then kite out his charges


...What? He's under no obligation to burn all his charges. If you're capable of kiting him such that you can burn down his charges and then kill him, you'd have won whether he's using a buffer or active fit.
Doddy
Excidium.
#188 - 2012-07-31 15:50:52 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
So, I just had a test fight on SiSi.

It was a 1 v 1 fight versus a RATTLESNAKE in a BHAALGORN and I LOST.

My Bhaalgorn had 250 K EHP, 850 gun + 200 drone DPS, dual web, dual NOS, one neutralizer, one tracking computer with tracking scripts, one target painter, one warp scrambler and 4 T2 pulses with COnflagration L crystals.

The other guy had a generic mission carebear **** fit like all rattlesnakes do, the typical super passive+crap boring drones and pathetic 150 dps cruise missiles setup.

I got the guy into 5% shield FIVE ******* TIMES IN A ROW and he always bounced right up back to 70-100% in a few short seconds.

If this was a TQ fight I would have been ******* pissed for losing a Bhaalgorn to a **** fit mission rattlesnake with two bullshit overpowered mods on it.

Any word on when the F you intend to NERF the ASB or at least limit the son of a ***** to ONE per ship, CCP?

The other day I had this guy in a MERLIN tank SIX GUYS in CA 1 in PVH for 8 consecutive minutes using ASB.

No seriously, when are you nerfing that ****?

If you're going to leave it like that, at least make armor repairers or armor plates repair armor passively when inactive and work like an ASB when activated.

Seriously CCP, ASB is retardedly OP right now.


Well if you choose to passive tank a solo ship you are always having the chance to lose bro. They guy could have forever kited you in an arazu, doesn't mean arazu is op.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#189 - 2012-07-31 17:19:26 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
Zoe Athame wrote:
Maybe I havn't been flying in the right corps, but how often do you 1v1 a bhaalgorn vs a rattlesnake?


On the test server, every 20 minutes or so.

And unless Rattle has a bullshit OP mod on it or 2, Bhaalgorn always wins.



So you used to be able to get a guaranteed kill and now you can't anymore?

This is exactly why the ASB was introduced.
Pipa Porto
#190 - 2012-07-31 17:43:53 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Quote:
Then kite out his charges


...What? He's under no obligation to burn all his charges. If you're capable of kiting him such that you can burn down his charges and then kill him, you'd have won whether he's using a buffer or active fit.



Sure he is. Keep doing damage while he's unable to hurt you (he's sacrificed an awful lot for his 2 X-L ASBs), and he will eventually run out of charges.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#191 - 2012-07-31 17:51:14 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Quote:
Then kite out his charges


...What? He's under no obligation to burn all his charges. If you're capable of kiting him such that you can burn down his charges and then kill him, you'd have won whether he's using a buffer or active fit.



Sure he is. Keep doing damage while he's unable to hurt you (he's sacrificed an awful lot for his 2 X-L ASBs), and he will eventually run out of charges.


People keep saying that you "sacrifice a lot to fit dual ASB", but what do you REALLY sacrifice over a traditional XL II + Cap Booster II setup?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Bill Serkoff2
Tachyon Technology
#192 - 2012-07-31 17:56:17 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Quote:
Then kite out his charges


...What? He's under no obligation to burn all his charges. If you're capable of kiting him such that you can burn down his charges and then kill him, you'd have won whether he's using a buffer or active fit.



Sure he is. Keep doing damage while he's unable to hurt you (he's sacrificed an awful lot for his 2 X-L ASBs), and he will eventually run out of charges.


People keep saying that you "sacrifice a lot to fit dual ASB", but what do you REALLY sacrifice over a traditional XL II + Cap Booster II setup?

-Liang

I tried fitting it on a Drake, it was pretty tight. Needed quite a few fitting mods.
Then again, a battleship fit would be considerably more lenient.

"The Cyclone and the Drake are two ships which will basically never be good for shield tanking, primarily because they have almost no lowslots in addition to shield tanking bonuses. " -Iam Widdershins
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#193 - 2012-07-31 17:59:35 UTC
Bill Serkoff2 wrote:

I tried fitting it on a Drake, it was pretty tight. Needed quite a few fitting mods.
Then again, a battleship fit would be considerably more lenient.


This seems like an exceptionally useless thing to experiment on because the Drake has never had a reasonable active tank. It just doesn't have the grid to fit one.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#194 - 2012-07-31 18:21:29 UTC
Quote:
Sure he is. Keep doing damage while he's unable to hurt you (he's sacrificed an awful lot for his 2 X-L ASBs), and he will eventually run out of charges.


As others have pointed out, there is no real downside compared to SB + cap booster, and I wasn't specifically talking about double ASB.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#195 - 2012-07-31 18:51:28 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


People keep saying that you "sacrifice a lot to fit dual ASB", but what do you REALLY sacrifice over a traditional XL II + Cap Booster II setup?

-Liang


With my limited time playing around with them, it seems you give up some DPS due to CPU restrictions. And its very much worth it for the ability to have a 'capless' tank and 'burst' tank ability. I also don't get it when people talk about waiting for the reload. While the module description seems to state otherwise. You can turn the booster on and off as needed. So if you are not doing any dps by kiting. He is not going to boost, and not have to reload.

I think it's fine however. I could see one of two things happening. One would be cutting the reload in half, and cutting the capacity in half as well. In addition to making it a requirement that once you start the mod, turning it off requires a reload regardless of if its empty or not.

Another is a slight increase of CPU and PG fitting requirements to force off more DPS or Ewar orientated mods.


I will still laugh at the OP however for going "OMG my target (on test server no less) fit a tank to counter my faction BS's advantage and beat me! OMG, OMG nerf it nerf it!", "I had a Bhaal, I should have won!", and his assault on some other guys Kilboard stats when he had a differing opinion. Most notably when i couldn't find any recent data on the OPs PvP history.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2012-07-31 18:51:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
MASB only hold 10 charges. Dual MASB frigate fits are gimped on outgoing DPS as each booster requires 50 CPU to fit - that can eat into possible damage mods. MASB are fine.

LASB can hold 13 charges. I've only heard of these being dual fitted on Cyclones or Feroxes. You really need the shield bonuses of the ships to make them shine. It doesn't take alot of firepower to run these into the ground. More prevalent is the oversized X-LASB fits. A simple, elegant solution would be to crank up it's fitting requirement.

The 'max' numbers being thrown out are a hoot. I live in low sec. If someone is flying around in cyclones with a Tengu alt and crystal implants word is going to get around. He either won't get engaged OR will get blobbed. If you want to bring 4 billion in isk to the party I have no qualms about doing the same.


I get engaged all the time.

-Liang


Lol. Well, at least you are honest. ;)

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Zicon Shak'ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-07-31 18:54:54 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
MASB only hold 10 charges. Dual MASB frigate fits are gimped on outgoing DPS as each booster requires 50 CPU to fit - that can eat into possible damage mods. MASB are fine.

LASB can hold 13 charges. I've only heard of these being dual fitted on Cyclones or Feroxes. You really need the shield bonuses of the ships to make them shine. It doesn't take alot of firepower to run these into the ground. More prevalent is the oversized X-LASB fits. A simple, elegant solution would be to crank up it's fitting requirement.

The 'max' numbers being thrown out are a hoot. I live in low sec. If someone is flying around in cyclones with a Tengu alt and crystal implants word is going to get around. He either won't get engaged OR will get blobbed. If you want to bring 4 billion in isk to the party I have no qualms about doing the same.


I get engaged all the time.

-Liang


Lol. Well, at least you are honest. ;)


It takes a lot of balls to admit you've had that many lovers.

Wormholes are cool, m'kay?
Canabi
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#198 - 2012-07-31 19:19:49 UTC
Adrenalinemax wrote:
Holy Crap, lemme get a 55 gallon drum, your tear ducts are in overload

His tears cool down his tear ducts, resulting in no heat damage taken while in overload. This is OP and must be nerfed.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#199 - 2012-07-31 19:21:00 UTC
Zicon Shak'ra wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
MASB only hold 10 charges. Dual MASB frigate fits are gimped on outgoing DPS as each booster requires 50 CPU to fit - that can eat into possible damage mods. MASB are fine.

LASB can hold 13 charges. I've only heard of these being dual fitted on Cyclones or Feroxes. You really need the shield bonuses of the ships to make them shine. It doesn't take alot of firepower to run these into the ground. More prevalent is the oversized X-LASB fits. A simple, elegant solution would be to crank up it's fitting requirement.

The 'max' numbers being thrown out are a hoot. I live in low sec. If someone is flying around in cyclones with a Tengu alt and crystal implants word is going to get around. He either won't get engaged OR will get blobbed. If you want to bring 4 billion in isk to the party I have no qualms about doing the same.


I get engaged all the time.

-Liang


Lol. Well, at least you are honest. ;)


It takes a lot of balls to admit you've had that many lovers.


What can I say? I'm a player. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pipa Porto
#200 - 2012-07-31 19:50:15 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Sure he is. Keep doing damage while he's unable to hurt you (he's sacrificed an awful lot for his 2 X-L ASBs), and he will eventually run out of charges.


As others have pointed out, there is no real downside compared to SB + cap booster, and I wasn't specifically talking about double ASB.


Sure there is. Cap Booster gives you Cap that you can use for other things, like a prop mod, or your guns, or your hardeners, or neuts, etc.

And a Shield Booster can operate while the Cap booster reloads for a min... (wait...) 10s. That's another benefit of the SB+Cap Booster. You don't immediately die on the reload.

(BTW, properly Cycled, a Cap Booster+SB tank is very resistant to neuts)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto