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Developer Comments on Mining Crystals and Cargo Capacity?

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Dave stark
#21 - 2012-07-31 15:34:25 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently


i both love you for the good news, and hate you for being so vague as to say "wait and see".
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#22 - 2012-07-31 16:08:10 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently


i both love you for the good news, and hate you for being so vague as to say "wait and see".


The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they areBear)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#23 - 2012-07-31 16:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Dave stark wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Hulks aren't meant for soloing. Use a mackinaw, which requires less crystals.

In a hulk, you can just refit off the orca.


no you can't! my alt can't see in the corp hangar of my main's orca. even worse if you're in an npc corp because you can't even get roles to alleviate this problem.

even worse on multi-corp ops.


Right-click, configure ship, allow fleet access...


hmm didn't realise that was there. thanks.
still doesn't really solve the issue though since you're not going to have a handful of hulks all anchored on an orca... you're just asking to be smartbombed. etc.

considering there's never been an issue with us carrying crystals before i don't see why ccp are so insistant on making it an issue now.


It does not work.

Once you have fleet access, all the guys not in the Orca's corp can't take anything out. This happens a lot when using 2+ Orcas or doing multi-corp fleets.


Also, the more you make Hulk's micromanagement cumbersome and clunky, the more:

- people resort to bots. You know, the programs to make life easier. Not needed for the other mining ships.
- people will switch to Macks. Macks will come closer to viability to Hulks the more the Hulks are cumbersome to use and past a certain thresold they become just almost as good as an Hulk minus all the downsides of using an Hulk.


If anything, the Hulks should be streamlined to perform at their top in an easier way than the other ships, to give them the clear superiority needed to justify the smaller EHP and cargo hold.
Since cumbersome micromanagement is just boring and not skillful play, it's useless.
Any penalty would have to affect non performance related features. I.e. make crystals wear down more often but not force people to slow down and similar, because if they have to slow down (i.e. have to stagger lasers but a roid just popped so you have to wait) then they stop being the ship of choice for efficient fleet mining.

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Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-07-31 16:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
CCP Goliath wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently


i both love you for the good news, and hate you for being so vague as to say "wait and see".


The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they areBear)


Good cover CCP Goliath :D

On a serious note, you are being forced to wait 20 hours plus the time it takes you to update the SiSi client. Don't worry, you'll still have a week to test out the new changes.

On a less serious and very sarcastic note, GOSH CCP GOLIATH Y U NO CATER TO THE IMPATIENT PLAERS? CCP = FAIL. HOW DARE U KEEP TEST SERVER STATS FROM US. I DEMAND THEORYCRAFT RIGHT MEOW! /quitEVE

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
Dave stark
#25 - 2012-07-31 16:18:24 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently


i both love you for the good news, and hate you for being so vague as to say "wait and see".


The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they areBear)


but the sisi mirror is quite old and i'm missing things like exhumer V and t2 drones and all that jazz. :(
Jim Era
#26 - 2012-07-31 16:22:44 UTC
isn't the hulk supposed to be used in fleet ops? not solo, you're doing it wrong. get the other guys to carry your crystal

Wat™
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-07-31 16:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently


i both love you for the good news, and hate you for being so vague as to say "wait and see".


The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they areBear)


but the sisi mirror is quite old and i'm missing things like exhumer V and t2 drones and all that jazz. :(


What happened to that partial mirroring of skills from TQ to Sisi? I remember being really excited because I'm lazy and would only have to train on 1 set of accounts. It sorta fell off the face of the earth which I suppose means the Devs are working on it and it will be out SoonTM. Kinda like how the old API keys will stop working SoonTM :D

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#28 - 2012-07-31 16:34:56 UTC
Jim Era wrote:
isn't the hulk supposed to be used in fleet ops? not solo, you're doing it wrong. get the other guys to carry your crystal


Be in fleet ops is because of the bad tank (need protection) and smaller cargo hold, not because of some dumb finger-flipping at purposedly created no skill time sinks.

Otherwise the guy in the Mack will just compete unhindered by any of the crap, including having all the cargo space to wait for haulers to go unload and be back, having better tank and not having to waste time = efficiency.

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AdmiralJohn
The Unknown Bar and Pub
#29 - 2012-07-31 16:45:39 UTC
This is why you never cater to miners. You give them a super-buffed ship, and they cry that they might actually have to play with others in an MMO. Oh, the horror.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#30 - 2012-07-31 16:46:49 UTC
This is just plain silly.

You can only mine 3 rocks at a time. You have space for 3 spare crystals and 3 other crystals if the rocks you mine run out. Changing out and replacing missing crystals take how long? now consider how long 9 crystal will last you. Solo or in a Fleet this should never be a problem. Seriously people should think about things, before they whine



o7
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden
#31 - 2012-07-31 16:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Carola Kessler
Jim Era wrote:
isn't the hulk supposed to be used in fleet ops? not solo, you're doing it wrong. get the other guys to carry your crystal



Sorry to tell you, after checking on Sisi the changes for Hulk, even with Fleet support they absolutely suck in Comparision to the new Inthroned Best Mining Exhumer which will be the Mack, After have checked the stats for a while with and without using Orca support letting doing some friends the maths, it pretty seems if the current changes go live including the ressists decrease to 5% per skilllevel the hulk isn't worth anymore training or learning for.

The absolute negative impact isnt the lack of Cargo space this easily can get preventet by having a Orca carrying the Crystals for you needed. but the most problem and worsest is, The Yield even if tanked base yield in Comparision Mackinaw 310% against Hulk 390%.

So...80% difference..i'd say this is laughable if you take the difference in place about the Defense, Mackinaw is at least able t get 45k EHP with MLU's fitted, Hulk only about 29k EHP with NONE.....i repeat NON MLU fitted.

So this numbers in mind, Technically the Age of Hulks is over with those Changes going live at the 8th of August......may the Hulk rest in Peace or in Latin.

Resquiscant in Pace....Here lies the Hulk....Died cause of promissed changes from CCP but got Nerfed to dead instead.

Sincerly

Carola Kessler


ALso as Edit addendum: CCP if you really get those changes to the Live server, then at least reset the Exhumerskills from everyone to zero and reimburse the learned Skillpoints so everyone can decide if they want still to fly a Exhumer class Mining ship.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#32 - 2012-07-31 16:56:57 UTC
Carola Kessler wrote:
Jim Era wrote:
isn't the hulk supposed to be used in fleet ops? not solo, you're doing it wrong. get the other guys to carry your crystal



Sorry to tell you, after checking on Sisi the changes for Hulk, even with Fleet support they absolutely suck in Comparision to the new Inthroned Best Mining Exhumer which will be the Mack, After have checked the stats for a while with and without using Orca support letting doing some friends the maths, it pretty seems if the current changes go live including the ressists decrease to 5% per skilllevel the hulk isn't worth anymore training or learning for.

The absolute negative impact isnt the lack of Cargo space this easily can get preventet by having a Orca carrying the Crystals for you needed. but the most problem and worsest is, The Yield even if tanked base yield in Comparision Mackinaw 310% against Hulk 390%.

So...80% difference..i'd say this is laughable if you take the difference in place about the Defense, Mackinaw is at least able t get 45k EHP with MLU's fitted, Hulk only about 29k EHP with NONE.....i repeat NON MLU fitted.

So this numbers in mind, Technically the Age of Hulks is over with those Changes going live at the 8th of August......may the Hulk rest in Peace or in Latin.

Resquiscant in Pace....Here lies the Hulk....Died cause of promissed changes from CCP but got Nerfed to dead instead.

Sincerly

Carola Kessler



You do know that 20k ehp is enough to stop a solo cat gank?. You do know that these changes only change the Ship. not the playstyle? It still remains a fact. Yes that word Fact. That using all the relevant advice found on these very forums will still remain applicable. A hulk in the hands of a true mining warrior. that knows his boat, his surrounding, actually takes care to keep his ship safe. will be max yielding, in relative safety



o7
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2012-07-31 17:06:24 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

not because of some dumb finger-flipping at purposedly created no skill time sinks..

if you dislike these why are you mining
Carola Kessler
Lost Sisters Of New Eden
#34 - 2012-07-31 17:08:05 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Carola Kessler wrote:
Jim Era wrote:
isn't the hulk supposed to be used in fleet ops? not solo, you're doing it wrong. get the other guys to carry your crystal



Sorry to tell you, after checking on Sisi the changes for Hulk, even with Fleet support they absolutely suck in Comparision to the new Inthroned Best Mining Exhumer which will be the Mack, After have checked the stats for a while with and without using Orca support letting doing some friends the maths, it pretty seems if the current changes go live including the ressists decrease to 5% per skilllevel the hulk isn't worth anymore training or learning for.

The absolute negative impact isnt the lack of Cargo space this easily can get preventet by having a Orca carrying the Crystals for you needed. but the most problem and worsest is, The Yield even if tanked base yield in Comparision Mackinaw 310% against Hulk 390%.

So...80% difference..i'd say this is laughable if you take the difference in place about the Defense, Mackinaw is at least able t get 45k EHP with MLU's fitted, Hulk only about 29k EHP with NONE.....i repeat NON MLU fitted.

So this numbers in mind, Technically the Age of Hulks is over with those Changes going live at the 8th of August......may the Hulk rest in Peace or in Latin.

Resquiscant in Pace....Here lies the Hulk....Died cause of promissed changes from CCP but got Nerfed to dead instead.

Sincerly

Carola Kessler



You do know that 20k ehp is enough to stop a solo cat gank?. You do know that these changes only change the Ship. not the playstyle? It still remains a fact. Yes that word Fact. That using all the relevant advice found on these very forums will still remain applicable. A hulk in the hands of a true mining warrior. that knows his boat, his surrounding, actually takes care to keep his ship safe. will be max yielding, in relative safety



o7




You talk about SOLO gank, i'm referring to Gangganks, which with first changes brougth on Sisi the Hulk eventually could survive properly so the gankers would have to bring in more Firepower like as BC's and stuff, with the changes now, again its like as current closely, yes a single Cata can still gank then a Hulk....and YES those which are fitting a Max Cargo / YIeld fit will die within seconds.... .

Whatever....its like talking to a wall, most Miners can't change and wringe their head around, to acomplish the fact Having a Suvived Hulk doesn't need to repleaced while a Max yield esploded Hulk need to get replaced to raising costs...blaah blubb...*shrughs and leaves thread shaking her head in Frustration*

Sincerly

Carola Kessler
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#35 - 2012-07-31 17:10:05 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Check it in tomorrow's build and see if you feel differently


i both love you for the good news, and hate you for being so vague as to say "wait and see".


The reason I'm not giving stats is because I want people to actually go onto the test server and try the changes out rather than just theorycrafting on the forums basing their opinions of numbers that they have no source for and screenshots that provide little context.


(Also I don't know what they areBear)


but the sisi mirror is quite old and i'm missing things like exhumer V and t2 drones and all that jazz. :(


What happened to that partial mirroring of skills from TQ to Sisi? I remember being really excited because I'm lazy and would only have to train on 1 set of accounts. It sorta fell off the face of the earth which I suppose means the Devs are working on it and it will be out SoonTM. Kinda like how the old API keys will stop working SoonTM :D

The dev is on vacation but they are adding same log in not skills that will have to be a full mirror to get those

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#36 - 2012-07-31 17:19:16 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
This is just plain silly.

You can only mine 3 rocks at a time. You have space for 3 spare crystals and 3 other crystals if the rocks you mine run out. Changing out and replacing missing crystals take how long? now consider how long 9 crystal will last you. Solo or in a Fleet this should never be a problem. Seriously people should think about things, before they whine


o7


Today it's not a crime nor an exploit to sacrifice cargo hold to bring more crystals if one wants to.
Today if you want to escape Hulkageddon and do say a large grav site (i.e. very often) you get more than 3 minerals.
Today if you want to mine a L3-L4 mission you have to go 50-80km inside it, it's long to make that Orca get to you with new crystals over there with its awesome turtle speed.

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malcovas Henderson
THoF
#37 - 2012-07-31 17:21:34 UTC
Carola Kessler wrote:




You talk about SOLO gank, i'm referring to Gangganks, which with first changes brougth on Sisi the Hulk eventually could survive properly so the gankers would have to bring in more Firepower like as BC's and stuff, with the changes now, again its like as current closely, yes a single Cata can still gank then a Hulk....and YES those which are fitting a Max Cargo / YIeld fit will die within seconds.... .

Whatever....its like talking to a wall, most Miners can't change and wringe their head around, to acomplish the fact Having a Suvived Hulk doesn't need to repleaced while a Max yield esploded Hulk need to get replaced to raising costs...blaah blubb...*shrughs and leaves thread shaking her head in Frustration*

Sincerly

Carola Kessler



Just look at my Forum history to see that I am a self confessed miner first and foremost. I have so far never lost a Hulk. Max yield or Tank fit. Any gang gank that puts the effort in deserves to kill. 20kehp in a 0.7 will still require at least 3 dessies.

The bit that people seem to be forgetting. The Hulk is the pinacle of yield . this STILL remains the case. CCP have improved the other boats for different roles. The base factor remains the same for mining. The Hulk is still the pinacle of yield. But it comes at a cost. As it should be.


o7
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#38 - 2012-07-31 17:21:46 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

not because of some dumb finger-flipping at purposedly created no skill time sinks..

if you dislike these why are you mining


Why, is it August 8th, when these changes will happen?

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#39 - 2012-07-31 17:22:24 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Lilliana Stelles wrote:
Hulks aren't meant for soloing. Use a mackinaw, which requires less crystals.

In a hulk, you can just refit off the orca.

Its not about what we think CCP ment with what they are giving is, its what exactly CCP thought they were accomplishing.
More industrial usage, more orca support, they forgot they made crystals so large, whatever it might be.


http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=72890

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Covetor/hulk: ore bay is identical to its current cargo hold, little to average EHP, but best mining output. Basically made for group operations when players have industrials and protection to back them up.


CCP has plainly stated that hulks are intended for fleet ops.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#40 - 2012-07-31 17:26:55 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
malcovas Henderson wrote:
This is just plain silly.

You can only mine 3 rocks at a time. You have space for 3 spare crystals and 3 other crystals if the rocks you mine run out. Changing out and replacing missing crystals take how long? now consider how long 9 crystal will last you. Solo or in a Fleet this should never be a problem. Seriously people should think about things, before they whine


o7


Today it's not a crime nor an exploit to sacrifice cargo hold to bring more crystals if one wants to.
Today if you want to escape Hulkageddon and do say a large grav site (i.e. very often) you get more than 3 minerals.
Today if you want to mine a L3-L4 mission you have to go 50-80km inside it, it's long to make that Orca get to you with new crystals over there with its awesome turtle speed.



I agree on some points with you. But still you can only use 3 crystals at a time. Those crystal (if you're not dense) will last longer that it takes to fill several orca's let alone an Exhumer. It's called adaption. I very rarely take Crystals with me. I have fleet support. I have multi corp fleet support, and have NEVER thats right NEVER had a problem with no crystals in my cargo hold.


o7