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Barge Fairy Tale

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Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#2401 - 2012-07-31 08:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalua Rui
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Jet can mining is a crutch "invented" by players, CCP did not even mean it.


1000x this... people seam to forget that all the time.

But I have to say... the "new" Hulk IS desinged to work in large/well outfitted mining fleets now... in conjunction with Orcas or Porqs. For everything else, there are the other ships now.

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Pipa Porto
#2402 - 2012-07-31 08:31:22 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Ah, in that case ignore VV since VV only mines once a year for lulz.

The Hulk's ore bay only needs to be large enough for three cycles worth of ore from a max-bonused strip miner. Maybe four if the pilot is staggering lasers to buy time for a sandwich-making trip to the kitchen.



Why more than 1? It's meant to run with hauler support. Either have it in the belt with you or accept the risk that comes with jet cans.


Because the hauler needs continuously to run off and unload?

Try yourself managing 3 Hulks and 1 indy or something (it IS a fleet already, not everyone have 2 Orcas for your fantasy world theorycraft). The indy gets continuously full, the Hulks won't be synchronized in their cycles (maybe if you bot? But we are not catering to botters right?) so you'll always end with an Hulk at half cycle one at 2/3 and the Hauler has to go dump.

Jet can mining is a crutch "invented" by players, CCP did not even mean it.
Making a whole ship line rely on a crutch that make them less efficient than AFK other ships is a nonsense.

Hulk has to have enough room to grant uninterrupted operation in mining fleets, not all mining fleets have super duper support.
AFK ships don't need any fleet, don't have any micromanagement endurance and they don't need to suffer any interruption.

The end result is making AFK ships very competitive just because of the pointless burden imposed on the supposed min max one. It's pointless because emptying every short time does not make you a better player.

It just makes you a better bot customer.


If you don't have enough hauler support for the size of your fleet, the Mackinaw is > Thataway.

And Jetcan mining's been around forever, intended or not. In this case, you're using it as a small buffer during the short time your Itty is hauling.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2403 - 2012-07-31 08:36:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Pipa Porto wrote:

If you don't have enough hauler support for the size of your fleet, the Mackinaw is > Thataway.

And Jetcan mining's been around forever, intended or not. In this case, you're using it as a small buffer during the short time your Itty is hauling.


Forgot you are the god of game balance (in this and other threads) and all MUST play your way or ====> Thatway. Sandbox as long as you decide the walls placement, the sand to use and what tools to hand out, eh?

No dear all you get is people switching to Macks (and then you'll cry again because Macks are harder to kill) except botters.

Botters can put a bot performing stupidly repetitive, frequent menial tasks, the others will indeed switch to something else.

And the next day you'll be here breaking everybody's balls because now all use hard and unprofitable ships to kill AND still get a competitive yield.



Also if I was cheap like you, about the 60 pages or so of pure savage crying about ships being buffed, I'd remind you that the lead developer said the official CCP position on this and he IS entitled to do so.

Why don't you take your own advice if you don't like it and go play =========> Thatway some other game?


You don't take your own advice? Well, so won't I.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2404 - 2012-07-31 11:08:01 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again; if you want to go afk do other things, fly a mackinaw not a hulk.


Or a cloaky ship which you can park in someone else's industrial system 24/7.

Or a Retribution which you just use for structure bashing.

If you want people to be tied to the computer while their account is logged in, go play some other game.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#2405 - 2012-07-31 11:11:11 UTC
As long as the hulk can tank nullsec BS belt rats still, dont think many are going to be that bothered by changes to hulks other than HS miners at risk from gankers (read afk doing xyz irl while hulk cycles strips) on the surface of it they could do with tinkering again with the cargo hold in the case of increasing it slightly so that it can fit 3 of each diff crystal type in there, some people go out mining with crystals for all ore types depending on what/where their mining, increasing the specialty ore hold to 8k wouldn't be a bad idea either, cause looking at the current changes they've taken the current hulk hold of 8k m3 and split it into 500 m3 cargo bay and 7.5k m3 ore hold.
as for hs vs LS/Null mining you CAN NOT afford to go afk in ls or null, if you do, well expect to wake up in your medi clone frequently :)
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2406 - 2012-07-31 11:12:58 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Why more than 1? It's meant to run with hauler support. Either have it in the belt with you or accept the risk that comes with jet cans.


More than 1 because the Hulk has 3 strip miners and I don't want to be continually dragging one cycle of ore to the Orca's corp hangar every minute. That's far too much attention to a task which takes my mouse away from the "warp the hell out of here" button Lol. 6000m3 is a decent size. People with ultimately maxed out yield can learn to stagger their strip miners. Being required to stagger strip miners because the ore bay isn't even big enough for min yield Strip Miner Is cycling simultaneously would be a pain in the neck.

Of course, I would very happily trade a 5% yield bonus for a 5% cycle time bonus. Change the Mining Foreman Mindlink from a 15% yield to a 5% cycle time on all mining lasers and I'd be a happy miner.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dave stark
#2407 - 2012-07-31 12:31:19 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i've said it before and i'll say it again; if you want to go afk do other things, fly a mackinaw not a hulk.


Or a cloaky ship which you can park in someone else's industrial system 24/7.

Or a Retribution which you just use for structure bashing.

If you want people to be tied to the computer while their account is logged in, go play some other game.


exactly there's a ship to let you go afk. the mackinaw is that ship not the hulk. deal with it.
Dave stark
#2408 - 2012-07-31 12:36:00 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Why more than 1? It's meant to run with hauler support. Either have it in the belt with you or accept the risk that comes with jet cans.


More than 1 because the Hulk has 3 strip miners and I don't want to be continually dragging one cycle of ore to the Orca's corp hangar every minute. That's far too much attention to a task which takes my mouse away from the "warp the hell out of here" button Lol. 6000m3 is a decent size. People with ultimately maxed out yield can learn to stagger their strip miners. Being required to stagger strip miners because the ore bay isn't even big enough for min yield Strip Miner Is cycling simultaneously would be a pain in the neck.

Of course, I would very happily trade a 5% yield bonus for a 5% cycle time bonus. Change the Mining Foreman Mindlink from a 15% yield to a 5% cycle time on all mining lasers and I'd be a happy miner.


you won't be dragging every min, you'll be dragging every ~2 mins depending on if you're in a fleet with an orca and a rorq. even then the difference in time isn't that substantial.

currently you're only going to go over 6k m3 / cycle if you're perfect skilled with a +5 implant... do yourself a favour and get a +3 and 6k cargo is more than sufficient if you don't want staggered strips [not that i'm having a go, just an observation]
and yes, i agree having to stagger strips would be a pain. hardly maxing yield if you're sitting there with inactive strips because you can't just warp in to a belt and turn them on.

trading yield for cycle time will never happen. fixed cycles and variable m3 vs variable cycles vs fixed yield is the defining factor between ore and ice mining respectively. inb4 orca links; mining foreman skill/implant. there are bonuses to yield and cycle times, except yield doesn't affect ice mining.

to be honest the new hulk is fine aside from the 350 cargo needs to go back to 500 like the covetor and all is good, imo.
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#2409 - 2012-07-31 14:39:50 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Why more than 1? It's meant to run with hauler support. Either have it in the belt with you or accept the risk that comes with jet cans.


More than 1 because the Hulk has 3 strip miners and I don't want to be continually dragging one cycle of ore to the Orca's corp hangar every minute. That's far too much attention to a task which takes my mouse away from the "warp the hell out of here" button Lol. 6000m3 is a decent size. People with ultimately maxed out yield can learn to stagger their strip miners. Being required to stagger strip miners because the ore bay isn't even big enough for min yield Strip Miner Is cycling simultaneously would be a pain in the neck.

Of course, I would very happily trade a 5% yield bonus for a 5% cycle time bonus. Change the Mining Foreman Mindlink from a 15% yield to a 5% cycle time on all mining lasers and I'd be a happy miner.


you won't be dragging every min, you'll be dragging every ~2 mins depending on if you're in a fleet with an orca and a rorq. even then the difference in time isn't that substantial.

currently you're only going to go over 6k m3 / cycle if you're perfect skilled with a +5 implant... do yourself a favour and get a +3 and 6k cargo is more than sufficient if you don't want staggered strips [not that i'm having a go, just an observation]
and yes, i agree having to stagger strips would be a pain. hardly maxing yield if you're sitting there with inactive strips because you can't just warp in to a belt and turn them on.

trading yield for cycle time will never happen. fixed cycles and variable m3 vs variable cycles vs fixed yield is the defining factor between ore and ice mining respectively. inb4 orca links; mining foreman skill/implant. there are bonuses to yield and cycle times, except yield doesn't affect ice mining.

to be honest the new hulk is fine aside from the 350 cargo needs to go back to 500 like the covetor and all is good, imo.


Really hope your joking on the 350m3 cargo hold thats smaller than a SBs cargo hold, think CCP needs to add a specialty crystal hold in that case on the hulks for holding crystals.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2410 - 2012-07-31 14:50:14 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:


Really hope your joking on the 350m3 cargo hold thats smaller than a SBs cargo hold, think CCP needs to add a specialty crystal hold in that case on the hulks for holding crystals.


Thats more than enough to hold crystals, if you want more just get the hauler to shuttle some more out to you.
Dave stark
#2411 - 2012-07-31 14:59:29 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
Really hope your joking on the 350m3 cargo hold thats smaller than a SBs cargo hold, think CCP needs to add a specialty crystal hold in that case on the hulks for holding crystals.


i really hope you're joking.
yes lets add a whole new, and pointless bay when you can just change 350 to 500 on 1 ship's stats in order to solve the problem. a number that shouldn't have been changed from 500 to begin with, especially since they didn't add that space to the ore bay.

also stealth bombers have nothing to do with this, besides they have 1 bomb launcher to load not 3, if you're trying to draw the worst parallel in the world between strip miners and bomb launchers.
Dave stark
#2412 - 2012-07-31 15:00:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:


Really hope your joking on the 350m3 cargo hold thats smaller than a SBs cargo hold, think CCP needs to add a specialty crystal hold in that case on the hulks for holding crystals.


Thats more than enough to hold crystals, if you want more just get the hauler to shuttle some more out to you.


and which other subcap needs 2 accounts to work properly?
in fact; think of it as rhetoric i don't want your answer. it'll just be stupid.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2413 - 2012-07-31 15:06:44 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:


Really hope your joking on the 350m3 cargo hold thats smaller than a SBs cargo hold, think CCP needs to add a specialty crystal hold in that case on the hulks for holding crystals.


Thats more than enough to hold crystals, if you want more just get the hauler to shuttle some more out to you.


and which other subcap needs 2 accounts to work properly?
in fact; think of it as rhetoric i don't want your answer. it'll just be stupid.


Because its so hard to warp to a station and grab more crystals every so often.
Dave stark
#2414 - 2012-07-31 15:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
baltec1 wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:


Really hope your joking on the 350m3 cargo hold thats smaller than a SBs cargo hold, think CCP needs to add a specialty crystal hold in that case on the hulks for holding crystals.


Thats more than enough to hold crystals, if you want more just get the hauler to shuttle some more out to you.


and which other subcap needs 2 accounts to work properly?
in fact; think of it as rhetoric i don't want your answer. it'll just be stupid.


Because its so hard to warp to a station and grab more crystals every so often.

defeats the entire purpose of the ship's role. if i wanted to warp back and forth i'd get in a mackinaw and just go afk. until my 30 min alarm goes off.

infact, if the 3% -> 5% yield modifier happens then i might actually accept this almost stupid answer because it'd be an absolute mining behemoth and the yield bonus would make up for the inconvenience.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#2415 - 2012-07-31 15:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Dave stark wrote:
defeats the entire purpose of the ship's role. if i wanted to warp back and forth i'd get in a mackinaw and just go afk. until my 30 min alarm goes off.


So use a Mackinaw.

I'll quote something I read earlier: "THE HULK IS NOT THE BEST MINING SHIP ANYMORE"

Use the proper ship for the proper job, tiercide is in effect, don't use a screw driver to hammer a nail.

If you can't deal with the limited space, use a different ship, simple as that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2416 - 2012-07-31 15:19:31 UTC
Dave stark wrote:

defeats the entire purpose of the ship's role. if i wanted to warp back and forth i'd get in a mackinaw and just go afk. until my 30 min alarm goes off.

infact, if the 3% -> 5% yield modifier happens then i might actually accept this almost stupid answer because it'd be an absolute mining behemoth and the yield bonus would make up for the inconvenience.


You will be docking a lot more to empty your hold on all the barges than needing to swarp crystals so just pick up more then. This really isnt an issue for solo or group play.
Dave stark
#2417 - 2012-07-31 15:21:25 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
defeats the entire purpose of the ship's role. if i wanted to warp back and forth i'd get in a mackinaw and just go afk. until my 30 min alarm goes off.


So use a Mackinaw.

I'll quote something I read earlier: "THE HULK IS NOT THE BEST MINING SHIP ANYMORE"

Use the proper ship for the proper job, teircide is in effect, don't use a screw driver to hammer a nail.

If you can't deal with the limited space, use a different ship, simple as that.


teircide isn't in effect at all, using the proper ship for the job would be using the hulk, however if the hulk isn't going to produce the goods because of bad design and the answer is "use the mack" which has more ehp, cargo, and yield due to less time wasted on bad design then....

we're simply handing the mackinaw the crown that the hulk currently wears and rebalancing hasn't balanced anything it's just crowned a new king of everything.
Dave stark
#2418 - 2012-07-31 15:22:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dave stark wrote:

defeats the entire purpose of the ship's role. if i wanted to warp back and forth i'd get in a mackinaw and just go afk. until my 30 min alarm goes off.

infact, if the 3% -> 5% yield modifier happens then i might actually accept this almost stupid answer because it'd be an absolute mining behemoth and the yield bonus would make up for the inconvenience.


You will be docking a lot more to empty your hold on all the barges than needing to swarp crystals so just pick up more then. This really isnt an issue for solo or group play.


you won't be docking more at all; you'll just be jetcanning, like you always were.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2419 - 2012-07-31 15:25:29 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


you won't be docking more at all; you'll just be jetcanning, like you always were.


Well then thats your choice if you want to jetcan solo. If you really want you can fit cargo expanders to hold more crystals.
Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#2420 - 2012-07-31 15:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Andoria Thara
Dave stark wrote:

teircide isn't in effect at all, using the proper ship for the job would be using the hulk, however if the hulk isn't going to produce the goods because of bad design and the answer is "use the mack" which has more ehp, cargo, and yield due to less time wasted on bad design then....

we're simply handing the mackinaw the crown that the hulk currently wears and rebalancing hasn't balanced anything it's just crowned a new king of everything.


The Hulk will work fine, like someone else mentioned, store your crystals in the orca or a hauling ship. You don't need 1000m3 or even 500m3 worth of space to hold crystals.

Hell even 150m3 is perfectly fine for a mining op, pick which type of rock you are going to mine, equip your 3 crystals, put 3 backup crystals in your cargo, and start mining.

Edit: CCP Goliath just replied over in the other thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1725209#post1725209