These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

infinitely vulnerable?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#61 - 2012-07-29 22:13:22 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

I think you are right but only time will tell. It is summer after all. But considering that Amarrs current focus is oplexing to get to a good tier for cash out I am not surprised if we see a drop in PvP. Oplexing is most efficient solo and it favors flying small fast ships without guns. Both of which will discourage PvP. And the no docking to reship or replace after a fight doesn't help either.

I think we are starting to see what FW will become if these mechanics stay intact. For the most part it will be much of a waste land with a few fights for fun near some key systems (e.g. Kamela) while one team is plexing to bring as many systems to vulnerable as they muster without going insane or some trigger happy FC think they have had enough of it and start flipping.

Then we will see a week or so of epic fighting for warzone control when one team tries to get to T5. Rinse and repeat.

I personally don't think the general idea is bad. But there might be to much time spent in the plexing a wasteland state and too little time spent in epic fighting for warzone control for my liking. Three things could be done to improve that:

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable


The thing is, you probably won't see any epic fighting for warzone control when one side decides to flip all the systems just because they'll do it in their dominant timezone to maximize how many systems they can flip at once. The current issue is that offensive plexing, defensive plexing, and PVP are all activities that are fairly disjointed from one another. PVP happens to overlap on occasion, but not as much as it should since plexing strategies that focus on PVP avoidance tend to be more successful.

Its absolutely ridiculous that our "ignore plexing and focus on PVP" strategy got us up to 19 vulnerable + 3 controlled systems pre-Nulli, which is 3 more systems than we ever owned when we were actively contesting the warzone. While I think the meta-gaming of system control strategies that you're seeing evolve is interesting, ultimately they promote extended periods of stagnation over constant and direct exciting warfare driven PVP conflict.

Yeah, the main problem as you say is that plexing and PvP are disjointed. I belive my three suggestions above would improve the situation though.

A more correct name of our current strategy would be "Don't flip systems! (until we are ready for a push)". And I will be surprised if that will not become the dominant strategy in FW. But you maybe right in assuming there won't be an epic battle for warzone control. It does not make much sense to try stop the push (you can't). Flipping back a few systems will just prolong the pain of T1 WZC. Thus min/maxing suggest you should just capitulate and start oplexing immediately instead. But I am sure there will be some good fights at least and how long will it take to flip 56+ systems. Surely, it would take more than one night?


You are blaming the new strategy for a problem that has existed forever in faction war. The problem is plexing is best done in a pve ship. This has nothing to do with vulnerablility or lp or for dplexing or oplexing. Even when neither oplexing and dplexing paid lp we had that same problem of plexing being most efficiently done in a pve ship.

"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), ….111 faction warfare complexes were captured … I did not kill anyone in the process..” Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00

This problem has nothing to do with the tier system. The problem is you are better off ninja plexing than you are staying and fighting. The reason you are better off trying to hide from wartargets instead of fighting is because you can hide from wartargets and run plexes. If we had a notification systems that would change. You could run but you would not be abel to hide and plex. Hence you would start figuring when you open a plex that you will get a fight if you want the lp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#62 - 2012-07-30 00:58:12 UTC
Well Vordak, I have to admit it was a good troll and some impressive meta-gaming, congrats on getting us to lower our guard and leave the Falcons and neut logi at home for the sake of good fights, only to drop 3 Falcons in a 10 man fight with roughly even numbers. vOv

I just hope this means you guys will stop complaining about not getting good fights and using "cheesy" tactics.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#63 - 2012-07-30 01:12:40 UTC
I just lost an sfi with no kills because I took a fight in kourm that was not in a plex and got jammed by 2 falcons. Until they fix plexes this will be the way of eve. In the meantime complaining about what ships the other side brought won't solve anything.

IMO It is not a good game if people have to have agreements to play it less than what they think is optimal in order to make it fun.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#64 - 2012-07-30 03:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Feldman
Cearain wrote:
I just lost an sfi with no kills because I took a fight in kourm that was not in a plex and got jammed by 2 falcons. Until they fix plexes this will be the way of eve. In the meantime complaining about what ships the other side brought won't solve anything.

IMO It is not a good game if people have to have agreements to play it less than what they think is optimal in order to make it fun.



Yeah, I agree that you don't want to turn things into RvB, but at the same time I admit I was hoping for a few more things closer to "gudfites" rather than bait and ganks especially since thats what many of the Minnies had been claiming to be after as well.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Lexmana
#65 - 2012-07-30 08:11:20 UTC
Cearain wrote:

You are blaming the new strategy for a problem that has existed forever in faction war. The problem is plexing is best done in a pve ship. This has nothing to do with vulnerablility or lp or for dplexing or oplexing. Even when neither oplexing and dplexing paid lp we had that same problem of plexing being most efficiently done in a pve ship.

I know this has been an issue for a long time. The new mechanics just amplifies the problem because it is now profitable to farm them.

One thing that would make it more PvP is plex are reset if you leave before capture. That would probably discourage a lot of PvE farmers because you need to be prepared to fight or you will lose profit.

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable
4. Plex resets when if you exit before capture
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#66 - 2012-07-30 09:17:14 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:

You are blaming the new strategy for a problem that has existed forever in faction war. The problem is plexing is best done in a pve ship. This has nothing to do with vulnerablility or lp or for dplexing or oplexing. Even when neither oplexing and dplexing paid lp we had that same problem of plexing being most efficiently done in a pve ship.

I know this has been an issue for a long time. The new mechanics just amplifies the problem because it is now profitable to farm them.

One thing that would make it more PvP is plex are reset if you leave before capture. That would probably discourage a lot of PvE farmers because you need to be prepared to fight or you will lose profit.

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable
4. Plex resets when if you exit before capture

I'd go further than that:
1. Kill all NPC to capture plex by only running timer when area is "clear" OR assign LP values to NPCs and have at least 50% of a given plex's LP come from killing. Tweak NPC stats to make it tolerable.
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running or a similar mechanism to make them mind their own business. Will require some advanced AI coders though which I reckon is why CCP opted for the quick'n'dirty eWar removal with intent to follow up (keep an eye on them, betcha they'll find some new super-farm friendly solution to the PvP issue called NPCs Smile).
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable by roughly 33-50% and put the removed plex into the upgrade path for systems (needs to and is going to be tweaked/changed/altered) so that a holder can make it harder to flip. Double whammy would be to replace WZC with a constellation based system to make local fighting more intense and not doing defensive work more painful (every sperm system is sacred).
To really shake things up, the upgrades could be represented by add-ons on system bunker that would have to be destroyed for bonus to be removed (mini-bunker busts, just enough EHP to discourage using the minimalistic approach of Trash spam etc.).
4. Plex timer automatically starts counting back when leaving grid, originally suggested by Merdaneth (former PIE) some three
years ago .. minimizes defensive time waste and forces the issue of Pew. Additionally, if spawns are tied to timer then they could be slowly regenerated (ready to spawn, not actually spawned) as well.

Add the fixes to obvious oversights such as system VP accruing infintely making vulnerable systems essentially impossible to save without gaming the system to the extreme and throw dread alts into enemy militia.

The last changes to FW has given me the distinct feeling that CCP were probing us players to see how little work they could get away with to make FW "go away" ... very few parts of it appear to have had any significant thought put into it .. bodes well for null though as all that dev time/brains/thought must have been spent somewhere Smile
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-07-30 13:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Squatdog
The current plexing system is laughably, retardedly broken and means that the sovereignty mechanics are dominated by an endless stream of low-skill AFK farming alts in unarmed T1 frigs. Many of whom belong to players who aren't even in militia.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17080476

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17082001

On top of that, you have players blatantly exploiting their Caldari standings to run plexes without the NPCs aggressing, then cloaking up when anything appears on scan.



The obvious solution is to make it so the NPCs have to be killed in order to cap the plex, or at least have a 'boss wave' as the final spawn. This would solve most of the problems and force the Nullbear farmers to go back to Concording highsec Sansha fleets (or whatever it is they do).


Quote:
You are blaming the new strategy for a problem that has existed forever in faction war. The problem is plexing is best done in a pve ship. This has nothing to do with vulnerablility or lp or for dplexing or oplexing. Even when neither oplexing and dplexing paid lp we had that same problem of plexing being most efficiently done in a pve ship.


Unarmed T1 frigs AREN'T'PVE Ships'.

There were plenty of plex fights back in the 'good old days' and it was perfectly feasible to kill the waves off one by one with a PVP fit, even with all the EWAR.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#68 - 2012-07-30 17:56:08 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I just lost an sfi with no kills because I took a fight in kourm that was not in a plex and got jammed by 2 falcons. Until they fix plexes this will be the way of eve. In the meantime complaining about what ships the other side brought won't solve anything.

IMO It is not a good game if people have to have agreements to play it less than what they think is optimal in order to make it fun.



Yeah, I agree that you don't want to turn things into RvB, but at the same time I admit I was hoping for a few more things closer to "gudfites" rather than bait and ganks especially since thats what many of the Minnies had been claiming to be after as well.


IMO the most important thing you can do to get more goodfights in eve is push for mechanics changes that bring about pvp in plexes. Pretty much all plex fights are good fights.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#69 - 2012-07-30 18:28:57 UTC

Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:

You are blaming the new strategy for a problem that has existed forever in faction war. The problem is plexing is best done in a pve ship. This has nothing to do with vulnerablility or lp or for dplexing or oplexing. Even when neither oplexing and dplexing paid lp we had that same problem of plexing being most efficiently done in a pve ship.

I know this has been an issue for a long time. The new mechanics just amplifies the problem because it is now profitable to farm them.

One thing that would make it more PvP is plex are reset if you leave before capture. That would probably discourage a lot of PvE farmers because you need to be prepared to fight or you will lose profit.

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable
4. Plex resets when if you exit before capture




A full out reset everytime you leave may be a bit much. I can imagine "large gangs" just running through systems constantly chasing out all the plexers resetting their timers and mvoing on. Plus sometimes I leave the plex to split a gang up. I don't want all my time on the plex to instantly go away.

The idea should be that if a large gang sees there are 5 enemies plexing in 5 different systems they need to split the blob up and go fight them. IMO it is not really a good solution if they can just stay in their big blob and reset all the timers one after another. I want fights not just to be chased out by blob.(Nor do I want to be in a blob chasing people out to reset their timers.) IMO I would like to have lots of fights going on throughout the warzone not just your typical "lets get in the biggest fleet we can, and go blobbing around low sec"

I think a mechanic that made the timer automatically count back down to zero (or even back down 3 minutes or zero whichever is first,) if a wt lands on grid with the button or on grid with the accell gate would encourage pvp just as much a reset, without, potentially ruining the small scale pvp that makes plexing great.

However whether its a countdown or a reset both will be a pretty major nerf to running plexes. If ccp wants to keep running plexes economically competitive with running missions then they will also need to nerf the lp from missions.

I think what is most important though is that the divide is not between old faction war players and new faction war players. But the divide is between those who want plexing to be a great way to get goodfights and those who don't really care. I think you pinky and vordak and hans all want it to be a mechnanic to produce good fights. So we are on the same page.

IMO Some sort of notification or interface that tells us in real time what type of plex and how many are attacking it is the key to faction war. We can then immediately go and start fighting for these plexes without all the down time that usually accompanies pvp in eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#70 - 2012-07-30 18:35:13 UTC
Squatdog wrote:



Quote:
You are blaming the new strategy for a problem that has existed forever in faction war. The problem is plexing is best done in a pve ship. This has nothing to do with vulnerablility or lp or for dplexing or oplexing. Even when neither oplexing and dplexing paid lp we had that same problem of plexing being most efficiently done in a pve ship.


Unarmed T1 frigs AREN'T'PVE Ships'.

There were plenty of plex fights back in the 'good old days' and it was perfectly feasible to kill the waves off one by one with a PVP fit, even with all the EWAR.



Yeah they are. Just like in that level 4 mission where you go through the gas clouds and get to the accel gate there is no need for guns on your ship, but its still pve. And vice versa, just putting guns on your ship won't make it pvp.

Plus you may not realize it, but inferno 1.0 changed nothing from the "good old days" to make it easier to run with no guns. Its just that people *realize* its easier to run plexes in a pve ship. But the plex mechanics were the same back then too.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-07-31 01:09:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Squatdog
Cearain wrote:





Plus you may not realize it, but inferno 1.0 changed nothing from the "good old days" to make it easier to run with no guns. Its just that people *realize* its easier to run plexes in a pve ship. But the plex mechanics were the same back then too.


Under the old system, people would be flying PVP fits and would often fight over plexes, instead of whoring 3 low-skill Incursus alts simultaneously and running at the first sign of PVP. Also, open Majors couldn't be speed tanked because of the neuting final spawn.

Quote:
And vice versa, just putting guns on your ship won't make it pvp.


Having to kill the NPCs means that people won't be able to AFK farm Majors with low-skill Incursus alts.

Having to fit guns means that plexers will actually be CAPABLE of PVP.




Quote:
Yeah they are. Just like in that level 4 mission where you go through the gas clouds and get to the accel gate there is no need for guns on your ship, but its still pve. And vice versa, just putting guns on your ship won't make it pvp.


You mean that ONE mission with no NPCs in it?

Great example!
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-07-31 01:13:08 UTC
Quote:
IMO the most important thing you can do to get more goodfights in eve is push for mechanics changes that bring about pvp in plexes. Pretty much all plex fights are good fights.


Ninja-ganking AFK Incursus alts isn't a 'good fight'.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#73 - 2012-07-31 13:03:28 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
Cearain wrote:





Plus you may not realize it, but inferno 1.0 changed nothing from the "good old days" to make it easier to run with no guns. Its just that people *realize* its easier to run plexes in a pve ship. But the plex mechanics were the same back then too.


Under the old system, people would be flying PVP fits and would often fight over plexes, instead of whoring 3 low-skill Incursus alts simultaneously and running at the first sign of PVP. Also, open Majors couldn't be speed tanked because of the neuting final spawn.

Quote:
And vice versa, just putting guns on your ship won't make it pvp.


Having to kill the NPCs means that people won't be able to AFK farm Majors with low-skill Incursus alts.

Having to fit guns means that plexers will actually be CAPABLE of PVP.



Not really.

I agree that killing all the rats is a good thing for balance reasons. But its not going to make plexing pvp. Pilots will just bring out pve ships to ninja plexes. I know because to run amarr major plexes you used to have to kill all the rats. And I found that it was still most efectively done in a pve ship. Unless you have a considerably larger ship or a dedicated speed tanking alt amarr will generally not want to take pvp fights against minmatar in a minmatar plex.




Quote:
Yeah they are. Just like in that level 4 mission where you go through the gas clouds and get to the accel gate there is no need for guns on your ship, but its still pve. And vice versa, just putting guns on your ship won't make it pvp.


You mean that ONE mission with no NPCs in it?

Great example![/quote]

There are a few and some of them have npcs. But whatever you can continue to think a no gun incursus that is specifically fit to tank rats isn't a pve ships.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#74 - 2012-07-31 13:05:49 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
Quote:
IMO the most important thing you can do to get more goodfights in eve is push for mechanics changes that bring about pvp in plexes. Pretty much all plex fights are good fights.


Ninja-ganking AFK Incursus alts isn't a 'good fight'.



Fair enough. I agree because I agree that ganking pve ships isn't a good fight.

But then again that is not my thing others may think ganking pve ships is great.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815