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New dev blog: Upcoming Tutorial Revisions

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Author
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#141 - 2012-07-31 08:49:01 UTC
New Player PvP Training: Warp to the deadspace arena. Two rookie ships enter, one rookie ship leaves! Twisted

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#142 - 2012-07-31 09:32:03 UTC
Quoting myself from features & ideas thread, because this is the official thread and there is a slight chance CCP might look at it...

In response to "make the tutorial longer and make it explain more stuff":


Abdiel Kavash wrote:
I personally disagree. (And I must stress that this is my personal opinion as a player, I am not a games designer, I am not trying to tell CCP how to do their job, just sharing my thoughts.)

For some reason many developers in the past few years, now CCP included, pretend that the only interaction a new player has with the game is through the tutorials. They feel the need to explain every tiny bit through lengthy series of "do this, trust me" instructions and/or throw a huge wall of text at the player.

Now I don't know about others, but when I get into a game, especially such a complex one, I tend to do a little bit of reading on it. I knew EVE was advertised as extremely complex, I spent about two weeks browsing the official website, forums, and guides before I even registered to get a feel of the game. Even if one doesn't do this research beforehand, all these resources are readily available - in EVE even without tabbing out of the game through the IGB.

In my opinion the tutorial should explain how to use the UI - how to undock, how to fly your ship, how to shoot at things. As far as I remember that was what it was like when I started. Then there were I think three career agents to show off the various career paths, and off to the real game. The tutorial shouldn't be explaining game mechanics - especially as complex as tracking or fitting ships. These should be explained on the game's webpage in a quick guide, and then in great detail through manuals and gameplay guides.

(Going off on a tangent here, but still related to the NPE - these kind of things are ridiculously difficult to get to from eveonline.com. Personally along with the links "One universe", "The Sandbox" etc. at the top I would add one for "Guides" or "Game Mechanics" or something.)

Quite often showing too much is even worse than showing too little. If the game doesn't explain a mechanic, the player looks for another source of this information. But if the tutorial provides a half-arsed explanation, the player is under the impression that he already understands it, and is content with what he knows. However in fact his understanding is lacking at best and misguided at worst.

The tutorial also shouldn't be explaining how to do things efficiently - as in, how to fit your ships, how to run missions, etc. This is something for the player to explore and discover by themselves. Trying to imprint a certain way of doing things to people early on has the same negative effects as I pointed out above (lack of detail leading to misguided understanding), but also ruins the sense of discovery, trying various approaches and seeing what works - basically everything that makes a game a game, and not just following a set of instructions you read off the screen.

This is not about making the game more difficult for the sake of it being difficult (or conversely easier for the sake of being easier). The information should be readily available,but it shouldn't be forced onto the player in bits and pieces however CCP thinks is the best. I don't like being told by an NPC to fit a web and use it on another NPC. I want to read a little about what webs do, why is it a good idea to use one, and when should one be used.

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#143 - 2012-07-31 09:52:40 UTC
Im amazed how well structured you aproach has been... Hat off for not making any changes to the game "because you think so" and instead actually test it with real people :-)

I have 1 small petty thing about the module tool tip for guns:
Optimal within x meters - okay
Falloff within x meters - Shouldn't this be falloff AT x meters

Also consider the order of those - I would like charge instealled first, then optimal and then falloff
I would be carefull about stating dps. average potential dps might be too long but think about it ;.)

Excellent work - When you get it done with a silk smooth female voice over I might do my tutorial again after these 6-7 years hehe
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2012-07-31 10:26:36 UTC
Lost Hamster wrote:
Would be interested to see, how many people quit after seeing the awful inventory system. What?


nope, new players like it better, sorry only old vets enjoyed windows 3.1 ui over windows 7

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2012-07-31 10:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
Thanks for all the comments. Especially from those who actually tried the new aura-tutorials on sisi.

I am taking lots of notes from these comments :)

edit: for a couple of questions -
We were given a short timeframe to get some awesome people, we had to pick where we could make the best impact. I would have loved to give the career agents a thorough workover, improve a lot of UI, etc. But we tried to hit the biggest problem areas.

Those who have tried the new tutorial will note the use of civvie modules while giving you a quick skill to learn to use the "full" modules in the next missions.

You might have also noticed an extra tab on the skills in your head - you can see what each level of a skill will allow you to use.


why not have basic skills inject and start at level 1? I'm honestly just curious what the goal is to make players train these skills instead of starting them out with them?

answered

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Vegare
Bitslix
Lolsec Fockel
#146 - 2012-07-31 10:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Vegare
devblog wrote:
you can now use Back and Next to page through the entire string with no breaks or restrictions.

IMO this will lead to a lot of confusion.

The new player will never know if he actually did everything right or not when clicking 'Next'.

Worse is, before recognising that there are no restrictions, he will have the impression of having done everyting correctly even if he hasn't just because he can go to the next page of the tutorial. He will then end up in a dead end where the tutorial text does not match his actual progression soon. This is totally different from every other game tutorial out there...
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#147 - 2012-07-31 10:50:49 UTC
Logix42 wrote:
You say in the devblog players prefer the right-click method. However in step 19 of the tutorial you say
"To look at a ship or other object in space, select it, and use the the Look At button in Selected Item, which looks like an eye."

Either change this to right click instructions, or add a pointer, pointing to the eye on the selected item panel.


...whoops.

Morigan Omega wrote:
Do the gun/ammo tool tips include skill/implant modifiers in optimal/falloff/dps numbers? I would assume so, but you know what they say about assuming...


They should be pulling the actual current stats off the module in question, so yes.

Che Biko wrote:
I'm not sure if this is an issue you also encountered, or it was just me messing up the tutorial because I just wanted to show a friend the game and rushed through it but I made a fresh Amarr character on TQ and started the tutorial.

I was given an armor repairer that I needed to use, but I did not have the skill for.
And it didn't help that I had lost half my armor while blowing up a structure, so I was kinda 'stuck' in the tutorial, as I could not tank the...enemies.

I resorted to canflipping in an effort to pay for the skillbook.


The existing tutorial on TQ has a bug where this skill doesn't always drop, yeah. Shouldn't be present in the new one.

Logix42 wrote:
Section 23: Additional Reading should not include medical clones. Corporations and skills are fine to talk about while your ship is auto-piloting to a station but the medical clones bit should be saved until the player is IN a station. It is more relevant there, where they can actually upgrade their clone while they read that bit of the tutorial. Having them read it while flying in space is a recipe for forgetting and then them cursing you when they die and lose skill points.


New players are going to have neither the money nor the need to upgrade their clone at this point, so I think it's kinda a moot point. We put the additional reading in to fill time while you travel; if we don't mention clones there we're not mentioning them elsewhere as we don't want to break up the actual learning stages with irrelevant info, and we feel that it's better to mention them than not Smile

Obsidiana wrote:
Request: On the agent menu "Add Waypoint" would be nice to have if the mission is in another system.


Already does that Smile

Logix42 wrote:
Ok before I go any further, it really looks like the advance tutorials, the ones for the career agents have not been updated, before I go scrutinizing them could I get a dev response as to whether they've actually been updated? No point in me dissecting them if there are changes soon to come


Yup, career paths have not been touched.

Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
CCP is just figuring this out now?

After all of the constructive feedback on the Inventory re-vamp regarding conventional computer user-interface interactions and well thought-out posts on why the removal of right-click access to various hangars was terribly detrimental to game-play....

And CCP took the word of volunteer testers over the word of loyal customers regarding value of right-click contextual menus. Words fail me at this point.

Edit: Does the new tutorial content include information and a walk-through on how to most efficiently use the re-vamped Inventory UI elements?


Please see this post and understand the context in which that statement was made: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1720042#post1720042

(This is in no way at all about the inventory.)

Kyrin Ongrard wrote:
While i havent done the caldari tutorial before, one of the BIGGEST things that was confusing to me was how missile "range works". I think one thing that NEEDS to be explained in ALL the tutorials is how flight time and missile speed work together to get your that range you can hit out to. I was maybe 3 months into eve the first time i used rockets and it confused the hell out of me to have to figure out how flight time and speed and all that worked together, especially after basicly being trained to think in terms of optimal and falloff for normal guns and then not have a set number with missils/rockets.


Hopefully having range info in the new tooltip mitigates a lot of this trouble without having to actually explain it.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Quote:
...and some bad spots (most notably the bit right at the very start where we try to teach the skill queue before you've even undocked)

Your solution is to eliminate it .. hmmmmm. What one does when dealing with noobs children new comers who exhibit disinterest in something that will ultimately help them is to play into their natural curiosity but not forcefully. Introduce the skills as normal (assuming the bad spot doesn't extend that far) and rest assured that they will poke around until they press the queue button .. at which point you can tell them there is a guide available should they want/need it (you can use one of those fancy new pop-ups!) .. most like figuring stuff out themselves though.
[quote]...This experience led us to rework our teaching throughout the tutorial to use right-click and the context menu, which subsequent testing confirmed as a much smoother experience.

If a child refuses to eat nothing but pizza, the absolutely worst thing one can do is to let the little bastard eat nothing but pizza Smile. Yes, the context menu has improved a lot since I started out .. to the point of usefulness even .. but to base the entire introduction to Eve on nothing but will come back and bite you very, very hard as said usefulness is dwarfed by the keys and key+click combos used in competitive Eve gameplay. The right-click will always be there as PC users are very well acquainted with the "when in doubt, R. click" dogma so keep working on the menus to make them...
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#148 - 2012-07-31 10:54:24 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
Thanks for all the comments. Especially from those who actually tried the new aura-tutorials on sisi.

I am taking lots of notes from these comments :)

edit: for a couple of questions -
We were given a short timeframe to get some awesome people, we had to pick where we could make the best impact. I would have loved to give the career agents a thorough workover, improve a lot of UI, etc. But we tried to hit the biggest problem areas.

Those who have tried the new tutorial will note the use of civvie modules while giving you a quick skill to learn to use the "full" modules in the next missions.

You might have also noticed an extra tab on the skills in your head - you can see what each level of a skill will allow you to use.


why not have basic skills inject and start at level 1? I'm honestly just curious what the goal is to make players train these skills instead of starting them out with them?


We have to teach players to train skills some time. We feel that starting off in this way, with a really clear "look, train this skill and in five minutes you'll be able to do something new" is the strongest way to link cause and effect for skill training.

Vegare wrote:
devblog wrote:
you can now use Back and Next to page through the entire string with no breaks or restrictions.

IMO this will lead to a lot of confusion.

The new player will never know if he actually did everything right or not when clicking 'Next'.

Worse is, before recognising that there are no restrictions, he will have the impression of having done everyting correctly even if he hasn't just because he can go to the next page of the tutorial. He will then end up in a dead end where the tutorial text does not match his actual progression soon. This is totally different from every other game tutorial out there...


Ideally we'd have the entire tutorial based on a trigger system where it auto-progresses every time you finish the current task, but that'd involve custom code triggers for every single page and we just did not remotely have time to do that. We feel that the current solution is better than the half-way house of some things having auto-advance triggers, some things not letting you progress until you do something, and some things not enforcing it either way. It's not optimal but it is consistent.
Vegare
Bitslix
Lolsec Fockel
#149 - 2012-07-31 11:16:52 UTC
Thanks alot for all the feedback on the feedback! Smile
Yatta Vyatta Usoko
ORE Propaganda Society
#150 - 2012-07-31 11:19:27 UTC
Zed Jackelope wrote:
Quote:
Voiceovers are gone for now.... Until such time as we can get a really good text-to-speech implementation (which we are actively looking at), they're out.


No, No, No, No, NO!

You call Caroline Dalton up and you bring her right on back.

This is something I don't mind seeing my RL bucks being spent on.



Yes Yes - bring her voice back.. she was perfect!! i'loved her voice in 2006...
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#151 - 2012-07-31 11:28:09 UTC
Yatta Vyatta Usoko wrote:
Zed Jackelope wrote:
Quote:
Voiceovers are gone for now.... Until such time as we can get a really good text-to-speech implementation (which we are actively looking at), they're out.


No, No, No, No, NO!

You call Caroline Dalton up and you bring her right on back.

This is something I don't mind seeing my RL bucks being spent on.



Yes Yes - bring her voice back.. she was perfect!! i'loved her voice in 2006...


OMG, pretty please!? I miss the old Aura so much ... even though she didn't have any thumbs ... Sad

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.

Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#152 - 2012-07-31 12:03:30 UTC
Hey CCP Greyscale, why not use that massive TV screen you have in the Captains Quarters to display tutorial videos? New players can select a video and watch it in game.

Keep up the good work.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 

CCP Sisyphus
C C P
C C P Alliance
#153 - 2012-07-31 12:09:29 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Hey CCP Greyscale, why not use that massive TV screen you have in the Captains Quarters to display tutorial videos? New players can select a video and watch it in game.

Keep up the good work.


We tried that. Works nice enough, but there were problems then with translation, and making the screen into a real media player (pause, replay, etc)...

CCP Sisyphus | Team TriLambda | Team Klang | @CCP_Sisyphus

Qjuwert III
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#154 - 2012-07-31 12:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Qjuwert III
Nice ideas! Perhaps they will help me convince even more people to join me in my quest for ISK.

Those dead-sexy in-space pointers are a great idea, they should really be used for stuff like mission objectives and waypoints too. (with the option of toggling the feature on/off for those who wouldn't like it) Maybe with diffrent color codes depending on what generated the pointer. Like that green for Tutorials, Blue for Missions, Yellow for Waypoints etc.
I'd be a nice way to reinforce the notion of movement in space that the new nebulas created. You can se where you are and you can see you destination somewhere around you. It would probably be more effective if it could allow you to se the location your mission objective wants you to warp too, in space.

I don't hate the Overview at all. It reinforces the sense of being in command of a ship. Sometimes I'd like ot feel more like a pilot though. Like when I'm flying in a small ship. Those of my frinds that have been unable to stick with the game "past the tutorial" have all felt that they didnt feel like pilots of a spaceship, but "players of a videogame" giving instructions to a ship. Having great visuals ain't all that great if the game does not encourage you too look around you in space, but simply input a command.

And perhaps the ability to easily lock your camera at a certain angle to your ship would be a welcomed addition. Allowing you to always look at your ship at the same angle, instead of from the same angle. The 3rd person view found in so many action-flight games. Just because you dont control your ship directly with a joystick or or mouse+keyboard, doesnt mean the game cant invoke that same visual sense of being in the heat of battle that other games have. (The new turret/missile effects looks reallistic enough for this visual presentation of the game.
I'm certain that many players would appreciate their "Frigate hull" piloting experience to focus more on their ship moving gracefully around space, with the barrages from their opponents flying past them from a more "in touch with the ship" perspective. And some battleship pilots might appreciate an easy way to always look at their sexy-battleship-of-destruction from a certain angle, where their ship looks mighty, their weapons firing deadly barrages with a cinematic feel, and their shields absorbing incomming fire. (Wasn't new shield visuals on the table?)
Camera angles and controls could do a lot to present the great visuals that EVE has, and I dont think it would be that hard to implement a "lock camera possition & angle" button. Perhaps with the option of binding a key.

Edit: Most of these suggestions would be for mission runners and such, no time to "enjoy the view" when being hot-dropped in 0.0 or otherwise engaged in serious buisness.
Scaugh
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2012-07-31 12:39:06 UTC
I got to ask you devs if there is a tutorial planned on how it is intended for players to use the Uni. Inv.

Currently I'm so confused with which Uni. Inv. is actually open. Can you explain is it the primary, secondary, tertiary etc.... window which I've opened and I would open such windows.

I'm away at the moment and wont get to try out these SiSi changes. Cry
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2012-07-31 13:06:38 UTC
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Hey CCP Greyscale, why not use that massive TV screen you have in the Captains Quarters to display tutorial videos? New players can select a video and watch it in game.

Keep up the good work.


We tried that. Works nice enough, but there were problems then with translation, and making the screen into a real media player (pause, replay, etc)...


why would you need to pause play it?

or this is maybe something your working on? >.> <.<

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Terje Teinturier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2012-07-31 13:28:47 UTC
It would be nice if players could add some custom "dead-sexy in-space pointers" in-game, as an "easy" way to extend cinematic options for video creators. It would promote homogeneity among player generated content.
Rattus Norwegius
#158 - 2012-07-31 14:04:47 UTC
Hoshi wrote:
Tric Starless wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
Question: Why is falloff listed before optimal range on the weapon tool tip?
See responses here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1720061#post1720061 and here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1720165#post1720165 Note that this isn't "falloff" but "falloff range", which is optimal + 1x falloff.


Then just label it "Maximum Range". Clear. Concise. Not EASILY ameniable to misinterpretation like the current phrasing.

Clarity is good. Maximum Range is better :)

But it's not maximum range, just the range where you do 50% damage which is a good guideline to what range you should usually try to keep inside. Maximum range is Optimal + 2x Falloff.
Calling it something that it's not is not better.


It's not "falloff" either though..

How about "Effective range"? It is quite intuitive: "My gun can shoot further than this, but this is the maximum range it will be effective at." It even have the advantage of being a common military term for, well.. just this, really. Big smile
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#159 - 2012-07-31 14:23:15 UTC
Rattus Norwegius wrote:
Hoshi wrote:
Tric Starless wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
Question: Why is falloff listed before optimal range on the weapon tool tip?
See responses here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1720061#post1720061 and here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1720165#post1720165 Note that this isn't "falloff" but "falloff range", which is optimal + 1x falloff.
Then just label it "Maximum Range". Clear. Concise. Not EASILY ameniable to misinterpretation like the current phrasing.

Clarity is good. Maximum Range is better :)
But it's not maximum range, just the range where you do 50% damage which is a good guideline to what range you should usually try to keep inside. Maximum range is Optimal + 2x Falloff.
Calling it something that it's not is not better.
It's not "falloff" either though..

How about "Effective range"? It is quite intuitive: "My gun can shoot further than this, but this is the maximum range it will be effective at." It even have the advantage of being a common military term for, well.. just this, really. Big smile
Thanks for the suggestion, we'll think about it.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#160 - 2012-07-31 14:54:31 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Rattus Norwegius wrote:
How about "Effective range"? It is quite intuitive: "My gun can shoot further than this, but this is the maximum range it will be effective at." It even have the advantage of being a common military term for, well.. just this, really. Big smile
Thanks for the suggestion, we'll think about it.


I second this. If you have Optimal Range, Effective Range and Maximum Range, the relation between them all is intuitive.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!