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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Dave Stark
#521 - 2012-07-30 06:41:36 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time.

This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game.

In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it.

Would you like me to show you the math?


i actually agree with this. we might have more crystals than there are types of ammo for a given weapon, however there is a much wider array of weapons than there are mining modules.
Herr Hammer Draken
#522 - 2012-07-30 10:22:27 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time.

This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game.

In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it.

Would you like me to show you the math?


But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class.
Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#523 - 2012-07-30 13:03:32 UTC
I tried the small selection of crystals again last night, it is really going to suck if these things do not get downsized.

Senex Legio
Royaldo
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch.
Clever Use of Neutral Toons
#524 - 2012-07-30 13:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Royaldo
so im getting 69 ice pr hour on mackinaw og 72 og hulk. this is without the ice harvester duration rigs, which im sure will stack with the upgrades meaning on the hulk you wont get more. mackinaw will be slightly better.
but its still a nerf compared to the 84 pr hour atm on tq.

this is with max rorqual and no implants on the miners.
Unit757
North Point
#525 - 2012-07-30 13:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Unit757
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time.

This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game.

In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it.

Would you like me to show you the math?


But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class.
Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones.


You clearly don't understand how a combat ship works, do you?

Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;)
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#526 - 2012-07-30 13:45:33 UTC
Noslen Nosilla wrote:
So the cargohold on all mining barges is 350m3 except the Covetor which still has the 500m3 cargohold.Oops all the exhumers have a 350m3 cargohold now.
T1 Crystals 15m3 now
T2 Crystals 25m3 now

You still can't fit more than 13 T2 crystals in the Hulk cargohold because you have to have the empty space of one crystal to change a crystal out.

Hmmm.


Barges/Exhumers should have 350 x # of turrets as their cargo bay. It makes the most sense and puts the ships on an even footing.

A lot of hi-sec hulks currently carry 35 T2 crystals, plus 15 T1 crystals, which was about 1800 m3 of space. With the smaller new T2 crystals, that means a 3-strip hulk needs about 950 m3 in cargo/crystal storage.

Not to mention that if you like to be organized, you were carrying your crystals in small/medium standard containers. One per type. So there needs to be enough space on the Hulk to carry (4) or (5) medium containers plus enough room to swap out a crystal. Because the auto-reload function on the strip miner had a very bad habit of grabbing a brand new crystal to use, when you already had a partially used crystal available in the cargo hold.

If you had (5) medium containers, you were using up 1625 m3 of space to carry (3) used and (4) new crystals per ore type.

So yes, the Hulk still needs to end up at around 1400-1500 m3 of cargo space. Or cut the T1 crystal size to 10 m3 and cut the T2 crystal size to 20 m3.
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
United Interests
#527 - 2012-07-30 14:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Noslen Nosilla
OK just got off SISI @ 2012.07.27 14:05...new build......NO CHANGES TO THE MINING SHIPS.Shocked


Let the flames begin. Twisted

Be polite.

Be professional.

But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Charlie Jacobson
#528 - 2012-07-30 14:07:58 UTC
I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live?

I support James 315 and the New Order of Highsec
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
United Interests
#529 - 2012-07-30 14:09:58 UTC
Charlie Jacobson wrote:
I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live?


the new mining frigate is a fall/winter release...when CCP does the rebalance to the racial "mining" frigates.

Be polite.

Be professional.

But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Charlie Jacobson
#530 - 2012-07-30 14:15:04 UTC
Noslen Nosilla wrote:
Charlie Jacobson wrote:
I couldn't find the new mining frigate on the test server. Are they keeping it a surprise until the patch goes live?


the new mining frigate is a fall/winter release...when CCP does the rebalance to the racial "mining" frigates.


D'oh! Okay, thanks. I must've misunderstood the announcements :(

I support James 315 and the New Order of Highsec
ugh zug
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#531 - 2012-07-30 20:47:50 UTC
CCP, while you're at the overhaul of the mining ships please consider making adjustments to the orca. a team of mining ships would have no problem filling the current orcas storage in no time at all, and if you don't have a hauler it makes for a very annoying interruption of mining bonuses.

consider reducing the cargo, and corp storage bays, and increasing the ore hold significantly.

consider allowing input to the ore hold from fleet members.

an extra high slot for a salvager, or probe launcher.

orca/roq defenses could use some buffs to go inline with the changes to the other mining vessels.

Want me to shut up? Remove content from my post,1B. Remove my content from a thread I have started 2B.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#532 - 2012-07-30 21:06:42 UTC
ugh zug wrote:
CCP, while you're at the overhaul of the mining ships please consider making adjustments to the orca. a team of mining ships would have no problem filling the current orcas storage in no time at all, and if you don't have a hauler it makes for a very annoying interruption of mining bonuses.

consider reducing the cargo, and corp storage bays, and increasing the ore hold significantly.

consider allowing input to the ore hold from fleet members.

an extra high slot for a salvager, or probe launcher.

orca/roq defenses could use some buffs to go inline with the changes to the other mining vessels.


Reduce the corp hold ONLY and ONLY IF the ore cargo becomes shared.

I already almost fill the full corp hold in one shot as is, if they reduce it I won't even be able to stuff all the minerals that come from the ships before I dragged it to the ore hold.

As for Orca defenses, they are not so bad, they only suck if you go full mega expand.

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Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#533 - 2012-07-30 23:14:04 UTC
Seems like the bonus's are broken for the rorq on sisi.

Senex Legio
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#534 - 2012-07-31 00:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurelius Valentius
Jake Rivers wrote:
CCP reduce the mining crystal to 1m3, or give me a good reason why they have to be so large.


Reason 1.
Just because.

Reason 2.
Because you would be happy, happiness makes CCP unhappy, therefore they decide to make you unhappy to be happy.

Reason 3.
Why not?

Reason 4.
Because logic and geometry are the foundations of western culture and being Icelandic, Thor didn't allow for them to be that size.

Reason 5.
PONIES!!!

Reason 6.
It would make sense to have them be smaller, but that leads to the counter result of Reason 2 and so cannot be allowed under any circumstances.

Reason 7.
The British East India Company says so.

Reason 8.
MORE PONIES!!!!

Reason 9.
See Reasons 1-8.

Reason 10.
LINK
Herr Hammer Draken
#535 - 2012-07-31 06:29:59 UTC
Unit757 wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
It needs to be said that miners have to train skills to level 4 to use t2 mining crystals. Each type of ore has its own skill which has to be trained to level 4 in order to use the coresponding t2 crystal. Do combat ships have to train a weapons skill to level 4 for each amo type? NO. The barrier to entry in warpships is the cargo bay size. The barrier to entry for mining crystals is the time required to train each skill to level 4. Time NOT spent training war ship skills. That is even more important in the grand scheme of things. In order to do A well means not doing B well for a long period of time.

This is a false equivlancy, once you train all of the ore processing types to level 4 you can effectivly use every tool to mine rocks in the game.

In order to use every tool to shoot people in the game you have to put WAY more SP into it.

Would you like me to show you the math?


But one never uses every tool to shoot someone in the game. At most you use maybe 3 tools, a gun type, a missle type and smart bomb on the same ship. And mining ships are classified as medium sized ships same as cruisers in size class.
Drones do not count as miners use them as well so both have to train drones.


You clearly don't understand how a combat ship works, do you?

Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;)


I have been training both side by side after doing both I can say for sure there are quite a bit more skills involved and longer time durations for mining than there are for weapons. My weapon skills are way ahead of my mining skills and I alternate between them.
One for weapons one for mining. Back and forth since day one. I can mount T2 weapons on my cruisers, But I can not mount any mining crystals yet. I just now am able to use T2 strips. I have 72 more skill levels to train to be able to mount all of the mining crystals.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Sigras
Conglomo
#536 - 2012-07-31 07:56:42 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Unit757 wrote:


Edit - oh, and just training just one type of medium weapon takes probably longer then it does for you to train all yourcprocessimg skills to 4. We have to train most of our skills to 5 to use t2 ;)


I have been training both side by side after doing both I can say for sure there are quite a bit more skills involved and longer time durations for mining than there are for weapons. My weapon skills are way ahead of my mining skills and I alternate between them.
One for weapons one for mining. Back and forth since day one. I can mount T2 weapons on my cruisers, But I can not mount any mining crystals yet. I just now am able to use T2 strips. I have 72 more skill levels to train to be able to mount all of the mining crystals.

Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume youre entirely perception/willpower specced otherwise you're doing it wrong.

To fit T2 strips, all it requires is mining 5 which is a rank 1 skill; if you compare all of the ores below kernite with small guns, kernite to spodumain to medium guns and ABC ores with large guns, you come out with
13 days 22 hours for all of the "small gun" ores (Veldspar to Omber)
17 days 22 hours more for all of the "medium gun" ores (Kernite to Spodumain)
22 days 5 hours more for all of the "large gun" ores (ABC)
32 days 9 hours more for all of the support skills to 5 (mining upgrades and Astrogeology)

Do you really want me to compare these numbers to training all of the gun skills?
Dave Stark
#537 - 2012-07-31 07:58:50 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Do you really want me to compare these numbers to training all of the gun skills?


at a glance that looks like an equal training time for one type of large weapon without any support skills...
Sigras
Conglomo
#538 - 2012-07-31 08:11:04 UTC
just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game
Dave Stark
#539 - 2012-07-31 08:13:09 UTC
Sigras wrote:
just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game


and not very well without decent support skills, although i guess we could equate those support skills to astrogeology, although that's one skill vs many.
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
United Interests
#540 - 2012-07-31 11:07:54 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Sigras wrote:
just about, actually slightly shorter for mining, but remember, once you train all of the mining crystals, you can use all of the crystals in the game. Once you train projectiles, you can use 1/3 of the guns in the game


and not very well without decent support skills, although i guess we could equate those support skills to astrogeology, although that's one skill vs many.



Basically we could say then that you have trained up to use the Strip Miner class of Gun. Bear

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Be professional.

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