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Barge Fairy Tale

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2381 - 2012-07-31 07:08:24 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

The Hulk does yield better than the other ships. It just takes a little bit of effort and support to do it. That's called balance.



Yes it yields better since 1 day ago.

Maybe because they listened to people not like you.

"Maximum Retriever ore hold is being nerfed slightly. nbd. Mack ore hold is also being nerfed a fair bit. That's probably a good decision. It was far too big. And it looks like the Hulk might be getting a 5% per level mining yield bonus instead of 3%, which is a really good change. That should push it past Mackinaw mining yield again."

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Pipa Porto
#2382 - 2012-07-31 07:09:30 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You just don't get it. Even in WoW they got the concept that if you have a min maxed setup, then that min maxed setup has to work better than the non min maxed setups. This is why they put simplified skill rotations on pure DPS classes. Any kind of slow down and hybrid classes and offspecs can compete with them and make them pointless.

Same for Exhumers. If it's more cumbersome to make an Hulk do work than an alternative, then it will be pointless.
If anything, it should be the other ships to be harder to setup and keep up to speed with their operation, not the Hulk.


"guys let me tell you how everything works in a terribly dumbed down game where losses have zero consequence"


Streamlined things work streamlined regardless of game and even out of game.

Just look at the descriptions: the Hulk should be the top of the line yet it's the other ships that get less handwork and are described as having efficient laser device that allow for 1 laser to be as good as 3.

If anything it should be a main property of the min maxed ship to be fast to use not of the AFK ones.


You don't seem to understand the purpose behind tiericide. The Hulk is not meant to be "the best." It is meant to be "the best in some situations" while the others are meant to be "the best in other situations."

The Hulk is not meant to be the "top of the line."

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#2383 - 2012-07-31 07:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

The Hulk does yield better than the other ships. It just takes a little bit of effort and support to do it. That's called balance.



Yes it yields better since 1 day ago.

Maybe because they listened to people not like you.

"Maximum Retriever ore hold is being nerfed slightly. nbd. Mack ore hold is also being nerfed a fair bit. That's probably a good decision. It was far too big. And it looks like the Hulk might be getting a 5% per level mining yield bonus instead of 3%, which is a really good change. That should push it past Mackinaw mining yield again."



It always was. 3% per level of Exhumer. Now it's 5%. The others never got that bonus.

It was ~20% before the increase to 5%, now it's more than 20%.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#2384 - 2012-07-31 07:12:51 UTC
Suddenly Forums ForumKings wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
From comments on Jester's blog: http://pastebin.com/fnuau8HH

Exec Summary: hulk is actually receiving a nerf to tank from current level.


  • Hulk
    • [+|n] shipBonusEmShieldResistanceORE3
    [+|n] shipBonusExplosiveShieldResistanceORE3
    [+|n] shipBonusKineticShieldResistanceORE3
    [+|n] shipBonusThermicShieldResistanceORE3
  • armorHP: 2300.0 => 1800.0
  • capacity: 500.0 => 350.0
  • hp: 2500.0 => 2000.0
  • requiredSkill1Level: 3.0 => 1.0
  • shieldCapacity: 2700.0 => 2200.0
  • shieldEmDamageResonance: 0.625 => 1.0
  • shieldExplosiveDamageResonance: 0.35 => 0.5
  • shieldKineticDamageResonance: 0.375 => 0.6
  • shieldThermalDamageResonance: 0.5 => 0.8
  • shipBonusORE3: -3.0 => -5.0

  • shieldEmDamageResonance: 0.625 => 1.0

    • WAIT, does that make it invincible to EM?

    resist% = 100 * (1 - resonance)

    What CCP is doing is taking the resist bonus and applying it separately to T1 resistances. Currently, the resists you see in the Hulk's show info window already take the 7.5% per level bonus into account.

    I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

    https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #2385 - 2012-07-31 07:18:07 UTC
    Pipa Porto wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    Richard Desturned wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    You just don't get it. Even in WoW they got the concept that if you have a min maxed setup, then that min maxed setup has to work better than the non min maxed setups. This is why they put simplified skill rotations on pure DPS classes. Any kind of slow down and hybrid classes and offspecs can compete with them and make them pointless.

    Same for Exhumers. If it's more cumbersome to make an Hulk do work than an alternative, then it will be pointless.
    If anything, it should be the other ships to be harder to setup and keep up to speed with their operation, not the Hulk.


    "guys let me tell you how everything works in a terribly dumbed down game where losses have zero consequence"


    Streamlined things work streamlined regardless of game and even out of game.

    Just look at the descriptions: the Hulk should be the top of the line yet it's the other ships that get less handwork and are described as having efficient laser device that allow for 1 laser to be as good as 3.

    If anything it should be a main property of the min maxed ship to be fast to use not of the AFK ones.


    You don't seem to understand the purpose behind tiericide. The Hulk is not meant to be "the best." It is meant to be "the best in some situations" while the others are meant to be "the best in other situations."

    The Hulk is not meant to be the "top of the line."


    Yes it's meant to be the best min maxed yield. As such every rough edges should be smoothed *for Hulk only* to allow it to do its job, unhindered.

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    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #2386 - 2012-07-31 07:20:00 UTC
    Pipa Porto wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    Pipa Porto wrote:

    The Hulk does yield better than the other ships. It just takes a little bit of effort and support to do it. That's called balance.



    Yes it yields better since 1 day ago.

    Maybe because they listened to people not like you.

    "Maximum Retriever ore hold is being nerfed slightly. nbd. Mack ore hold is also being nerfed a fair bit. That's probably a good decision. It was far too big. And it looks like the Hulk might be getting a 5% per level mining yield bonus instead of 3%, which is a really good change. That should push it past Mackinaw mining yield again."



    It always was. 3% per level of Exhumer. Now it's 5%. The others never got that bonus.

    It was ~20% before the increase to 5%, now it's more than 20%.


    It was situationally better in some things. Now it's better, period. As it should be.

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    Andre Jean Sarpantis
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #2387 - 2012-07-31 07:23:47 UTC
    To get all those Gankers still thinking Ganking has to be profitable, here again out from CCP Soundwave's pencil as Reminder lots of pages ago in this thread!


    CCP Soundwave wrote:


    Suicide ganking wasn't designed to be profitable, it's meant to be an option that let's you punish someone else at your expense. The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off and this change should bring that to a better spot. That said, the numbers can still be adjusted.



    Also......the changes doesn't mean Hulks and other Exhumers will be ungankable, YOU the gankers now will bring in more efforts to bring them down to your pleasure, if you can't adapt to this change, simply lookout for other Easier prey PERIOD.

    And actually seemingly CCP is listen to your damn whinning and screaming to CCP 'Foul' the actually changed some of their former changes back and make the Exhumers weaker again....so WHAT...you gankers won again now STFU and let this stupid thread come to an end!!

    sincerly

    Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed Nephew from the Serpentis Founder )
    Pipa Porto
    #2388 - 2012-07-31 07:24:08 UTC
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    Yes it's meant to be the best min maxed yield. As such every rough edges should be smoothed *for Hulk only* to allow it to do its job, unhindered.


    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    It was situationally better in some things. Now it's better, period. As it should be.



    You don't seem to understand the point of Tiericide. All the Exhumers are supposed to be better than the others in the situations they're designed for.

    EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

    -RubyPorto
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #2389 - 2012-07-31 07:26:52 UTC
    Andre Jean Sarpantis wrote:
    To get all those Gankers still thinking Ganking has to be profitable, here again out from CCP Soundwave's pencil as Reminder lots of pages ago in this thread!


    CCP Soundwave wrote:


    Suicide ganking wasn't designed to be profitable, it's meant to be an option that let's you punish someone else at your expense. The money you paid for a ship to gank with compared to the money lost by your target was completely off and this change should bring that to a better spot. That said, the numbers can still be adjusted.



    Also......the changes doesn't mean Hulks and other Exhumers will be ungankable, YOU the gankers now will bring in more efforts to bring them down to your pleasure, if you can't adapt to this change, simply lookout for other Easier prey PERIOD.

    And actually seemingly CCP is listen to your damn whinning and screaming to CCP 'Foul' the actually changed some of their former changes back and make the Exhumers weaker again....so WHAT...you gankers won again now STFU and let this stupid thread come to an end!!

    sincerly

    Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed Nephew from the Serpentis Founder )


    We will still be able to gank miners for a profit if they are bad at protecting themselves.Blink
    Mara Rinn
    Cosmic Goo Convertor
    #2390 - 2012-07-31 07:37:26 UTC
    Pipa Porto wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    Yes it's meant to be the best min maxed yield. As such every rough edges should be smoothed *for Hulk only* to allow it to do its job, unhindered.


    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    It was situationally better in some things. Now it's better, period. As it should be.



    You don't seem to understand the point of Tiericide. All the Exhumers are supposed to be better than the others in the situations they're designed for.


    The situation that VV is talking about is yield. The Skiff for tank, Mackinaw for solo mining to belt and back to station, the Hulk for maximum yield, sacrificing storage and tank.

    Day 0 Advice for New Players
    Pipa Porto
    #2391 - 2012-07-31 07:37:52 UTC
    Andre Jean Sarpantis wrote:
    To get all those Gankers still thinking Ganking has to be profitable, here again out from CCP Soundwave's pencil as Reminder lots of pages ago in this thread!


    Ganking isn't profitable unless the miners are complicit in their own demise.

    EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

    -RubyPorto
    Pipa Porto
    #2392 - 2012-07-31 07:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
    Mara Rinn wrote:
    Pipa Porto wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    Yes it's meant to be the best min maxed yield. As such every rough edges should be smoothed *for Hulk only* to allow it to do its job, unhindered.


    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    It was situationally better in some things. Now it's better, period. As it should be.



    You don't seem to understand the point of Tiericide. All the Exhumers are supposed to be better than the others in the situations they're designed for.


    The situation that VV is talking about is yield. The Skiff for tank, Mackinaw for solo mining to belt and back to station, the Hulk for maximum yield, sacrificing storage and tank.


    Yes, and with 3% per level, the hulk's got a lead in yield. With 5%, it's got a bigger one.

    VV is asking for a bigger hold and other buffs. Those are the "rough edges" she's been talking about. (Also something about Orca pilots being confused about colors and popups).

    EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

    -RubyPorto
    Mara Rinn
    Cosmic Goo Convertor
    #2393 - 2012-07-31 07:49:13 UTC
    Ah, in that case ignore VV since VV only mines once a year for lulz.

    The Hulk's ore bay only needs to be large enough for three cycles worth of ore from a max-bonused strip miner. Maybe four if the pilot is staggering lasers to buy time for a sandwich-making trip to the kitchen.

    Day 0 Advice for New Players
    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #2394 - 2012-07-31 07:49:28 UTC
    Pipa Porto wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    Yes it's meant to be the best min maxed yield. As such every rough edges should be smoothed *for Hulk only* to allow it to do its job, unhindered.


    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    It was situationally better in some things. Now it's better, period. As it should be.



    You don't seem to understand the point of Tiericide. All the Exhumers are supposed to be better than the others in the situations they're designed for.


    You don't seem to understand I am only and exclusively talking about the Hulk yield and since it gets all sorts of drawbacks (some smart, some less smart) then it HAS to be the best at it.

    If the micromanagement drawbacks are tiny then it has to be best but just by some margin, if the drawbacks are large then it has to be better by a larger margin, to make up for the efficiency loss at all the shuffling, changing and so on.

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    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #2395 - 2012-07-31 07:51:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
    Mara Rinn wrote:
    Ah, in that case ignore VV since VV only mines once a year for lulz.

    The Hulk's ore bay only needs to be large enough for three cycles worth of ore from a max-bonused strip miner. Maybe four if the pilot is staggering lasers to buy time for a sandwich-making trip to the kitchen.


    Saying what I say is not = ignoring me...

    Also, I mine whenever it's worth over other things I do (usually 1-2 periods of time a year) and certainly not for lulz.

    Also, I mine almost exclusively during Hulkageddons, guess why.

    Finally, I have been in in low sec and 0.0 mining ops fleets for prolonged times, it's not like I suddenly forget how it works just because I found new more profitable stuff to do most of the time.

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    Pipa Porto
    #2396 - 2012-07-31 07:56:48 UTC
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


    You don't seem to understand I am only and exclusively talking about the Hulk yield and since it gets all sorts of drawbacks (some smart, some less smart) then it HAS to be the best at it.

    If the micromanagement drawbacks are tiny then it has to be best but just by some margin, if the drawbacks are large then it has to be better by a larger margin, to make up for the efficiency loss at all the shuffling, changing and so on.


    The Drawbacks are tiny if you're in a fleet. The margin was ~20% and is now larger.

    EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

    -RubyPorto
    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #2397 - 2012-07-31 08:00:47 UTC
    Pipa Porto wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


    You don't seem to understand I am only and exclusively talking about the Hulk yield and since it gets all sorts of drawbacks (some smart, some less smart) then it HAS to be the best at it.

    If the micromanagement drawbacks are tiny then it has to be best but just by some margin, if the drawbacks are large then it has to be better by a larger margin, to make up for the efficiency loss at all the shuffling, changing and so on.


    The Drawbacks are tiny if you're in a fleet. The margin was ~20% and is now larger.


    No they aren't tiny and no the margin was not 20% better than a Mack. Else they would not have increased the margin itself.

    Imo they should have smoothed out menial tasks and not have given the margin buff but hey it's CCP's game, let them do their stuff. I am not going to put myself on a pire and roll over to force them to change the game like you guys do.

    (if it was for me I'd have just added few PG and CPU and improved T1 versions and left everything as is).

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    Dave Stark
    #2398 - 2012-07-31 08:02:53 UTC
    Mara Rinn wrote:
    Ah, in that case ignore VV since VV only mines once a year for lulz.

    The Hulk's ore bay only needs to be large enough for three cycles worth of ore from a max-bonused strip miner. Maybe four if the pilot is staggering lasers to buy time for a sandwich-making trip to the kitchen.

    i've said it before and i'll say it again; if you want to go afk do other things, fly a mackinaw not a hulk.
    Pipa Porto
    #2399 - 2012-07-31 08:12:19 UTC
    Mara Rinn wrote:
    Ah, in that case ignore VV since VV only mines once a year for lulz.

    The Hulk's ore bay only needs to be large enough for three cycles worth of ore from a max-bonused strip miner. Maybe four if the pilot is staggering lasers to buy time for a sandwich-making trip to the kitchen.



    Why more than 1? It's meant to run with hauler support. Either have it in the belt with you or accept the risk that comes with jet cans.

    EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

    -RubyPorto
    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #2400 - 2012-07-31 08:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
    Pipa Porto wrote:
    Mara Rinn wrote:
    Ah, in that case ignore VV since VV only mines once a year for lulz.

    The Hulk's ore bay only needs to be large enough for three cycles worth of ore from a max-bonused strip miner. Maybe four if the pilot is staggering lasers to buy time for a sandwich-making trip to the kitchen.



    Why more than 1? It's meant to run with hauler support. Either have it in the belt with you or accept the risk that comes with jet cans.


    Because the hauler needs continuously to run off and unload?

    Try yourself managing 3 Hulks and 1 indy or something (it IS a fleet already, not everyone have 2 Orcas for your fantasy world theorycraft). The indy gets continuously full, the Hulks won't be synchronized in their cycles (maybe if you bot? But we are not catering to botters right?) so you'll always end with an Hulk at half cycle one at 2/3 and the Hauler has to go dump.

    Jet can mining is a crutch "invented" by players, CCP did not even mean it.
    Making a whole ship line rely on a crutch that make them less efficient than AFK other ships is a nonsense.

    Hulk has to have enough room to grant uninterrupted operation in mining fleets, not all mining fleets have super duper support.
    AFK ships don't need any fleet, don't have any micromanagement endurance and they don't need to suffer any interruption.

    The end result is making AFK ships very competitive just because of the pointless burden imposed on the supposed min max one. It's pointless because emptying every short time does not make you a better player.

    It just makes you a better bot customer.

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