These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Barge Fairy Tale

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2361 - 2012-07-31 05:39:21 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


The Hulk does yield better than the other ships. It just takes a little bit of effort and support to do it. That's called balance.

The Mack Yields less, but it's really easy and convenient to use.
The Skiff Yields less, but it's really safe to use.

I still don't give a flying what Blizzard does with their game. There is nothing about that game that interests me.


I am interested in comparative games design, expecially of those who do certain things in a better way than EvE.

What you just wrote above is exactly why the Hulk is going to be not so good. On paper numbers clash with actual usability.
It can't be 500% better than the other ships, it's still comparable. A little micromanagement induced inefficiencies and it becomes barely better than the others while imposing sensible limitations and burdens and becomes just an exercise of self slaving into menial tasks.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Blastil
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#2362 - 2012-07-31 05:54:00 UTC
oh for gods sake, everyone is SERIOUSLY over-reacting to these changes

to the gankers: just because some base stats get changed, doesn't mean you will stop being able to gank people. It will simply mean that in highsec, a well fit, intelligent and supported pilot will be more comfortably be able to defend himself. This is fair, normal, and not even NEW. Just modified slightly. Additionally, the new ship changes are NOT AIMED AT MAKING HIGHSEC MINING MORE PROFITABLE. They are aimed at making 0.0 mining more profitable. I for one would like to see this because highsec mining is boring as **** for everyone, miners and pvp pilots included. Tougher exhumers means ease of access to high-end 0.0 ores, and a much cheaper selection of pvp ships, as well as more variety to 0.0 pvp than running into opposing gangs of falcons and drakes.

to the miners: You will not see and end to ganking. People will still do it, it is a profession, and it is fun. Your hulks will still die, don't expect CCP to fix that any time soon. Try keeping in mind that you are a valid target, and you must fit accordingly, or be destroyed.

I for one whole heartedly support CCP in this change, it is needed, and it will make the game much more fun for everyone, as new vistas of 0.0 industry take shape, hopefully making those otherwise desolate places of EVE full of activity and industry, and not just packs of ravenous wolves supported by highsec mining corps.
Pipa Porto
#2363 - 2012-07-31 06:26:22 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
If the Orca pilot cannot have the sense not to pick up a can that was flipped, they should be the ones kicked.

Also, with the new lag generating UI, its really hard to open a tractored can.


Also, you need some situational awareness if you don't notice someone warp in (exceptions being extremely crowded ice belts and station undocks). Takes about 3 whole seconds for them to do anything after they appear on the overview. And then they would have to approach the can, and flip it (another 2 seconds for the UI to react).


I always have been in extremely crowded ice belts and after 8 brain-wrecking hours of unloading stuff it's quite easy for an Orca pilot to warp back and not know somebody flipped it in his absence and take it.

I am always surprised of people (not just you but others in this thread) who pretend somebody can do the same stuff for 8 hours and then be ready and pristine for any sudden event like they just had a big sniff of lol-they-censored-it.

I feel like I am the only puny, mere human in this thread.


Being bright yellow instead of white and having a popup saying "do you really want to steal this" isn't enough of a hint for the Orca pilot?


Sure, but after many hours, and expecially if for any reason the warning got disabled, it becomes more and more possible.


So we now need to protect miners against their own fatigue and stupidity (for disabling the warning ever)?

It's BRIGHT YELLOW instead of White. After that, there's a big pop-up. If you lose your Orca because you disabled it (I don't know, because your mining buddy doesn't know how standings works or some stupidity like that), that is entirely your fault.

If TWO BIG Clues saying "something's wrong here" aren't enough to keep "realistic" Orca pilots alive, I honestly don't know what could. If you can't bother reading what a pop-up says (there are 3 pop-ups like it in HS. All three equal Death for an Orca Pilot), maybe the orca loss will wake you up.

Why should you get special protections against your own avoidable human error? Nobody else does. If you're that tired, go to bed.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2364 - 2012-07-31 06:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Blastil wrote:
oh for gods sake, everyone is SERIOUSLY over-reacting to these changes

to the gankers: just because some base stats get changed, doesn't mean you will stop being able to gank people. It will simply mean that in highsec, a well fit, intelligent and supported pilot will be more comfortably be able to defend himself. This is fair, normal, and not even NEW. Just modified slightly. Additionally, the new ship changes are NOT AIMED AT MAKING HIGHSEC MINING MORE PROFITABLE. They are aimed at making 0.0 mining more profitable. I for one would like to see this because highsec mining is boring as **** for everyone, miners and pvp pilots included. Tougher exhumers means ease of access to high-end 0.0 ores, and a much cheaper selection of pvp ships, as well as more variety to 0.0 pvp than running into opposing gangs of falcons and drakes.

to the miners: You will not see and end to ganking. People will still do it, it is a profession, and it is fun. Your hulks will still die, don't expect CCP to fix that any time soon. Try keeping in mind that you are a valid target, and you must fit accordingly, or be destroyed.

I for one whole heartedly support CCP in this change, it is needed, and it will make the game much more fun for everyone, as new vistas of 0.0 industry take shape, hopefully making those otherwise desolate places of EVE full of activity and industry, and not just packs of ravenous wolves supported by highsec mining corps.


you're entirely wrong here because nullsec mining is never done solo, it's done in fleets.

in their current SiSi state barges (besides the covetor/hulk) have such inflated HP numbers that they'll have far more EHP, unfit, than unfit fleet command ships (you know, the ones that fit links and are fit to tank a massive fleet, but can't do any DPS worth a damn) and even some tanked HACs.

the 'proper' change would have been to give them actual T2 resists and perhaps the ability to fit LSEs (via, say, a bonus that reduces the fitting requirements for LSEs) so that the decision between fitting for yield and a tank doesn't leave you with a useless tank (in the case of the Mackinaw) with gimped yield.

allowing them to have good 50-60k EHP tanks at the expense of yield would have been the right approach - it'd leave miners with more meaningful fitting choices, it'd give an advantage to miners who don't simply turn their mining lasers on and get off their computer to do their laundry and it wouldn't simply leave you with an idiot-proof ship - "here's a ship that has everything you need and you don't have to bother trying to fit it right, just fit strip miners and go"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Pipa Porto
#2365 - 2012-07-31 06:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


The Hulk does yield better than the other ships. It just takes a little bit of effort and support to do it. That's called balance.

The Mack Yields less, but it's really easy and convenient to use.
The Skiff Yields less, but it's really safe to use.

I still don't give a flying what Blizzard does with their game. There is nothing about that game that interests me.


I am interested in comparative games design, expecially of those who do certain things in a better way than EvE.

What you just wrote above is exactly why the Hulk is going to be not so good. On paper numbers clash with actual usability.
It can't be 500% better than the other ships, it's still comparable. A little micromanagement induced inefficiencies and it becomes barely better than the others while imposing sensible limitations and burdens and becomes just an exercise of self slaving into menial tasks.


It's 20+% better yield.

I don't know how drunk you are when you mine, but when I mined, when I was ATK, I could have been so drunk as to barely able to stand, but I could do my 1 action per 2.5m before the 2.5m timer for inefficiency caught me. Even easier, if you're that drunk, just right-click > Jettison cargo every time Ore appears and have a semi-sober Orca pilot tractor/scoop.

When I said "little bit of effort," what I really meant to say was 24 actions per hour.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2366 - 2012-07-31 06:33:11 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You just don't get it. Even in WoW they got the concept that if you have a min maxed setup, then that min maxed setup has to work better than the non min maxed setups. This is why they put simplified skill rotations on pure DPS classes. Any kind of slow down and hybrid classes and offspecs can compete with them and make them pointless.

Same for Exhumers. If it's more cumbersome to make an Hulk do work than an alternative, then it will be pointless.
If anything, it should be the other ships to be harder to setup and keep up to speed with their operation, not the Hulk.


"guys let me tell you how everything works in a terribly dumbed down game where losses have zero consequence"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#2367 - 2012-07-31 06:36:08 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
If the Orca pilot cannot have the sense not to pick up a can that was flipped, they should be the ones kicked.

Also, with the new lag generating UI, its really hard to open a tractored can.


Also, you need some situational awareness if you don't notice someone warp in (exceptions being extremely crowded ice belts and station undocks). Takes about 3 whole seconds for them to do anything after they appear on the overview. And then they would have to approach the can, and flip it (another 2 seconds for the UI to react).


I always have been in extremely crowded ice belts and after 8 brain-wrecking hours of unloading stuff it's quite easy for an Orca pilot to warp back and not know somebody flipped it in his absence and take it.

I am always surprised of people (not just you but others in this thread) who pretend somebody can do the same stuff for 8 hours and then be ready and pristine for any sudden event like they just had a big sniff of lol-they-censored-it.

I feel like I am the only puny, mere human in this thread.


Being bright yellow instead of white and having a popup saying "do you really want to steal this" isn't enough of a hint for the Orca pilot?


Sure, but after many hours, and expecially if for any reason the warning got disabled, it becomes more and more possible.


So we now need to protect miners against their own fatigue and stupidity (for disabling the warning ever)?

It's BRIGHT YELLOW instead of White. After that, there's a big pop-up. If you lose your Orca because you disabled it (I don't know, because your mining buddy doesn't know how standings works or some stupidity like that), that is entirely your fault.

If TWO BIG Clues saying "something's wrong here" aren't enough to keep "realistic" Orca pilots alive, I honestly don't know what could. If you can't bother reading what a pop-up says (there are 3 pop-ups like it in HS. All three equal Death for an Orca Pilot), maybe the orca loss will wake you up.

Why should you get special protections against your own avoidable human error? Nobody else does. If you're that tired, go to bed.

Don't forget what kind of player you're talking to here...

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2368 - 2012-07-31 06:45:12 UTC
many alliances have lost titans due to fatigued (or simply dumb) pilots clicking jump instead of bridge

i'm glad that CCP feels that you shouldn't be punished for such things anymore

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2369 - 2012-07-31 06:47:20 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
]I always have been in extremely crowded ice belts and after 8 brain-wrecking hours of unloading stuff it's quite easy for an Orca pilot to warp back and not know somebody flipped it in his absence and take it.

I am always surprised of people (not just you but others in this thread) who pretend somebody can do the same stuff for 8 hours and then be ready and pristine for any sudden event like they just had a big sniff of lol-they-censored-it.

I feel like I am the only puny, mere human in this thread.


The Orca pilot would be tired indeed to dismiss the can theft warning message. I have on the past lost ships to CONCORD due to mistaking "do you want to repair this NPC" for the "do you want to repair this guy who has an active wardec" warning. But why would you get the can flip warning and ignore it? Out of corp miners who leave fleet before you tractor their cans?


- The warning can be disabled for any reason (to me it happened because EvE ALT TABbing clients sometimes bugs and the UI responds oddly including moving the focus between buttons).

- If you jetcan in missions or grav sites, on reboot the cans become yellow and then it becomes more of a guesswork to find out whose can is it, expecially if there were NPC corp alts fleeted.

- if a fleet member gets disconnected sometimes all his stuff becomes yellow even on reconnect.

- there's something that I think it's a bug, where if you had an alt tabbed client (quite normal for multi-account play) the cans stay white even if they should not. I tend to keep a rat wreck in sight to see if this glitch happened but rat wrecks are not always there.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Pipa Porto
#2370 - 2012-07-31 06:47:22 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
many alliances have lost titans due to fatigued (or simply dumb) pilots clicking jump instead of bridge

i'm glad that CCP feels that you shouldn't be punished for such things anymore


The better alliances use their titans to try and Decloak Nyxes.

What a wonderful Christmas Present that was.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#2371 - 2012-07-31 06:52:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
- The warning can be disabled for any reason (to me it happened because EvE ALT TABbing clients sometimes bugs and the UI responds oddly including moving the focus between buttons).

- If you jetcan in missions or grav sites, on reboot the cans become yellow and then it becomes more of a guesswork to find out whose can is it, expecially if there were NPC corp alts fleeted.

- if a fleet member gets disconnected sometimes all his stuff becomes yellow even on reconnect.

- there's something that I think it's a bug, where if you had an alt tabbed client (quite normal for multi-account play) the cans stay white even if they should not. I tend to keep a rat wreck in sight to see if this glitch happened but rat wrecks are not always there.


Windowed mode > Alt-Tab. I've never seen any of these bugs ever.
Regardless, I know of no bug that checks the little box for you.

Then have him blue it first. Or have him set standings instead. Wrecks and Cans of people who have you listed at +10 (possibly also +5, not sure) are white to you.

Then Bug Report that.

Regardless, the central question is: Why should Orca pilots be protected from their incompetence in a way that nobody else in EVE is?

Oh, and when in doubt: Have everyone blue all their cans and have someone grab a frigate to flip anything that stays yellow.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2372 - 2012-07-31 06:56:49 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:

You are probably the last person who would want to 'lower the bar', make all Exhumers hard to gank.
Because you'll find your little operation swamped by AFK miners and bots and see your income per hour drop.

Suicide ganking is highly beneficial to miners who tank intelligently and take precautions.
Less ganking = less ships ships blowing up = less demand for minerals.
Less miner ganking = more miners = more minerals on the market = lower prices.



No, because of the very reason they are buffing the ships: done in moderation what you say is true but when you get industrialized, fully fledged organized gank ops roaming a constellation you can be ATK all you want but they'll just keep buzzing around you till they catch somebody in the fleet doing a slight mistake.

The day I stopped mining ice for this year we had 2 casual gankers (no real dangers) but also a Bat Country group who really did a scorched earth operation, it was just impossible to get to the belt without being immediately made target. After 30 minutes and lots of kills everybody docked and then it was just us and the gankers all around. It's just a matter of time before somebody falls under the pressure.

Sure it's possible to stop the op, move the super slow boats (not all fit in Orcas) whose PG won't even allow them to warp across systems in one shot. Hope nobody shots them at any gate. Move the freighters (another slowass ships). Go in a system where your standings won't let you refine well.

... and all the gankers have to do is to follow you in the new system, 1-2 fast ships per person, the rest in Orcas.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2373 - 2012-07-31 06:58:34 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

It's BRIGHT YELLOW instead of White. After that, there's a big pop-up. If you lose your Orca because you disabled it (I don't know, because your mining buddy doesn't know how standings works or some stupidity like that), that is entirely your fault.

If TWO BIG Clues saying "something's wrong here" aren't enough to keep "realistic" Orca pilots alive, I honestly don't know what could. If you can't bother reading what a pop-up says (there are 3 pop-ups like it in HS. All three equal Death for an Orca Pilot), maybe the orca loss will wake you up.

Why should you get special protections against your own avoidable human error? Nobody else does. If you're that tired, go to bed.


Because it bugs? Oh wait you don't have to deal with hundreds of these things a day so you did not even know.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Pipa Porto
#2374 - 2012-07-31 06:59:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
have to


I don't understand.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2375 - 2012-07-31 06:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
From comments on Jester's blog: http://pastebin.com/fnuau8HH

Exec Summary: hulk is actually receiving a nerf to tank from current level.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2376 - 2012-07-31 07:00:06 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Because it bugs? Oh wait you don't have to deal with hundreds of these things a day so you did not even know.


I have never encountered or heard of such a bug in the past 6 years.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2377 - 2012-07-31 07:01:30 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You just don't get it. Even in WoW they got the concept that if you have a min maxed setup, then that min maxed setup has to work better than the non min maxed setups. This is why they put simplified skill rotations on pure DPS classes. Any kind of slow down and hybrid classes and offspecs can compete with them and make them pointless.

Same for Exhumers. If it's more cumbersome to make an Hulk do work than an alternative, then it will be pointless.
If anything, it should be the other ships to be harder to setup and keep up to speed with their operation, not the Hulk.


"guys let me tell you how everything works in a terribly dumbed down game where losses have zero consequence"


Streamlined things work streamlined regardless of game and even out of game.

Just look at the descriptions: the Hulk should be the top of the line yet it's the other ships that get less handwork and are described as having efficient laser device that allow for 1 laser to be as good as 3.

If anything it should be a main property of the min maxed ship to be fast to use not of the AFK ones.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#2378 - 2012-07-31 07:02:37 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
From comments on Jester's blog: http://pastebin.com/fnuau8HH

Exec Summary: hulk is actually receiving a nerf to tank from current level.


  • Hulk
    • [+|n] shipBonusEmShieldResistanceORE3
    [+|n] shipBonusExplosiveShieldResistanceORE3
    [+|n] shipBonusKineticShieldResistanceORE3
    [+|n] shipBonusThermicShieldResistanceORE3
  • armorHP: 2300.0 => 1800.0
  • capacity: 500.0 => 350.0
  • hp: 2500.0 => 2000.0
  • requiredSkill1Level: 3.0 => 1.0
  • shieldCapacity: 2700.0 => 2200.0
  • shieldEmDamageResonance: 0.625 => 1.0
  • shieldExplosiveDamageResonance: 0.35 => 0.5
  • shieldKineticDamageResonance: 0.375 => 0.6
  • shieldThermalDamageResonance: 0.5 => 0.8
  • shipBonusORE3: -3.0 => -5.0

  • shieldEmDamageResonance: 0.625 => 1.0

    • WAIT, does that make it invincible to EM?
    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #2379 - 2012-07-31 07:03:48 UTC
    Pipa Porto wrote:
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    - The warning can be disabled for any reason (to me it happened because EvE ALT TABbing clients sometimes bugs and the UI responds oddly including moving the focus between buttons).

    - If you jetcan in missions or grav sites, on reboot the cans become yellow and then it becomes more of a guesswork to find out whose can is it, expecially if there were NPC corp alts fleeted.

    - if a fleet member gets disconnected sometimes all his stuff becomes yellow even on reconnect.

    - there's something that I think it's a bug, where if you had an alt tabbed client (quite normal for multi-account play) the cans stay white even if they should not. I tend to keep a rat wreck in sight to see if this glitch happened but rat wrecks are not always there.


    Windowed mode > Alt-Tab. I've never seen any of these bugs ever.
    Regardless, I know of no bug that checks the little box for you.



    I have already it bug reported, they have fixed other glitches in the past but this one it's stil there.
    I can only imagine it's due to the interaction between EvE window mode and the video card drivers but then, all I can do is to have the latest drivers and they still have that.

    EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
    Mara Rinn
    Cosmic Goo Convertor
    #2380 - 2012-07-31 07:05:45 UTC
    You took the time to copy/paste, but not to read.

    RESONANCE is the OPPOSITE OF RESISTANCE. Thus 100% resonance = 0% resistance. Then multiply the 25% resist bonus for Exhumers 5 (which is actually 0.85 resonance). But that gets cancelled out by stacking nerfs.

    Day 0 Advice for New Players