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Barge Fairy Tale

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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2321 - 2012-07-30 21:58:54 UTC
look at the baddies in this thread who think that the game is balanced around cost lmao

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2322 - 2012-07-30 22:01:52 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
JamesCLK wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
an instacane does not use tracking computers


I have no idea what I'm doing (you're right)!

[Hurricane, Instacane]

Counterbalanced Weapon Mounts I
Counterbalanced Weapon Mounts I
Counterbalanced Weapon Mounts I
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M

Medium Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I

Locks a Catalyst in 1 second.
A direct hit alphas an untanked Catalyst.

Can I have a gold star now?


Not enough dps to destroy that Catalyst.


Try this.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2323 - 2012-07-30 22:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
JamesCLK wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
an instacane does not use tracking computers


I have no idea what I'm doing (you're right)!


Can I have a gold star now?


I prefer 425mm or 650s ACs on a Nado. Sure it takes 2 shots to kill a Catalyst, but you get a shot every 2 seconds and change (call it 3s). You'll end up killing more Catalysts over the course of the 20s gank. (3 instead of 2)


That's why I was saying I have not seen anti-gank arty setups in the posts above.


Anyway this is another arty setup, volley = 3886 in ideal conditions, DPS = 425 at 23km even without good transversal (it's not like gankers will align nicely for you to kill them easy).
Unlike the above, this setup won't entice gankers to just come suicide the 'cane. Blink
Ofc feel free to replace survival mods with more scan res.


[Hurricane, Instacane]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma M
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II

Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I
Medium Targeting System Subcontroller I
Medium Projectile Metastasis Adjuster I


Hobgoblin II x5 (of course it's not for the gankers, just to kill rats)


so yeah you haven't figured out ship fittings beyond the "swiss army knife" school of pubbie fittings

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Of course the above is just a testament at how a combat ship is super-flexible, can still have 37K EHP *without* all V skills, super fast lock and big burst. No need for exotic implants or whatever odd crap as well.

All flexibility and power that mining ships don't have.


so why don't miners switch to hurricanes since they're so flexible

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Korsiri
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2324 - 2012-07-30 22:11:46 UTC
/yawn

tell us another bedtime story daddy
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2325 - 2012-07-30 22:14:34 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
RF EMP does 3879 damage per Volley.
Suicide Catalyst has 3764 EHP vs EMP.


Only if you somehow get perfect shot. It's often only 2600-2800 per volley.


That's equally true of Catalysts and ganking Hulks. Why do Catalysts get the protection of "not always a perfect shot" and Hulks don't?

Oh, and there are better Cane fits for ganking GCC Catalysts.


Hulks are 99% stationary and big targets. Arty setups damage drops heavily with a smidge of transversal, when I engage anything at > 80 transversal I know it will get a lot (not just 5% less) damage. It's why when the CFC guy suggested an arty cane I objected against it.

Also, catalysts unless in high enough sec, sometimes have enough spare time to pod the mining ship pilot, this is how much of an hardship they have to endure.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2326 - 2012-07-30 22:20:15 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

The new SISI Hulk has a higher yield. 5% bonus from Exhumers instead of 3%. Even if it didn't, if you're in a fleet with hauler support (y'know, the situation it's designed for), the higher yield means it yields more than the other two. If you want a cargo hold because you don't have hauler support, use a Mackinaw (y'know, the ship designed for that situation).

Right now, on SISI, the Mack has enough EHP that it can't be profitably ganked even with MLUs (in fact, it would be fairly expensive to gank). That makes the Skiff worthless.


No, unlike in your dreams, mining fleets tend to have an Orca or 2 not haulers that won't be able to unload minerals fast enough before the Orcas are full.
Mining fleets - expecially multi Orca ones - tend to be cross corporation as well, so the pilots not in the Orca's corp can't take anything from the Orcas including crystals.


And once again, if Hulk is the streamlined min maxer then it should be easier to streamline it than the other ships. As of now it's actually easier to streamline the other 2 ships than the Hulk.

Even the lack of cargo hold goes in the way, when the Orca goes to unload they won't have the room to hold the stuff until the Orca is back. A current Mack (not Sisi, even today's Macks) has enough hold for that.

SiSi Hulk is a step down for practical mining, not a step up.

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Pipa Porto
#2327 - 2012-07-30 22:24:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
RF EMP does 3879 damage per Volley.
Suicide Catalyst has 3764 EHP vs EMP.


Only if you somehow get perfect shot. It's often only 2600-2800 per volley.


That's equally true of Catalysts and ganking Hulks. Why do Catalysts get the protection of "not always a perfect shot" and Hulks don't?

Oh, and there are better Cane fits for ganking GCC Catalysts.


Hulks are 99% stationary and big targets. Arty setups damage drops heavily with a smidge of transversal, when I engage anything at > 80 transversal I know it will get a lot (not just 5% less) damage. It's why when the CFC guy suggested an arty cane I objected against it.

Also, catalysts unless in high enough sec, sometimes have enough spare time to pod the mining ship pilot, this is how much of an hardship they have to endure.


Hulks could easily simply Orbit the roid they're mining. Would make ganking them a lot harder.

Any time I've ganked, I've had time to land, get my group on the Hulk at ~300m, stop our ships, then BAM. That's all because the Hulk never moves. Not one inch. You still don't get full perfect damage (which is what you need to solo an untanked Hulk with a Meta Catalyst). We sit still throughout the gank to maximize our DPS. If we started moving, our DPS would drop too.

Anyway, I prefer the AC Nado, like I said. I just object to Jorma putting up a double standard. You don't get to assume the Hulk gets 100% damage applied to it, but the Catalyst doesn't (and if you're at the right range, you'll get enough).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2328 - 2012-07-30 22:24:56 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mining fleets - expecially multi Orca ones - tend to be cross corporation as well, so the pilots not in the Orca's corp can't take anything from the Orcas including crystals


why do miners feel that they need to all be in their personal tax dodging corps

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#2329 - 2012-07-30 22:27:28 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
Oh he mad.


But is he wrong?

Nope.

Fitted properly, a Hulk cannot be profitably suicide ganked.


Fixed, you can still kill hulks if you leave high sec...

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2330 - 2012-07-30 22:27:48 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
That's equally true of Catalysts and ganking Hulks. Why do Catalysts get the protection of "not always a perfect shot" and Hulks don't?

Oh, and there are better Cane fits for ganking GCC Catalysts.


Catalyst can orbit hulk @ 2 km/s and still hit perfectly. When you try to hit that Catalyst with artillery you have very low chance to hit perfectly.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#2331 - 2012-07-30 22:28:07 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mining fleets - expecially multi Orca ones - tend to be cross corporation as well, so the pilots not in the Orca's corp can't take anything from the Orcas including crystals


why do miners feel that they need to all be in their personal tax dodging corps


And why won't they stay in them when they get wardecced?
I don't get it.

I thought wardecs were supposed to allow this kind of thing. Shocked
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2332 - 2012-07-30 22:29:16 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:


What a load. While I can only speak for myself, I know for a fact that 'recycling' suicide alts is highly uncommon, and a massive waste. Why flush all that SP down the toilet for a few points of sec status?


I was not the one who brought the recycling thing. I just stated how anyone with some brain cells can biomass with some smarts without being caught.


Herr Wilkus wrote:

-My main undocked all the time in a 2.5 B ISK Vargur to repair sec status, with literally dozens of extant Kill Rights.
Miners don't really scare me, watching local takes very little effort, and ECM Drones took care of the odd lolambush attempt.


What fear should you have, when those you kill have probably zero SP in any kind of weaponry?


Herr Wilkus wrote:

-10 Buck Futz has around 500M in implants. (5%s really helped optimize the Tornado for boomeranging, no need now tho)


You are one of few, since I am there to see some gankers getting podded (till 3 months ago I "co-operated" with an defender merc corp) they resulted implant-less or had some +2 and similar.


Herr Wilkus wrote:

-'Circumvent?' What are you talking about, those are the rules, we play by them like everyone else.

-Why keep him in station, when you can keep him in a high-sec POS, works much better.


Circumvent the consequences of doing it on your main. Again, you might be the 1% who does not care, but all the others are scared wussies who use low SP dedicated alts and hide their main.

About POS: most gankers don't do that. They hop around systems.



Herr Wilkus wrote:

-You don't need kill rights to shoot a -10, ship or pod - , dum dum.


Did I say it was needed? No. I only said that getting kill rights on the ganker is pointless as he'll quickly get in, unload, warp away.

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Pipa Porto
#2333 - 2012-07-30 22:29:52 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

The new SISI Hulk has a higher yield. 5% bonus from Exhumers instead of 3%. Even if it didn't, if you're in a fleet with hauler support (y'know, the situation it's designed for), the higher yield means it yields more than the other two. If you want a cargo hold because you don't have hauler support, use a Mackinaw (y'know, the ship designed for that situation).

Right now, on SISI, the Mack has enough EHP that it can't be profitably ganked even with MLUs (in fact, it would be fairly expensive to gank). That makes the Skiff worthless.


No, unlike in your dreams, mining fleets tend to have an Orca or 2 not haulers that won't be able to unload minerals fast enough before the Orcas are full.
Mining fleets - expecially multi Orca ones - tend to be cross corporation as well, so the pilots not in the Orca's corp can't take anything from the Orcas including crystals.


And once again, if Hulk is the streamlined min maxer then it should be easier to streamline it than the other ships. As of now it's actually easier to streamline the other 2 ships than the Hulk.

Even the lack of cargo hold goes in the way, when the Orca goes to unload they won't have the room to hold the stuff until the Orca is back. A current Mack (not Sisi, even today's Macks) has enough hold for that.

SiSi Hulk is a step down for practical mining, not a step up.


Ok, you know what an Orca is? It's a giant hauler. I said "Hauler Support," not necessarily Itty V support.

The cross corporation issue is easy. Drop a jetcan. Fill it with crystals. Done.

Use Jetcans to buffer if you have a Solo Orca doing hauling for you. A Hulk will not fill a jetcan in the time it takes an Orca to dock, empty, warp back. (Even if it did, Hulks can make around 1 jetcan per Cycle, and they don't mine 1 Jetcan of Ore per cycle).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2334 - 2012-07-30 22:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Richard Desturned wrote:

so yeah you haven't figured out ship fittings beyond the "swiss army knife" school of pubbie fittings


Sorry, I don't have dedicated teams to find out how to exploit the various parts of the game.

Ofc you won't spit such godly fitting to show off the mere mortals, right?


Richard Desturned wrote:

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Of course the above is just a testament at how a combat ship is super-flexible, can still have 37K EHP *without* all V skills, super fast lock and big burst. No need for exotic implants or whatever odd crap as well.

All flexibility and power that mining ships don't have.


so why don't miners switch to hurricanes since they're so flexible


I have a gas mining 'cane somewhere.
And a pre-Noctis salvagecane

Just saying...

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2335 - 2012-07-30 22:36:08 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

Hulks could easily simply Orbit the roid they're mining. Would make ganking them a lot harder.


Works well with ice mining, but for normal mining, expecially the roids you say to dig (1.0 sec) pop so fast that in the end roid orbiting gets lost.

Ofc you can go further and anchor GSCs and whatsnot and then keep adding more burden always on the defendants.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2336 - 2012-07-30 22:37:35 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mining fleets - expecially multi Orca ones - tend to be cross corporation as well, so the pilots not in the Orca's corp can't take anything from the Orcas including crystals


why do miners feel that they need to all be in their personal tax dodging corps


The month or so I have done this year it was always about 4 corps in fleet. All busy dodging... oh wait.

But hey don't let the "Hulk fleet friendly" concept wooosh too high above you!

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Pipa Porto
#2337 - 2012-07-30 22:39:21 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

Hulks could easily simply Orbit the roid they're mining. Would make ganking them a lot harder.


Works well with ice mining, but for normal mining, expecially the roids you say to dig (1.0 sec) pop so fast that in the end roid orbiting gets lost.

Ofc you can go further and anchor GSCs and whatsnot and then keep adding more burden always on the defendants.


I don't say to dig anything. I suggest options that have varying levels of effort, cost, and safety.

Also, you can Orbit a roid that you're not mining, while mining other nearby roids.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2338 - 2012-07-30 22:44:45 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

Ok, you know what an Orca is? It's a giant hauler. I said "Hauler Support," not necessarily Itty V support.

The cross corporation issue is easy. Drop a jetcan. Fill it with crystals. Done.


Yeah 3-4 corps mixing stuff or littering a belt they strip in 1 hour with GSCs then they have to move to another belt.


Pipa Porto wrote:

Use Jetcans to buffer if you have a Solo Orca doing hauling for you. A Hulk will not fill a jetcan in the time it takes an Orca to dock, empty, warp back. (Even if it did, Hulks can make around 1 jetcan per Cycle, and they don't mine 1 Jetcan of Ore per cycle).


I kick ANY miner using a jetcan meant to be taken up by an Orca.
Sure gonna risk an Orca to some clown flipping the can somehow, expecially when they go unload.

I had a guy doing this exactly the day before I experimented your Mackinaw fail fit on the field. A guy *with light speed* managed to warp in, flip and warp out so fast I noticed just by pure luck.

I truly doubt you have ever mined in anything beyond the starter frigate.

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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2339 - 2012-07-30 22:44:49 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:

so yeah you haven't figured out ship fittings beyond the "swiss army knife" school of pubbie fittings


Sorry, I don't have dedicated teams to find out how to exploit the various parts of the game.

Ofc you won't spit such godly fitting to show off the mere mortals, right?


try losing the tank mods

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#2340 - 2012-07-30 22:47:43 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

Hulks could easily simply Orbit the roid they're mining. Would make ganking them a lot harder.


Works well with ice mining, but for normal mining, expecially the roids you say to dig (1.0 sec) pop so fast that in the end roid orbiting gets lost.

Ofc you can go further and anchor GSCs and whatsnot and then keep adding more burden always on the defendants.


I don't say to dig anything. I suggest options that have varying levels of effort, cost, and safety.

Also, you can Orbit a roid that you're not mining, while mining other nearby roids.


You just don't get it. Even in WoW they got the concept that if you have a min maxed setup, then that min maxed setup has to work better than the non min maxed setups. This is why they put simplified skill rotations on pure DPS classes. Any kind of slow down and hybrid classes and offspecs can compete with them and make them pointless.

Same for Exhumers. If it's more cumbersome to make an Hulk do work than an alternative, then it will be pointless.
If anything, it should be the other ships to be harder to setup and keep up to speed with their operation, not the Hulk.

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