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Attack frigate changes

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#361 - 2012-07-29 20:48:41 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
rockets do pitiful damage atm you can get more dps/range out of scorch especially when you factor in explosion velocity 10% is conservative really and light missiles are lacklustre for sure but this is the prob with different missile systems for same sized ships were as turrets are more compressed and simpler to balance


You have no idea what you're talking about.


dude i have and had have rocket frigs got plenty of killmails using a hawk trust me the dps doesnt compare to an enyo or much else for that matter when you're talking about effective dps not just paper dps

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#362 - 2012-07-29 20:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Harvey James wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
rockets do pitiful damage atm you can get more dps/range out of scorch especially when you factor in explosion velocity 10% is conservative really and light missiles are lacklustre for sure but this is the prob with different missile systems for same sized ships were as turrets are more compressed and simpler to balance


You have no idea what you're talking about.


dude i have and had have rocket frigs got plenty of killmails using a hawk trust me the dps doesnt compare to an enyo or much else for that matter when you're talking about effective dps not just paper dps


I went through about 50 AFs on the test server before the winter balance patch. The Hawk and Vengeance were consistently one of the best ships. I also fly a Malediction and have no complaints about its rocket dps. Rockets don't need any improvements, their effective dps is good.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#363 - 2012-07-30 00:03:33 UTC
Harvey James wrote:


I keep hearing this amarr issue fact is you have so much more optimal range thean the other races to give you a damage or tracking or another other bonus to improve effective dps it would end up OP the Retribution alone with scorch can do 15km optimal still doing 150 dps ish yes it may seem a wasted bonus but think of it as a balancing bonus and in terms of railguns i hope not they suck even the buff did little to make them better blaster brawlers taking advantage of the sh resist bonus IS the way forward the merlin proves this i personally look forward to the ferox buff 800 dps with the current drake tank would be awesome i currently use them as a tackle alternative to my shield brutix which i hope doesnt have the armour rep bonus its pretty useless unless they buff it to tank 3 bcs or so otherwise any other bonus would be an improvement


I'm not sure about anything you said.

Anyway, as I stated in my previous post. I don't care exactly how they fix it. I think anything more than one 5% bonus per level could become overpowered on Amarr ships. But some don't even have that and are supposed to be ships with lasers as their primary weapon.

Also its more about capping out in a ship just using its primary weapon and some other modules for pvp, like webs, scrams and point.

There are many setups where I would fit a cap booster anyway but on a lot of Amarr ships its required for sustained combat.

I see Amarr more as fleet ships vs. Minmatar being more solo/small gang. But they aren't even able to last in fleets cause they cap out in some common setups in a BC or BS. You are dependent on others for cap just to shoot your guns, after your 5 mins worth of cap boosters run out.

Things I think would be possible solutions.

1. Lower the cap use on lasers

2. Replace the cap use on lasers bonus with an equivalent bonus to cap amount or cap recharge. Making the Amarr ships more versatile.

3. (one I like best) change the bonus to something else and change the base stats of all the Amarr ships to have even more Cap and better recharge.

Options for different bonuses, 5% damage if the ship doesn't already have one, more optimal if you want it to be a sniper, 5% tracking bonus, mass reduction bonus( basically agility but helps when fitting plates), something creative someone else comes up with. I'm not picky just something.

If I'm not active tanking, or neuting someone else, I don't see why I should be capping out flying an Amarr ship using the intended weapon system on what appears to be the race with the best capacitor (on paper anyway.)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#364 - 2012-07-30 09:06:35 UTC
Discussion on some amarr boats (in *this* thread) :
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122912&p=12

Pulse have twice the range of blasters, and as oposed to autocanon, they have this range in optimale, not falloff. Beam, on their side, are the best long range weapon. Arties only have alpha to follow them, but their dps is almost ridiculous in comparison to beams. Rails are plain worse than beam.

And this is valid both with weapons alone and fitted ships. What would be the drawback of pulse laser if you take them cap consumption and tracking ? Beam are even "worse", because cap consumption is their *only* drawback.

Blaster user want more range and more speed on their ships ; amarr want less cap use and more tracking ; caldari want more missiles and more damage on them ; minmatar want to do everything better than everyone. Basicaly, everyone want the drawback of their weapons and ship to go, but that's not balance.

And speaking about ATX, there was prophecy in it ; that must mean that the prophecy is a very good ship...

And as I said, amarr does have solo frigate options. The two new combat frigate are very potent despite not being blasters fotm. You just need to play the strength of the tools you are using. When your tools won't have any strength compare to all the other, I would be right behind you to cry for a buff.

ATM, the only weapons in need of some work is railguns, because they have nothing but extreme range. Last buff allow them to compete against arties in shield fleet, but for armor fleet, they have *nothing* to compete with beams unless you are farther than 130km. Yes, because they use cap too, and a lot of it, even if it's not as many as beams do.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#365 - 2012-07-30 09:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Discussion on some amarr boats (in *this* thread) :
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122912&p=12

Beam, on their side, are the best long range weapon. Rails are plain worse than beam.


This is wrong and outdated information. Beams are significantly worse than railguns in almost every aspect. I don't know how you can come to a different conclusion when this is obvious when comparing them side by side. The only exception are Tachyon Beam Lasers on the BS level.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#366 - 2012-07-30 10:05:54 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

This is wrong and outdated information. Beams are significantly worse than railguns in almost every aspect. I don't know how you can come to a different conclusion when this is obvious when comparing them side by side. The only exception are Tachyon Beam Lasers on the BS level.

Let me lough at you with a pure turret comparison :
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Heavy_Beam_Laser_II
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/250mm_Railgun_II

Same rof, beam have better dammage mod ; ammo have the same stats. Rails have a better range (4km + 4km falloff), but insanely much less tracking (50%!!!). Rails have less cap use (50%, which mean that a cap bonused hull at lvl5 consume the same amount of cap that the railguns). PG/CPU are balanced.

Tachyon are completely out of the comparison in fact, because beams are already better than rails in almost every respect. The range only matter at 100-130km.

So, what are the beam drawbacks ?
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#367 - 2012-07-30 10:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

This is wrong and outdated information. Beams are significantly worse than railguns in almost every aspect. I don't know how you can come to a different conclusion when this is obvious when comparing them side by side. The only exception are Tachyon Beam Lasers on the BS level.

Let me lough at you with a pure turret comparison :
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Heavy_Beam_Laser_II
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/250mm_Railgun_II


As I said, it's outdated information. Use in-game values or an up to date EFT. These are current stats with max skills, fitting requirements excluded:

250mm Railgun II with Antimatter
30 dps (38 with 5% dmg/level bonus)
18 km optimal (27k with 10% optimal/level bonus)
15 km falloff
0.03019 rad/sec tracking
-1.1 cap/sec
42 CPU
208 PG
138 volley damage (173 with 5% dmg/level bonus)


Heavy Beam Laser II with Multifrequency
32 dps
15 km optimal
10 km falloff
0.04125 rad/sec tracking
- 3.8 cap/sec (-1.9 with -10% cap usage per level)
37 CPU
275 PG
137 volley damage
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#368 - 2012-07-30 12:13:05 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

As I said, it's outdated information. Use in-game values or an up to date EFT. These are current stats with max skills, fitting requirements excluded:

250mm Railgun II with Antimatter
30 dps (38 with 5% dmg/level bonus)
18 km optimal (27k with 10% optimal/level bonus)
15 km falloff
0.03019 rad/sec tracking
-1.1 cap/sec
42 CPU
208 PG
138 volley damage (173 with 5% dmg/level bonus)


Heavy Beam Laser II with Multifrequency
32 dps
15 km optimal
10 km falloff
0.04125 rad/sec tracking
- 3.8 cap/sec (-1.9 with -10% cap usage per level)
37 CPU
275 PG
137 volley damage

So unbonused beams are slightly worse than bonused railguns in term of dps ? Which mean that beams are still plain better than railguns if we don't consider bonuses ?
Sang-in Tiers
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#369 - 2012-07-30 13:57:56 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:


250mm Railgun II with Antimatter
30 dps (38 with 5% dmg/level bonus)
18 km optimal (27k with 10% optimal/level bonus)
15 km falloff
0.03019 rad/sec tracking
-1.1 cap/sec
42 CPU
208 PG
138 volley damage (173 with 5% dmg/level bonus)


Heavy Beam Laser II with Multifrequency
32 dps
15 km optimal
10 km falloff
0.04125 rad/sec tracking
- 3.8 cap/sec (-1.9 with -10% cap usage per level)
37 CPU
275 PG
137 volley damage


So bold text is where Rails are marginally better?Ugh
And here I was thinking at least beam lasers were okay of the two.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#370 - 2012-07-30 14:18:43 UTC
Sang-in Tiers wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:


250mm Railgun II with Antimatter
30 dps (38 with 5% dmg/level bonus)
18 km optimal (27k with 10% optimal/level bonus)
15 km falloff
0.03019 rad/sec tracking
-1.1 cap/sec
42 CPU
208 PG
138 volley damage (173 with 5% dmg/level bonus)


Heavy Beam Laser II with Multifrequency
32 dps
15 km optimal
10 km falloff
0.04125 rad/sec tracking
- 3.8 cap/sec (-1.9 with -10% cap usage per level)
37 CPU
275 PG
137 volley damage


So bold text is where Rails are marginally better?Ugh
And here I was thinking at least beam lasers were okay of the two.


seems beams have better tracking that's unusual and slightly better dps

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#371 - 2012-07-30 15:21:58 UTC
30% less tracking is clearly an advantage... And for the weapons themselves (without hull bonuses), beam have 6.7% more dps.
Of falloff and range, beam have one second ammo swap ; combined with the dps advantage, that mean that rail will have a dps advantage when beam will be out of aurora range (which is very far away).

So here is the problem : if both systems are damage bonused, beam are better railguns with heavy cap use.
Doddy
Excidium.
#372 - 2012-07-30 15:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Mechael wrote:
Deena Amaj wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Sang-in Tiers wrote:

"Almost all the time", except the tracking is worse so its hard to hit, this has all been said in the thread already so no point to bring it up again. Im just trying to point out that there are some imbalances here and it sucks thus hoping CCP will take mercy on my race and try to fix this issue up.


Hm. Tracking is only a real issue in solo/small gang fights, thanks to the bjorked turret damage formula. Fix the formula, solve the problem.


Dude, could you elaborate that formula part? Since it is apparently a game-fixer, might as well expand a bit more on that topic.

I've been so long in the game, but never really got behind that specific field of theory craft.
(I'm not talking about falloff/optimal range mechanics ;D)


A lot of it does have to do with falloff/optimal range mechanics being less than ideal, but not all of it.

The main problem is that in large fleet battles, ships wind up spread all over the place. Even when you try to put all of the ships in as close to one place as you can get them, they will bump off of each other and spread around. The most extreme example is of course Titans. Put 10 of them on the same grid and you're in for a fight that's spread over at minimum 30-40km or so, minimum.

This becomes a big issue that winds up favoring longer range weapons over any other kind of weapon in big fleet fights because longer range weapons do not suffer from accuracy problems until things get close, even when shooting at something extremely tiny (tinier than their guns are designed to hit.) The way tracking works, your gun will wind up having a very rough minimum viable range (assuming your opponent is moving.) Anything beyond this range gets easier and easier to hit until they reach your falloff range (beyond optimal.)

This is why big fleets favor long range weapons almost to the exclusion of all else. Those giant battleship sized guns have little to no problem hitting even frigates at typical large fleet ranges. The problem here being that tracking is the only measurement of accuracy taken into account so long as your opponent is within optimal range (which is compounded by the fact that large guns have much, much longer optimal ranges.) Missiles are much more balanced in this respect than turrets are (case in point: so many people complain that torps do little to no damage to anything smaller than a battleship.)

My solution is worth a thread in and of itself, so we'll get to what's relevant here: the poorer tracking that lasers have becomes less and less relevant the more ships there are on the field. And blasters? Well, don't bring blasters to fleet fights.


This doesn't bare any resemblance to reality.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#373 - 2012-07-31 13:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
rockets do pitiful damage atm you can get more dps/range out of scorch especially when you factor in explosion velocity 10% is conservative really and light missiles are lacklustre for sure but this is the prob with different missile systems for same sized ships were as turrets are more compressed and simpler to balance

Posting to confirm this guy is laughably stupid.
(And probably needs to train his skill past 2 sometime)

To put this in nice simple words for you: yes, rockets do less on-paper DPS than an Enyo's blasters. However they do their full DPS, all the time with 100% reliability if you have the most basic idea of how to fit and fly a rocket using ship - which you apparently don't. STFU.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#374 - 2012-07-31 17:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Quote:
rockets do pitiful damage atm you can get more dps/range out of scorch especially when you factor in explosion velocity 10% is conservative really and light missiles are lacklustre for sure but this is the prob with different missile systems for same sized ships were as turrets are more compressed and simpler to balance

Posting to confirm this guy is laughably stupid.
(And probably needs to train his skill past 2 sometime)

To put this in nice simple words for you: yes, rockets do less on-paper DPS than an Enyo's blasters. However they do their full DPS, all the time with 100% reliability if you have the most basic idea of how to fit and fly a rocket using ship - which you apparently don't. STFU.


wow you're a bit of a bell end grow up (anger management comes to mind) and they only do full dps IF the target is equal or slower than the rocket explosion velocity is

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#375 - 2012-07-31 19:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Harvey James wrote:
wow you're a bit of a bell end grow up (anger management comes to mind) and they only do full dps IF the target is equal or slower than the rocket explosion velocity is


Lol You really do not have a clue do you?
Hint: you can get full DPS on almost any frigate that's webbed and scrammed. They don't need to be going 225M/S, in fact they can be going about 600+ and you still do 100% damage because rocket explosion radius is so tiny that you need to be going very fast for damage reductions to start kicking in. Hell against the slower frigates you can even use rage rockets effectively.

So again, try training your skills past 2 sometime and then come back here before you start running your mouth about things you obviously do not understand.

Edit: on further experimentation, a Dramiel going 926m/s (single webbed) only gets a 20DPS reduction on the charts I'm using.
I can provide DPS graphs if requested.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#376 - 2012-07-31 19:42:34 UTC
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
wow you're a bit of a bell end grow up (anger management comes to mind) and they only do full dps IF the target is equal or slower than the rocket explosion velocity is


Lol You really do not have a clue do you?
Hint: you can get full DPS on almost any frigate that's webbed and scrammed. They don't need to be going 225M/S, in fact they can be going about 600+ and you still do 100% damage because rocket explosion radius is so tiny that you need to be going very fast for damage reductions to start kicking in. Hell against the slower frigates you can even use rage rockets effectively.

So again, try training your skills past 2 sometime and then come back here before you start running your mouth about things you obviously do not understand.

Edit: on further experimentation, a Dramiel going 926m/s (single webbed) only gets a 20DPS reduction on the charts I'm using.
I can provide DPS graphs if requested.


well you just proved my point :)
and inty speed of 4km/s plus wipes off 100 dps ish

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#377 - 2012-07-31 20:38:52 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
well you just proved my point :)
and inty speed of 4km/s plus wipes off 100 dps ish


Rocket ships fight in web range. Their damage to an inty going 4 km/sec is irrelevant. The example shows that you don't have the slightest idea how rocket ships are actually used in combat.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#378 - 2012-07-31 20:47:46 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
well you just proved my point :)
and inty speed of 4km/s plus wipes off 100 dps ish


Rocket ships fight in web range. Their damage to an inty going 4 km/sec is irrelevant. The example shows that you don't have the slightest idea how rocket ships are actually used in combat.


i was accentuating my point about rockets not doing 100% dmg all the time and that other factors mainly speed could drastically alter the dmg i know how rocket ships fight ive used them before myself in pvp successfully so less of the inaccurate insults pls

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sang-in Tiers
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#379 - 2012-08-01 01:55:49 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
well you just proved my point :)
and inty speed of 4km/s plus wipes off 100 dps ish


Rocket ships fight in web range. Their damage to an inty going 4 km/sec is irrelevant. The example shows that you don't have the slightest idea how rocket ships are actually used in combat.


i was accentuating my point about rockets not doing 100% dmg all the time and that other factors mainly speed could drastically alter the dmg i know how rocket ships fight ive used them before myself in pvp successfully so less of the inaccurate insults pls

Beam lasers don't do 100% of their damage to a dramiel going 4km/s at 5km orbit either. Needs boost. :(
That's pretty much what it sounds like.

Can we take this back to a sensible level now?
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#380 - 2012-08-01 17:19:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
well you just proved my point :)
and inty speed of 4km/s plus wipes off 100 dps ish

Every time you post it just confirms your ignorance. An inty going 4km/s would not be hit by rockets (or much else, actually) at all.
An inty in web range on the other hand (you know, that area rocket ships actually fight in?*) is not going 4km/s and will melt very quickly.


*Just giving a free tip to someone who obviously doesn't know how to fly a rocket frigate.