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infinitely vulnerable?
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Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#41 - 2012-07-27 21:39:58 UTC
chatgris wrote:
First off - I think things are still far better than pre-inferno pvp wise. However, pvp is definitely scaling down this last week or so in the gallente/caldari front - it used to be that you could fly around and there'd be small gangs dessies in plexes everywhere - now things seem to be dropping off to a few large caldari fleets rolling around, but very little solo action going around. Maybe that's because so many systems are vulnerable that there's very little reason to plex anywhere anymore.

I'm hoping that nulli start plexing away like mad - I'm waiting up there for them to be in fw to see if they'll do anything, and I have my JF sitting at the ready full of destroyers in case they do.

The stabbed/10mn frig thing is wearing people down, I think. The point of taking combat ships to plexes is to get fights, but you never get fights from the LP farmers. And the LP farmers are everywhere, so it gets hard to actually find someone else who's looking for a fight. (and god forbid you look fight in nenn, lololol blob home system what were you expecting lolololol). I'm really hoping they'll fix the no-gun problem sooner rather than later, simply requiring the rats to be killed would change the character of plex combat immensely.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-07-27 21:40:02 UTC  |  Edited by: BolsterBomb
X Gallentius wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
I do not like this infinite vulnerability. We went out to plex down a system (about 20 d-plexes) in one system and still could not break it. Went to bed and logged on a cloaky alt to sit in system while I was at work just to watch the same minni farmer just keep plexing.

I think a max limit needs to be set before o-plexing yields nothing. Plexes obviously still need to spawn but the rewards need to stop after a certain point.
Admit it. It sucks to have alt farmers screw with your space, doesn't it? Actually, I should just say "Suck it up, undock and defend your space, noob" like you guys did when this expansion hit in May.



Big difference in what happened then verses now XG.

1) We have been defending and d -plexing our systems we d- plexed a system 20 plexes and it STILL was vulnerable, what else are we supposed to do at that point?

2) we have BOTH minni AND gals in our space. You had only one, us

3) We actually have people trying to kill these guys you never did

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#43 - 2012-07-27 22:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
BolsterBomb wrote:
... says something with lack of perspective..
It's the same exact thing. You are being overwhelmed by afk plexing alts. Don't worry. You'll adjust. Keep the home systems safe, have fun pew'ing, and pray Nulli Secundi can remove Tier 5 from the Minmatar.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#44 - 2012-07-27 22:08:06 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Bro, the Minmatar use Falcons just as much as we do. You've got team Nemski/Hate who stay permacloaked in Kam in nothing but Falcons throughout most of the day, and you guys even dropped a neutral Falcon alt on us earlier today. As far as the neut logi goes, even though we've dropped it on the field a few times we've only had to actually rep with it a handful of times. It lets us fight when we're outnumbered and even in the cases where we have numbers, it lets us drop a counter that isn't an obvious hard counter to whatever fleet the other guys that might have.

Cmon Vordak, you're better than that to be complaining that the use of game mechanics that are available for everyone to use and get dragged into the "they don't want fights, they just want ganks" arguement. We fight your always Loki boosted gangs without links of our own more often than not, which tends to result in a less than favorable result, but we don't complain about it because its just part of the game.

You guys fly loki-boosted nano-kitey stuff that excels at killing as much as it can and then running away before anyone can kill it, so I could also argue that you guys don't want fights either, but I don't because its all apart of EVE. Its really hard to pin down without Falcons to jam out anti-tackle or logi to keep your tackle/bait alive and i'll be one of the first people to say that you guys understand fly that style of gang very well. Just keep in mind our tactics are a response to the tactics that you guys use as well and we're not dumb enough to split our gang up and burn after your nano gang without an ace up our sleeve, flying against you guys for a month is enough to know you guys know what you're doing. If you wanted to do more than kill bads being bad and idiots, you wouldn't bring Cynabal/Tornado/Vaga gangs.


TBH, Late Night Alliance are the type of people who would much rather jump in random brawl BCs and charge into a fight and go down swinging. Your tactics are forcing us to adapt away from that style, which is fine: it is what it is. However, if you ever decided to put away the neutlogi and multi-ECM boats, you'd get some awesome brawl fights where everyone wins and has a good time, instead of one side getting force-multiplied to **** and having no fun, or one side popping a few tackle that run out to them. Li Nemski/Hate is a special person that basically only flys Falcons, and I don't particularly like that very much, but he is pretty hilarious on comms, especially once he hits around 30 tequila shots in. :P He isn't even in LNA though.

However, I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining about your tactics, simply that if you ever chose to stop using that kind of force-multiplication, we'd give you solid fights instead of dancing around with nanofag stuff or gayCM of our own. You also have to consider, at maximum, we have MAYBE 10 dudes online at night recently. It's really hard to fight larger #s AND ECM/Logi with out resorting to nanofag stuff. vOv

/pointlessrambling


Fair enough, you should pass that message along to your Iron Oxide/DRACO bros too though, since a lot of times our fleet comps are a carryover from earlier in the day when bust out their BS/ahac/logi heavy gangs. And regarding the numbers thing, its always hard to tell how many numbers any group actually has active, especially with the layout of kourm/huola/lamaa. Most of our big losses happened when we thought you guys only had a handful of guys active and then boom, trap sprung. In fact, usually when I fly Falcon its because you guys blew up all my BCs and I haven't had a chance to replace them yet. :P

The moar you cry the less you pee
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#45 - 2012-07-27 23:22:28 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Bro, the Minmatar use Falcons just as much as we do. You've got team Nemski/Hate who stay permacloaked in Kam in nothing but Falcons throughout most of the day, and you guys even dropped a neutral Falcon alt on us earlier today. As far as the neut logi goes, even though we've dropped it on the field a few times we've only had to actually rep with it a handful of times. It lets us fight when we're outnumbered and even in the cases where we have numbers, it lets us drop a counter that isn't an obvious hard counter to whatever fleet the other guys that might have.

Cmon Vordak, you're better than that to be complaining that the use of game mechanics that are available for everyone to use and get dragged into the "they don't want fights, they just want ganks" arguement. We fight your always Loki boosted gangs without links of our own more often than not, which tends to result in a less than favorable result, but we don't complain about it because its just part of the game.

You guys fly loki-boosted nano-kitey stuff that excels at killing as much as it can and then running away before anyone can kill it, so I could also argue that you guys don't want fights either, but I don't because its all apart of EVE. Its really hard to pin down without Falcons to jam out anti-tackle or logi to keep your tackle/bait alive and i'll be one of the first people to say that you guys understand fly that style of gang very well. Just keep in mind our tactics are a response to the tactics that you guys use as well and we're not dumb enough to split our gang up and burn after your nano gang without an ace up our sleeve, flying against you guys for a month is enough to know you guys know what you're doing. If you wanted to do more than kill bads being bad and idiots, you wouldn't bring Cynabal/Tornado/Vaga gangs.


TBH, Late Night Alliance are the type of people who would much rather jump in random brawl BCs and charge into a fight and go down swinging. Your tactics are forcing us to adapt away from that style, which is fine: it is what it is. However, if you ever decided to put away the neutlogi and multi-ECM boats, you'd get some awesome brawl fights where everyone wins and has a good time, instead of one side getting force-multiplied to **** and having no fun, or one side popping a few tackle that run out to them. Li Nemski/Hate is a special person that basically only flys Falcons, and I don't particularly like that very much, but he is pretty hilarious on comms, especially once he hits around 30 tequila shots in. :P He isn't even in LNA though.

However, I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining about your tactics, simply that if you ever chose to stop using that kind of force-multiplication, we'd give you solid fights instead of dancing around with nanofag stuff or gayCM of our own. You also have to consider, at maximum, we have MAYBE 10 dudes online at night recently. It's really hard to fight larger #s AND ECM/Logi with out resorting to nanofag stuff. vOv

/pointlessrambling


Fair enough, you should pass that message along to your Iron Oxide/DRACO bros too though, since a lot of times our fleet comps are a carryover from earlier in the day when bust out their BS/ahac/logi heavy gangs. And regarding the numbers thing, its always hard to tell how many numbers any group actually has active, especially with the layout of kourm/huola/lamaa. Most of our big losses happened when we thought you guys only had a handful of guys active and then boom, trap sprung. In fact, usually when I fly Falcon its because you guys blew up all my BCs and I haven't had a chance to replace them yet. :P


On an unrelated note, I think we should be best friends forever.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#46 - 2012-07-28 05:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuri Intaki
Dynast wrote:
The stabbed/10mn frig thing is wearing people down, I think. The point of taking combat ships to plexes is to get fights, but you never get fights from the LP farmers. And the LP farmers are everywhere, so it gets hard to actually find someone else who's looking for a fight.


Do like me, send your plexing alts to minmatar space. I've made millions of LP with barely trained afk plexers and the guys whose alts are farming our space, have to send their mains to defend their precious ISK faucet. Hell, even some of the gallentes have followed me here because obviously they are more interested about their isk making than defending their own space.

I am, I find it hilarious that people from Ushra Khan, Electus Matari and other fail bunch whine in local that "i'm invading space without justification and this must be punished" (lol rp) and that we have afk plexers and "rule breaking alts" who run systems down while their own afk dramiels and whatnot are all over Placid and Black Rise.

But as Bad Messenger said. "Keep defending, you have nothing to win and we have everything to gain while LP keeps flowing from doors and windows"
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#47 - 2012-07-28 07:03:23 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:


On an unrelated note, I think we should be best friends forever.

Only if its forever. ;)

The moar you cry the less you pee
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#48 - 2012-07-28 08:42:56 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
I do not like this infinite vulnerability. We went out to plex down a system (about 20 d-plexes) in one system and still could not break it. Went to bed and logged on a cloaky alt to sit in system while I was at work just to watch the same minni farmer just keep plexing.

I think a max limit needs to be set before o-plexing yields nothing. Plexes obviously still need to spawn but the rewards need to stop after a certain point.
Admit it. It sucks to have alt farmers screw with your space, doesn't it? Actually, I should just say "Suck it up, undock and defend your space, noob" like you guys did when this expansion hit in May.



Big difference in what happened then verses now XG.

1) We have been defending and d -plexing our systems we d- plexed a system 20 plexes and it STILL was vulnerable, what else are we supposed to do at that point?

2) we have BOTH minni AND gals in our space. You had only one, us

3) We actually have people trying to kill these guys you never did



Suck it up.
I wasnt trying to kill farmers, i actually WAS killing them
l2p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4o2ottYztI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13E4UTefjhg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfXhqgfwviQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RfOMzy_RE

Seriously though, as it stands just accept that the ebb and flow of the current occupancy war should give all sides a chance to cash out lp at decent rates fro time to time.

All those wanting to permanently destroy you enemies faction, im happy to say, doesnt look like its gonna happen. I was sceptical of this system to begin with but even without nulli, the amarr are finally poised to earn some isk with 20ish matar systems vuln.

As for minnies in your space, they will head home once we swing your systems and amarr swing theirs. That will present caldari an opportunity to stack up their own pile of vuln systems. Being able to stack up vuln systems with no lp for defending forces a kind of balance.
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#49 - 2012-07-28 08:47:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lock out
Keeping systems vulnerable is a natural reflex to no LP for defensive plexing. In the end it's much more fun this way where ppl adapt, come up with unforseen strategies and whatnot, rather than doing the whole boring plex/flip/deplex routine.

And not like vulnerable systems are not a conflict generator at some point, imagine that gallente will have to flip 30 (?) odd systems at once. That could create so many awesome large scale fights all across FW area.

As it's already been suggested in other threads , not like there aren't counter tactics to it (just put 3-4 dread alts in opposing militia and flip the systems yourself). But it's easier to complain about things not working like you'd want them to rather than thinking in sandbox terms, getting creative and using all the crazy tools eve offers. But y'know ... :effort: . Much easier to qq on the forums that CCP should sort your **** for you.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#50 - 2012-07-28 10:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Snake
Cearain wrote:
Rigel Vex wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
PS: Being labelled Mistress Doom'n'Gloom doesn't feel nearly as bad as more and more of my "radical", "extreme", "defeatist" and "lol-RP-carebear" outcries are vindicated and then some .. now, off to bed to dream those sweet, sweet dreams that only come when ones ePeen is polished and sparkly like a gayass teen-bop vampire.

Again, kills are up all over low sec. Fights are up. Everybody who uses FW for fights is having a blast. +1 CCP.



This ^

+1 This new take on FW is awesome!



I would like to see some statistics on this. There was a big uptick in pvp in plexes for about the first 2weeks after inferno and the first 6 weeks after. But in my albeit limited experience the last 2 weeks have been really dry. At least in the amarr minmatar front.



we live in diferent space .... in a moment minnie farmers comes (they come time to time) ... chasing tragedy starts .... and it sucks.

pvp wise FW is broken too because roams are well more rare.


BTW if there is no limit on vulnerability .... some of the systems might get to absolute deadlock ... untill CCP will make some magic.

and yes I think the system is broken and yes CCP is not working on it anymore ... (working as intended ... right Hans?)
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#51 - 2012-07-29 07:51:07 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:


and yes I think the system is broken and yes CCP is not working on it anymore ... (working as intended ... right Hans?)



Don't worry "working as intended" was when minnies were winning, now that they have 22 systems vulnerable am sure Hans made it a priority so systems can't be permavulnerable anymore.
Lexmana
#52 - 2012-07-29 12:40:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Cearain wrote:

Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.


I think you are right but only time will tell. It is summer after all. But considering that Amarrs current focus is oplexing to get to a good tier for cash out I am not surprised if we see a drop in PvP. Oplexing is most efficient solo and it favors flying small fast ships without guns. Both of which will discourage PvP. And the no docking to reship or replace after a fight doesn't help either.

I think we are starting to see what FW will become if these mechanics stay intact. For the most part it will be much of a waste land with a few fights for fun near some key systems (e.g. Kamela) while one team is plexing to bring as many systems to vulnerable as they muster without going insane or some trigger happy FC think they have had enough of it and start flipping.

Then we will see a week or so of epic fighting for warzone control when one team tries to get to T5. Rinse and repeat.

I personally don't think the general idea is bad. But there might be to much time spent in the plexing a wasteland state and too little time spent in epic fighting for warzone control for my liking. Three things could be done to improve that:

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#53 - 2012-07-29 13:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Feldman
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.


I think you are right but only time will tell. It is summer after all. But considering that Amarrs current focus is oplexing to get to a good tier for cash out I am not surprised if we see a drop in PvP. Oplexing is most efficient solo and it favors flying small fast ships without guns. Both of which will discourage PvP. And the no docking to reship or replace after a fight doesn't help either.

I think we are starting to see what FW will become if these mechanics stay intact. For the most part it will be much of a waste land with a few fights for fun near some key systems (e.g. Kamela) while one team is plexing to bring as many systems to vulnerable as they muster without going insane or some trigger happy FC think they have had enough of it and start flipping.

Then we will see a week or so of epic fighting for warzone control when one team tries to get to T5. Rinse and repeat.

I personally don't think the general idea is bad. But there might be to much time spent in the plexing a wasteland state and too little time spent in epic fighting for warzone control for my liking. Three things could be done to improve that:

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable


The thing is, you probably won't see any epic fighting for warzone control when one side decides to flip all the systems just because they'll do it in their dominant timezone to maximize how many systems they can flip at once. The current issue is that offensive plexing, defensive plexing, and PVP are all activities that are fairly disjointed from one another. PVP happens to overlap on occasion, but not as much as it should since plexing strategies that focus on PVP avoidance tend to be more successful.

Its absolutely ridiculous that our "ignore plexing and focus on PVP" strategy got us up to 19 vulnerable + 3 controlled systems pre-Nulli, which is 3 more systems than we ever owned when we were actively contesting the warzone. While I think the meta-gaming of system control strategies that you're seeing evolve is interesting, ultimately they promote extended periods of stagnation over constant and direct exciting warfare driven PVP conflict.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#54 - 2012-07-29 14:16:28 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.


I think you are right but only time will tell. It is summer after all. But considering that Amarrs current focus is oplexing to get to a good tier for cash out I am not surprised if we see a drop in PvP. Oplexing is most efficient solo and it favors flying small fast ships without guns. Both of which will discourage PvP. And the no docking to reship or replace after a fight doesn't help either.

I think we are starting to see what FW will become if these mechanics stay intact. For the most part it will be much of a waste land with a few fights for fun near some key systems (e.g. Kamela) while one team is plexing to bring as many systems to vulnerable as they muster without going insane or some trigger happy FC think they have had enough of it and start flipping.

Then we will see a week or so of epic fighting for warzone control when one team tries to get to T5. Rinse and repeat.

I personally don't think the general idea is bad. But there might be to much time spent in the plexing a wasteland state and too little time spent in epic fighting for warzone control for my liking. Three things could be done to improve that:

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable


The thing is, you probably won't see any epic fighting for warzone control when one side decides to flip all the systems just because they'll do it in their dominant timezone to maximize how many systems they can flip at once. The current issue is that offensive plexing, defensive plexing, and PVP are all activities that are fairly disjointed from one another. PVP happens to overlap on occasion, but not as much as it should since plexing strategies that focus on PVP avoidance tend to be more successful.

Its absolutely ridiculous that our "ignore plexing and focus on PVP" strategy got us up to 19 vulnerable + 3 controlled systems pre-Nulli, which is 3 more systems than we ever owned when we were actively contesting the warzone. While I think the meta-gaming of system control strategies that you're seeing evolve is interesting, ultimately they promote extended periods of stagnation over constant and direct exciting warfare driven PVP conflict.


This. There is no incentive to defensive plex, except home systems. Having infinitely vulnerable systems means there is no longer any reason to actually move around the warzone, and now everyone just sits in Kamela, Kourmonen and Huola (at least USTZ) which is BORING AS ****. When there were systems to be fighting over, both sides would be all over the place. Now, Minmatar have no reason to go into "Amarr territory" of the warzone unless it's to mission. And Amarr have no reason to go anywhere unless its to farm LP in no-fighting-farm boats.

I was having much more fun when systems were getting flipped back and forth, I know for a fact Amarr were having fun too. You guys now have the #s to give the sov-war an actual go instead of resorting to the infinite farm amarr LP in vulnerable systems, which is fine, but I'm here for the PVP, I figured most of you are too. vOv

tl;dr - the designed system (flipping the systems back and forth) creates conflict, movement around the warzone and ultimately PVP and fights. the abuse of this system (not flipping systems) creates FarmVille ala EVE.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Lexmana
#55 - 2012-07-29 14:26:41 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

I think you are right but only time will tell. It is summer after all. But considering that Amarrs current focus is oplexing to get to a good tier for cash out I am not surprised if we see a drop in PvP. Oplexing is most efficient solo and it favors flying small fast ships without guns. Both of which will discourage PvP. And the no docking to reship or replace after a fight doesn't help either.

I think we are starting to see what FW will become if these mechanics stay intact. For the most part it will be much of a waste land with a few fights for fun near some key systems (e.g. Kamela) while one team is plexing to bring as many systems to vulnerable as they muster without going insane or some trigger happy FC think they have had enough of it and start flipping.

Then we will see a week or so of epic fighting for warzone control when one team tries to get to T5. Rinse and repeat.

I personally don't think the general idea is bad. But there might be to much time spent in the plexing a wasteland state and too little time spent in epic fighting for warzone control for my liking. Three things could be done to improve that:

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable


The thing is, you probably won't see any epic fighting for warzone control when one side decides to flip all the systems just because they'll do it in their dominant timezone to maximize how many systems they can flip at once. The current issue is that offensive plexing, defensive plexing, and PVP are all activities that are fairly disjointed from one another. PVP happens to overlap on occasion, but not as much as it should since plexing strategies that focus on PVP avoidance tend to be more successful.

Its absolutely ridiculous that our "ignore plexing and focus on PVP" strategy got us up to 19 vulnerable + 3 controlled systems pre-Nulli, which is 3 more systems than we ever owned when we were actively contesting the warzone. While I think the meta-gaming of system control strategies that you're seeing evolve is interesting, ultimately they promote extended periods of stagnation over constant and direct exciting warfare driven PVP conflict.

Yeah, the main problem as you say is that plexing and PvP are disjointed. I belive my three suggestions above would improve the situation though.

A more correct name of our current strategy would be "Don't flip systems! (until we are ready for a push)". And I will be surprised if that will not become the dominant strategy in FW. But you maybe right in assuming there won't be an epic battle for warzone control. It does not make much sense to try stop the push (you can't). Flipping back a few systems will just prolong the pain of T1 WZC. Thus min/maxing suggest you should just capitulate and start oplexing immediately instead. But I am sure there will be some good fights at least and how long will it take to flip 56+ systems. Surely, it would take more than one night?
Lexmana
#56 - 2012-07-29 14:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Vordak Kallager wrote:


This. There is no incentive to defensive plex, except home systems. Having infinitely vulnerable systems means there is no longer any reason to actually move around the warzone, and now everyone just sits in Kamela, Kourmonen and Huola (at least USTZ) which is BORING AS ****. When there were systems to be fighting over, both sides would be all over the place. Now, Minmatar have no reason to go into "Amarr territory" of the warzone unless it's to mission. And Amarr have no reason to go anywhere unless its to farm LP in no-fighting-farm boats.

I was having much more fun when systems were getting flipped back and forth, I know for a fact Amarr were having fun too. You guys now have the #s to give the sov-war an actual go instead of resorting to the infinite farm amarr LP in vulnerable systems, which is fine, but I'm here for the PVP, I figured most of you are too. vOv

tl;dr - the designed system (flipping the systems back and forth) creates conflict, movement around the warzone and ultimately PVP and fights. the abuse of this system (not flipping systems) creates FarmVille ala EVE.

You know I agree in a lot of what you say. But complaining about Amarr farmers is just funny. It was all the Minmatar farmers that made the flip back and forth strategy impossible for Amarr. If we would flip systems all the time we would be permanently stuck at T1 while you could spike T5 at will. I am sure you don't have an issue with that but many Amarrians do.

Now we have a counter within current mechanics. It is not pretty. But neither is Rifters without guns (or Tormentors for that matter).

Mechanics has to change to improve things. I think that my three simple points above would resurrect small scale PvP in plexes.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#57 - 2012-07-29 14:53:31 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:


This. There is no incentive to defensive plex, except home systems. Having infinitely vulnerable systems means there is no longer any reason to actually move around the warzone, and now everyone just sits in Kamela, Kourmonen and Huola (at least USTZ) which is BORING AS ****. When there were systems to be fighting over, both sides would be all over the place. Now, Minmatar have no reason to go into "Amarr territory" of the warzone unless it's to mission. And Amarr have no reason to go anywhere unless its to farm LP in no-fighting-farm boats.

I was having much more fun when systems were getting flipped back and forth, I know for a fact Amarr were having fun too. You guys now have the #s to give the sov-war an actual go instead of resorting to the infinite farm amarr LP in vulnerable systems, which is fine, but I'm here for the PVP, I figured most of you are too. vOv

tl;dr - the designed system (flipping the systems back and forth) creates conflict, movement around the warzone and ultimately PVP and fights. the abuse of this system (not flipping systems) creates FarmVille ala EVE.

You know I agree in a lot of what you say. But complaining about Amarr farmers is just funny. It was all the Minmatar farmers that made the flip back and forth strategy impossible for Amarr. If we would flip systems all the time we would be permanently stuck at T1 while you could spike T5 at will. I am sure you don't have an issue with that but many Amarrians do.

Now we have a counter within current mechanics. It is not pretty. But neither is Rifters without guns (or Tormentors for that matter).

Mechanics has to change to improve things. I think that my three simple points above would resurrect small scale PvP in plexes.


Totally hear you, mate. The Farmer-problem (both sides) is one of the main things wrong with the current system. Your solutions do help fix it, or are at least a start. The intent was to make it financially viable to PVP, and they succeeded, but in the same stroke, they hampered PVP by introducing the "ISK FAUCET DETECTED! EVERYONE START SHOVING LP IN YOUR POCKETS" thing.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#58 - 2012-07-29 21:46:41 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.


I think you are right but only time will tell. It is summer after all. But considering that Amarrs current focus is oplexing to get to a good tier for cash out I am not surprised if we see a drop in PvP. Oplexing is most efficient solo and it favors flying small fast ships without guns. Both of which will discourage PvP. And the no docking to reship or replace after a fight doesn't help either.

I think we are starting to see what FW will become if these mechanics stay intact. For the most part it will be much of a waste land with a few fights for fun near some key systems (e.g. Kamela) while one team is plexing to bring as many systems to vulnerable as they muster without going insane or some trigger happy FC think they have had enough of it and start flipping.

Then we will see a week or so of epic fighting for warzone control when one team tries to get to T5. Rinse and repeat.

I personally don't think the general idea is bad. But there might be to much time spent in the plexing a wasteland state and too little time spent in epic fighting for warzone control for my liking. Three things could be done to improve that:

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable


The thing is, you probably won't see any epic fighting for warzone control when one side decides to flip all the systems just because they'll do it in their dominant timezone to maximize how many systems they can flip at once. The current issue is that offensive plexing, defensive plexing, and PVP are all activities that are fairly disjointed from one another. PVP happens to overlap on occasion, but not as much as it should since plexing strategies that focus on PVP avoidance tend to be more successful.

Its absolutely ridiculous that our "ignore plexing and focus on PVP" strategy got us up to 19 vulnerable + 3 controlled systems pre-Nulli, which is 3 more systems than we ever owned when we were actively contesting the warzone. While I think the meta-gaming of system control strategies that you're seeing evolve is interesting, ultimately they promote extended periods of stagnation over constant and direct exciting warfare driven PVP conflict.


This. There is no incentive to defensive plex, except home systems. Having infinitely vulnerable systems means there is no longer any reason to actually move around the warzone, and now everyone just sits in Kamela, Kourmonen and Huola (at least USTZ) which is BORING AS ****. When there were systems to be fighting over, both sides would be all over the place. Now, Minmatar have no reason to go into "Amarr territory" of the warzone unless it's to mission. And Amarr have no reason to go anywhere unless its to farm LP in no-fighting-farm boats.

I was having much more fun when systems were getting flipped back and forth, I know for a fact Amarr were having fun too. You guys now have the #s to give the sov-war an actual go instead of resorting to the infinite farm amarr LP in vulnerable systems, which is fine, but I'm here for the PVP, I figured most of you are too. vOv

tl;dr - the designed system (flipping the systems back and forth) creates conflict, movement around the warzone and ultimately PVP and fights. the abuse of this system (not flipping systems) creates FarmVille ala EVE.



The problems you mention are caused due to the stupid no docking rule. I used to have bases thoughout metro. My corp was starting to have 3 or 4 minor bases throughout metro as well. My corp used to go on roams up to hror.

After the no docking rule was announced all this changed. Now we have one base. (Although kamela may start to be a second for some of us.) Moreover we rarely go past were our gang could get locked out in hoff. This has nothing to do with vulnerabliity of systems.

The reason no amarr go deep into minmatar space to do anything other than pve plexes is because if part of the gang gets blown up they have to then go 7 or 8 jumps to reship and the rest of the gang has to wait or escort them back. Its the same as a solo pilot. I can go up into metro but then if I see someone running a minor plex and I am in a cruiser I have to go jumping back. Its just silly. The only reason I am going out there is to plex and I really hope I don't get blown up because then I have to run several jumps just to get in a new ship.


You call our refusing to flip a system is an "abuse." But if it weren't for our ability to do that we would never have any hope to get back into the game. We would have kept flipping systems for your farmers to come and farm while we were gone. We are taking advantage of a mechanic that ccp built in to help the side that is down.

Bottom line is you did not defend the system and let us come in and plex it to vulnerable. Numerous times I will plex systems and see several minmatar flying by on scan and they never bother to fight or chase me out. Thats fine, if you don't want to pvp, but then you lose the systems - and shouldn't complain.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#59 - 2012-07-29 21:56:28 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.


I think you are right but only time will tell. It is summer after all. But considering that Amarrs current focus is oplexing to get to a good tier for cash out I am not surprised if we see a drop in PvP. Oplexing is most efficient solo and it favors flying small fast ships without guns. Both of which will discourage PvP. And the no docking to reship or replace after a fight doesn't help either.

I think we are starting to see what FW will become if these mechanics stay intact. For the most part it will be much of a waste land with a few fights for fun near some key systems (e.g. Kamela) while one team is plexing to bring as many systems to vulnerable as they muster without going insane or some trigger happy FC think they have had enough of it and start flipping.

Then we will see a week or so of epic fighting for warzone control when one team tries to get to T5. Rinse and repeat.

I personally don't think the general idea is bad. But there might be to much time spent in the plexing a wasteland state and too little time spent in epic fighting for warzone control for my liking. Three things could be done to improve that:

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable


All 3 are excellent proposals and will help. But I have to say I don't think it would be enough. Plexes will still be best done in a pve ship.

Bottom line is until the militia players are notified where and what type of plexes are being attacked people will keep trying to ninja plex. Let the players know where pelxes are being attakced and this will change the plexing to a truly pvp game. Until that happens its going to be best done in a pve ship hoping the other side doesn't see you.


Also its not just o-plexing that is best done in pve ships. D-plexing is also best done as pve ships. Perhaps even more as you do that in a system your enemy can't even dock in.

And yeah the no docking rule sucks for pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#60 - 2012-07-29 22:05:13 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.


I think you are right but only time will tell. It is summer after all. But considering that Amarrs current focus is oplexing to get to a good tier for cash out I am not surprised if we see a drop in PvP. Oplexing is most efficient solo and it favors flying small fast ships without guns. Both of which will discourage PvP. And the no docking to reship or replace after a fight doesn't help either.

I think we are starting to see what FW will become if these mechanics stay intact. For the most part it will be much of a waste land with a few fights for fun near some key systems (e.g. Kamela) while one team is plexing to bring as many systems to vulnerable as they muster without going insane or some trigger happy FC think they have had enough of it and start flipping.

Then we will see a week or so of epic fighting for warzone control when one team tries to get to T5. Rinse and repeat.

I personally don't think the general idea is bad. But there might be to much time spent in the plexing a wasteland state and too little time spent in epic fighting for warzone control for my liking. Three things could be done to improve that:

1. Kill all NPC to capture a plex
2. No aggro from NPC when timer is not running
3. Reduce the number of plex needed to get to vulnerable


The thing is, you probably won't see any epic fighting for warzone control when one side decides to flip all the systems just because they'll do it in their dominant timezone to maximize how many systems they can flip at once. The current issue is that offensive plexing, defensive plexing, and PVP are all activities that are fairly disjointed from one another. PVP happens to overlap on occasion, but not as much as it should since plexing strategies that focus on PVP avoidance tend to be more successful.
Its absolutely ridiculous that our "ignore plexing and focus on PVP" strategy got us up to 19 vulnerable + 3 controlled systems pre-Nulli, which is 3 more systems than we ever owned when we were actively contesting the warzone. While I think the meta-gaming of system control strategies that you're seeing evolve is interesting, ultimately they promote extended periods of stagnation over constant and direct exciting warfare driven PVP conflict.


I italicized the part of your post that i have been harping about for years.

Plexing and pvp are distinct right now. Amarr learned that if you are going ot plex you are much better off doing oplexing. It is obvious under the current mechanics. However it is not the case that oplexing is any less pvp than d-plexign. Both are best done with pve ships.

All plexing is best done in a pve ship. This has always been the case. This is the main problem with plexing and fw in general. That is why I have been proposing to change that for years.

But the players kept saying "just add consequences and we will see pvp" CCP listened. But it really hasn't done that. The mechanics need to change so that plexses are fought over in pvp not just ninjaed. The obvious way to do that is to notify both militias immediately when plexes are attacked.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815