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New Mining amounts
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Axe Coldon
#1 - 2012-07-29 01:31:52 UTC
ship module xtal activation mining amount # lasers m3 per hour
skiff t2 laser t2 xtal 104.06 4,448.48 1 153,897.06
skiff t1 laser 104.06 3,812.98 1 131,911.67
skiff t2 deep core t2 xtal 104.06 2,427.24 1 83,971.40
skiff ice 56.85 1,000.00 1 63,324.54

mack t2 laser t2 xtal 104.06 2,424.42 2 167,747.68
mack t1 laser 104.06 2,078.07 2 143,783.43
mack t2 deep core t2 xtal 104.06 1,322.85 2 91,529.12
mack ice 103.46 1,000.00 2 69,592.11

hulk t2 laser t2 xtal 104.06 1,867.65 3 193,836.44
hulk t1 laser 104.06 1,600.85 3 166,146.26
hulk t2 deep core t2 xtal 104.06 1,019.06 3 105,764.44
hulk ice 143.62 1,000.00 3 75,198.44

Test Setup. Rorqual bonuses, perfect skills with foreman implant. Exhumer pilots perfect skills with %5 mining implant. The ice numbers are with the Ore Implant so no implant bonuses on ice. All low slots filled with the appropriate T2 mining upgrades

Sorry for no columns. I manually spaced them out but it didn't post that way. Obviously the hulk mines the most but for normal ores with T2 crystals it can't hold a full set and they would have to be stored elsewhere which for some would be a big hassle and would just use the hulk with t1's.

The Skiff has the superior tank. And with t2's which it would only use 1, mines close to the t1 hulk amount. the Mack with t2's can hold more sets then a hulk but still not a full set if in Null. Would be okay in high were you usually only mine 4 types. And if you use t2 crystals in the Mack vs a T1 hulk it would mine slightly more. Note the Mack has 3 low slots so could give up some mining for a damage control.








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Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#2 - 2012-07-29 01:54:22 UTC
Very nice info, great work... could you do a favor...

I have this very odd idea in my head that CCP could/should make ORE hull tanking (passive) with a shield tank active/passive for rats.

Could you do a cal on how much Sturcture would be needed to survive the standard suicide gank alpha to CONCORD response time.

With 2x in all ships lows the variables would be pretty standard of - all yield, yield + DCU [giving a real reason to fit one with more hull] and then Bulkheads and DCU.

I think this would make sense given the Roq is a hull tanker with a shield buffer of sorts, ORE could go hull and then have the option of shield or hull tanking in the mids = more use of scanners and such... def would help the barges if it was enough with resists and mids being what they are.
Dave Stark
#3 - 2012-07-29 07:21:27 UTC
it's nice to see people who can actually do maths. good job.

current numbers seem ok to be honest, however the mackinaw's third low slot is pushing it to be the mindless king of solo mining which they are trying to stop the hulk being... it's simply gone from one ship to another now; quite saddening.
Axe Coldon
#4 - 2012-07-29 14:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Axe Coldon
My pick for the mindless solo miner is the skiff. buffer tanked at 74,000 ehp. and even though they are selling for 150+ mil i ran the numbers yesterday and cost to invent and make a t2 skiff is only 56mil at yesterdays jita prices. The skiff then is cheap, has a massive tank and a decent ore hold.

and the nice thing about using the skiff you dont give up any mining amounts as the low slots can stay mining upgrades though I guess you could take one out and put in a damage control. The mack still has problems with a good tank. though improved, nothing like the skiff.

here is my tanking fit for the skiff. the numbers are from reported in game. shield skills are really good as I am a shield tanker (i.e. caldari/minnie ships). Lots of ways to fit it, this is an omni tanking buffer. Omni meaning near equal resist. buffer no a fast shield recharge but rather lots of EHP. Not enough power for large shield extenders so rigs to extend shields and mid slots for resistance. You can do targeted resistance by changing the em-thermal models. For me, I will be in null tanking rats, so I am not looking for a buffer tank. but all I have to do is take out one invuln and put in a small shield booster. If you dont have good engineering skills can substitute the active em and thermals for the passive ones.

Rigs 2 Core Def Shield Extender 1
Low 2 Mining Laser Upgrade 2
Mid 2 Adaptive Invuln Field 2
1 EM Ward Field 2
1 Thermic Dissapation Field 2
1 Survey Scanner 2
Then high is the t2 laser or t1 or ice.

With modules on and my skills, so not all level 5s but good skills, resists is em 80%, thermal 84%, Kinetic 77%, explosive 81%.

Actual shields (extenders increased them) 13,431. Armor 6,600, Structure 7,500. EHP 72,512 (Defense)

That is giving up no output. a damage control 2 in lows would give resists 82 86 80 84. Shield numbers don't change only extenders and rigs do that, but the EHP from having structure resists goes to 93,296!!!!

AND THAT IS YOUR HIGH SEC ANTI_GANK SHIP FIT! (the one with the damage control 2)

and the price gouging on skiffs will stop because you can get the procurer bpo for 500mil and invent them easily. so the hike in skiffs is temporary and now you see why they are selling out everywhere.

You can do decent on the mack, but not that good. it starts with less shield less armor, less structure. for a little less output the skiff is the solo miner.

Also for those never used skiffs, they fly faster 250ms, align faster so get to warp faster. and now they have a 50m3 drone bay, so same damage as a hulk. but (once prices drop again) only risking 70 mil or so. with fits.

EDIT: None of the exhumers will reduce the damaging cloud from mining Mercoxit now. Only the Deep Core Mining skill will mitigate that. If you want no chance of damage you will need to get Deep Core Mining to 5.

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Dave Stark
#5 - 2012-07-29 17:20:17 UTC
Axe Coldon wrote:
My pick for the mindless solo miner is the skiff.


lowest yield, mediocre cargo capacity, over tanked fort he most part, can't sit afk for extended periods of time... i don't see it dethroning the mackinaw.
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-07-29 17:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ooda
Okey, so thank you CCP for driving me into afk - mining.

I use 3 hulks and one hauler - with this changes I really should use 4 macks instead... and haul 5 times per hour instead of 20+ ... I bet it's even worse If I can squeeze in 3 MLU's into each mack..

Edit: really stupid changes, but I will not complain - less work for more ISK *thumbsup*
Dave Stark
#7 - 2012-07-29 17:54:51 UTC
Ooda wrote:
Okey, so thank you CCP for driving me into afk - mining.

I use 3 hulks and one hauler - with this changes I really should use 4 macks instead... and haul 5 times per hour instead of 20+ ... I bet it's even worse If I can squeeze in 3 MLU's into each mack..



you'll get more ore/hour mining in 4 hulks and swapping to a hauler than you will running 3 macks. if you put the effort in you'll get the rewards.
Meolyne
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-07-29 18:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Meolyne
it hurted my eyes when i tried to read it. I edited the table. didn't changed any number and added the ore hold, but don't know if the skill was taken in, because i don't have time to test it.


ship__module_____xtal_____activation__mining amount____# lasers____m3 per hour____Ore Hold m3
skiff____t2____laser t2 xtal___104.06_____4,448.48__________1________153,897.06_____17 500___
skiff____t1_______laser_____104.06_____3,812.98___________1________131,911.67_____17 500___
skiff____t2____DeepC t2 xtal_104.06_____2,427.24__________1________83,971.40______17 500___
skiff____ice________________56.85______1,000.00__________1________63,324.54______17 500___

mack____t2___laser t2 xtal___104.06_____2,424.42__________2________167,747.68_____37 500___
mack____t1______laser______104.06_____2,078.07__________2________143,783.43_____37 500___
mack____t2___DeepC t2 xtal_104.06_____1,322.85__________2________91,529.12______37 500___
mack____ice_______________103.46_____1,000.00__________2________69,592.11+_____37 500___

hulk_____t2___laser t2 xtal___104.06_____1,867.65__________3________193,836.44______7 500___
hulk_____t1_____laser_______104.06_____1,600.85__________3________166,146.26______7 500___
hulk_____t2___DeepC t2 xtal_104.06_____1,019.06__________3________105,764.44______7 500___
hulk_____ice_______________143.62_____1,000.00__________3________75,198.44_______7 500___


Feel free to re-edit the table. Thank you Axe for numbers :)
Dave Stark
#9 - 2012-07-29 20:23:16 UTC
this thread needs updating, the hulk just got one of the yield bonuses changed to 5%/level up from 3%. extra 10% yield for the hulk!
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-07-29 21:16:31 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Okey, so thank you CCP for driving me into afk - mining.

I use 3 hulks and one hauler - with this changes I really should use 4 macks instead... and haul 5 times per hour instead of 20+ ... I bet it's even worse If I can squeeze in 3 MLU's into each mack..



you'll get more ore/hour mining in 4 hulks and swapping to a hauler than you will running 3 macks. if you put the effort in you'll get the rewards.


Could work with an Orca - so 30 days ahead.
Dave Stark
#11 - 2012-07-29 21:29:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Ooda wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Okey, so thank you CCP for driving me into afk - mining.

I use 3 hulks and one hauler - with this changes I really should use 4 macks instead... and haul 5 times per hour instead of 20+ ... I bet it's even worse If I can squeeze in 3 MLU's into each mack..



you'll get more ore/hour mining in 4 hulks and swapping to a hauler than you will running 3 macks. if you put the effort in you'll get the rewards.


Could work with an Orca - so 30 days ahead.


with the current hulk buff hulk/orca comes out equal to 2 macks i think i worked it out to earlier... will double check that one later.

2 macks come out on top in terms of m3/hour but only by 10k m3 per hour, and that doesn't include time for the macks to dock up and unload.
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-07-29 21:38:45 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Okey, so thank you CCP for driving me into afk - mining.

I use 3 hulks and one hauler - with this changes I really should use 4 macks instead... and haul 5 times per hour instead of 20+ ... I bet it's even worse If I can squeeze in 3 MLU's into each mack..



you'll get more ore/hour mining in 4 hulks and swapping to a hauler than you will running 3 macks. if you put the effort in you'll get the rewards.


Could work with an Orca - so 30 days ahead.


with the current hulk buff hulk/orca comes out equal to 2 macks i think i worked it out to earlier... will double check that one later.

2 macks come out on top in terms of m3/hour but only by 10k m3 per hour, and that doesn't include time for the macks to dock up and unload.


Well, the hulk buff changes everything.. damn - I should have saved up some skillpoints..
Dave Stark
#13 - 2012-07-29 21:41:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Ooda wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Ooda wrote:
Okey, so thank you CCP for driving me into afk - mining.

I use 3 hulks and one hauler - with this changes I really should use 4 macks instead... and haul 5 times per hour instead of 20+ ... I bet it's even worse If I can squeeze in 3 MLU's into each mack..



you'll get more ore/hour mining in 4 hulks and swapping to a hauler than you will running 3 macks. if you put the effort in you'll get the rewards.


Could work with an Orca - so 30 days ahead.


with the current hulk buff hulk/orca comes out equal to 2 macks i think i worked it out to earlier... will double check that one later.

2 macks come out on top in terms of m3/hour but only by 10k m3 per hour, and that doesn't include time for the macks to dock up and unload.


Well, the hulk buff changes everything.. damn - I should have saved up some skillpoints..


the orca fleet bonuses count for a lot.
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-07-29 21:52:39 UTC
Dave stark wrote:


the orca fleet bonuses count for a lot.


I usually have Rorq-support.
Arele
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-07-30 03:49:50 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
this thread needs updating, the hulk just got one of the yield bonuses changed to 5%/level up from 3%. extra 10% yield for the hulk!

I don't see any 3 > 5% yield boost for the hulk posted anywhere. That newest pastebin bonus is listed on ORE3, which is tied to a 5% resist modifier for all four damage types, and is listed for each of the exhumers as 5 now.

Am I missing something?
Dave Stark
#16 - 2012-07-30 06:51:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Arele wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
this thread needs updating, the hulk just got one of the yield bonuses changed to 5%/level up from 3%. extra 10% yield for the hulk!

I don't see any 3 > 5% yield boost for the hulk posted anywhere. That newest pastebin bonus is listed on ORE3, which is tied to a 5% resist modifier for all four damage types, and is listed for each of the exhumers as 5 now.

Am I missing something?



*shrug* i'm not really sure how to read those paste bin things but it says 3 => 5, the resistances were never at 3 or 5 so i don't get how it's tied to those.

although it did seem a bit too good to be true i suppose.

edit
  • shipBonusORE3: -3.0 => -5.0

    • surely if that was shield resists bonus it'd be -7.5 -> -0.5 ?

    anyway i found it here.
    Arele
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #17 - 2012-07-30 08:50:04 UTC
    Dave stark wrote:
    Arele wrote:
    Dave stark wrote:
    this thread needs updating, the hulk just got one of the yield bonuses changed to 5%/level up from 3%. extra 10% yield for the hulk!

    I don't see any 3 > 5% yield boost for the hulk posted anywhere. That newest pastebin bonus is listed on ORE3, which is tied to a 5% resist modifier for all four damage types, and is listed for each of the exhumers as 5 now.

    Am I missing something?



    *shrug* i'm not really sure how to read those paste bin things but it says 3 => 5, the resistances were never at 3 or 5 so i don't get how it's tied to those.

    although it did seem a bit too good to be true i suppose.

    edit
  • shipBonusORE3: -3.0 => -5.0

    • surely if that was shield resists bonus it'd be -7.5 -> -0.5 ?

    anyway i found it here.

    The resist bonus was tied to something else on the hull table wise, but ORE3 is now the new modifier they're using. Ignore what the description says in the info window, they haven't updated it yet. You can easily confirm it by jumping in a covetor, then a hulk, your EM Resist will go from 0% > 25%, or 20% if you're exhumer 4.

    As well you can do the quick math and what the strip miners are showing reflects the current 1.25x1.25x1.15x1.15 skill bonuses in effect. If the hulk was now doing 5% / lvl to yields that last value would be 1.25.

    I don't see them touching the hulks yield, it's already high enough baseline in relation to the other two. The problem isn't with the yield, it's with the castration of the cargo hold solely due to crystal sizes. Functionally it's exactly the same as a TQ hulk fitting wise, can fit the same triple 0.0 BS tank setup. The only negatives now are if you're pushing ice or mercoxit, you're losing a rig slot that many put a cap rig in, and the recharge rate suffered a decent nerf. Since the CPU rigs became available the overall fit costs dropped as you haven't needed to use dead space resistance amps to save CPU, but that's a minor gripe.

    The mack should have it's third low slot removed. It serves no logical purpose for the role they envision, other then to erode 9% more into a hulks niche due to everyone that will be fitting a third MLUII. It's currently the ultimate low APM miner with a respectable yield, that hull doesn't need a third MLU to be of use to players.

    The skiff is a little ball of awesome for some niches now. The only negative is the removal of the native +2 warp core strength, but it still retains the excellent agility and base speed. This is a perfect wormhole miner, aligning more then twice as fast as a hulk. It could also enable some of the more brazen lowsec dwellers to have a chance of not loldying to anything that lands a warp in to a belt. As well, if you're a very risk averse 0.0 miner, you can beat the login dictors before they even drop out of emergency warp. I don't personally care about the HP values as barges in 0.0 tend to be binary, they either die to a dictor bubble login trap, or they don't. For highsec, obviously they dissuade all but the most ardent of suicide gankers, so if mining scordite in .5 every day is your thing then that's about the best present you could have hoped to get with the changes.

    They still need to rework the BPO/C component costs of the barges and exhumers so the base costs are similar. I could see that coming on patch day though, as they usually don't like to announce value changes.

    Overall I think the changes are decently thought out, but there need to be some minor fixes and some renewed focus given to why mining crystals need to be m³ hogs. The next thing to tackle are the capital industrials; cargo / orebay sizing relationships, the nightmare known as juggling around ore compression lines, and if they really want rorquals to only operate as POS anchors due to no sane person ever going into siege outside a POS shield, since it's required for them to be of any worth over an orca skill bonus wise.
    Dave Stark
    #18 - 2012-07-30 08:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
    i'm fully aware of the shield changes, however the number 3 was in no way tied to the shields to begin with. also exhumer has nothing to do with it, the shield bonus is based on barge level which is a prereq at V for exhumers.

    the only bonus at 3% was yield.
    P3po
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #19 - 2012-08-01 17:33:30 UTC
    Hey.

    Does someone have new yield numbers for ice with the rigs installed ? Or are they not released yet ?

    Also did the hulk get improved yield or not ? :D
    Dave Stark
    #20 - 2012-08-01 18:26:45 UTC
    P3po wrote:
    Hey.

    Does someone have new yield numbers for ice with the rigs installed ? Or are they not released yet ?

    Also did the hulk get improved yield or not ? :D


    hulk yield is the same, ice yield for the hulk will be a fraction of a block less per hour than the current mack (rounded or truncated it's exactly equal to the current mack)
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