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Barge Fairy Tale

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1821 - 2012-07-29 10:30:09 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If you suspect someone of doing it, petition them. Otherwise, bitching about it here accomplishes nothing.


I am not 'bitching', I don't even mine. I support the buff of mining barges though since ganking is getting out of control. The sad thing is that people don't see that they are being manipulated by the alliance who controls the minerals required to make the barges. The buff to the tanks will help make that monopoly not as profitable as it currently is.


Its not any worse now than in the past 9 years.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1822 - 2012-07-29 10:34:26 UTC
Alexzandvar Douglass wrote:
T2 Barges with the update are supposed to reflect the added cost in "Upgrading" from a regular mining barge with added tank and yield. Not to mention every single suicide gank iv seen in my EVE career has been simply about a small quick buck or just getting good kill mails.

Not to mention what about the Ice miners in 0.0? A Mackinaw right now can't tank the rats in almost any Ice belt, while a hulk preforms excellent in a regular belt.

CCP Please, listen the Miners on this one and not the people who get the jollies off on taking advantage of the Mackinaws Poor tank.


Tanking is what the skiff is going to be for not the mackBlink
Rats
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1823 - 2012-07-29 11:02:48 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
Oh he mad.


But is he wrong?

Nope.

Fitted properly, a Hulk cannot be profitably ganked.



Awwwwww guess its time for the gankers to cry now Big smile

Ganker tears the best tears P

Tal


I Fought the Law, and the Law Won... Talon Silverhawk
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1824 - 2012-07-29 11:29:02 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Get over your preconceived notion that mining ships must be profitable gank targets.


They're not profitable gank targets unless the Miners choose to hold a bullseye over their face.


No, "profitability" isn't that big an issue to most. It's getting more expensive kills cheaply - without anyone seeing that they lost anything in their "KB stats". 5 BC's ganking a single hulk... each PERSON involved will only show a hulk kill - no loss info shows.

If you want a really funny fix from CCP on this - they setup a NPC killboard. Which NPC factions have killed what pilots in which type of ships. NO competition with main killboards which only show player vs player losses.

Seeing ImUbahGankah showing 500 transport kills... Then checking the NPC boards to find 2300 losses to CONCORD would be worth its weight in laughs. Seeing Serpentis, Angles, etc showing 50 carrier kills, 10 supercap kills ... Yeah, that would be funny as hell and bring an end to your "Nobody will know I lost anything" gank failures.

Seeing the ACTUAL success and failure rates for gankers would remove a lot of "you can't prevent it. They know..." supposed psychic bullshit that too many players buy into about gankers. They fail - a lot. It's just those failures tend to be hidding 99% of the time and even their successes don't *PUBLICALLY* show them losing anything. It would also mitigate a lot of attitude about how "safe" PvE is in EVE.
Senyu Takashi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1825 - 2012-07-29 11:38:44 UTC
Mocam wrote:




If you want a really funny fix from CCP on this - they setup a NPC killboard. Which NPC factions have killed what pilots in which type of ships. NO competition with main killboards which only show player vs player losses.

Seeing ImUbahGankah showing 500 transport kills... Then checking the NPC boards to find 2300 losses to CONCORD would be worth its weight in laughs. Seeing Serpentis, Angles, etc showing 50 carrier kills, 10 supercap kills ... Yeah, that would be funny as hell and bring an end to your "Nobody will know I lost anything" gank failures.



Now that would be awesome! Big smile
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1826 - 2012-07-29 12:06:39 UTC
Rats wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Marconus Orion wrote:
Oh he mad.


But is he wrong?

Nope.

Fitted properly, a Hulk cannot be profitably ganked.



Awwwwww guess its time for the gankers to cry now Big smile

Ganker tears the best tears P

Tal




We can still gank you for profitBlink
Tiamet Cordova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1827 - 2012-07-29 12:07:30 UTC
Its pretty obvious the anger over the buffs given to barges is by the camp of semi pathetic bottom dwelling pvp(sorta) gankers....

If scuicide ganks is the only way you get your kicks...well honestly nothing has changed in terms of it being possible. IT JUST BECAME MORE EXPENSIVE. The stereotypical moron will compare this buff to the ganking of hulks and blah blah "Oh Em GEE you buffed barges wtf dis is gunna bi World uv Werkraft sune!"


The buffs largely are to change the structured use of barges in general. Its pretty obvious 90% of miners go from Frig-Cruiser-(BC/BS or Retriever) then into a hulk. This isn't the linear path CCP wants which was the primary reason for the changes to barges.

secondly...Barges simply were too squishy an typical retriever can be killed in 6-9 seconds by a destroyer on a trial account with under a week of training...actually with about 6 days total(or even less)


options for defense are few and it seems that ccp is looking for a diff outcome. did Retrievers need a BS EHP buff..hell no... I think the problem would have been solved by adding a little grid and cpu to open up the option for a minor tank.... something to bring the effective hp past cruiser and just short of battlecruiser. Unfortunately anytime there is a hole in a system it will get exposed with over exploitation of the hole. If people who were ganking barges and mining ships simply did it and kept quiet this part of the buff may not even be here.

Hulkageddon,widespread can flipping and other typical roid belt nuisances are as much at fault for the changes as the whining,crying people who are constantly getting ganked/canflipped etc.


Miners needed another option to store and move ore other than an Orca and that explains the ore-bay. If you don't think can-flipping is also a part of the reason for some of the barge buffs... go to any roid belt in mid range high sec area...its completely littered with GSC(why? because GSC's are how you combat can flipping). Get some guy in a frig ******* with your can (even if you have a hauler moving ore out of the can as you place it in) you simply use a GSC because he cant get it out and you can transfer from barge to hauler hassle free.


say what you want about how to how you can fit a tank on your hulk to protect it and we all know that's just bogus. there is nothing you can do to protect your hulk from a suicide gank that another ganker wont make up for. 2 destroyers with t2 small calibur weapons could drop a hulk no problem.... I dont have an issue with this. The hulk should be the biggest baddest mining machine you can get your hands on... however it should be a glass cannon. Very fragile. If you want to fly a 300,000,000 isk ship with no protection thats a risk you are taking and you deserve any gank that comes along....


a retriever is a diff story do you know what your defensive options are for solo mining in a retriever when it comes to suicide ganks? : NONE. Actually you have 1. Use a battleship lose 10-12% overall yield and at least become gank proof to trial account solo pilots.

this was never the intent for mining. While i think the buffs are a bit much ill happily take them and dock both battleships i mine in and move to hulk,retriever,Retriever,Reteiever,Orca 5 account setup.


Im interested in other opinions tho. (both ways)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1828 - 2012-07-29 12:09:07 UTC
Mocam wrote:


No, "profitability" isn't that big an issue to most. It's getting more expensive kills cheaply - without anyone seeing that they lost anything in their "KB stats". 5 BC's ganking a single hulk... each PERSON involved will only show a hulk kill - no loss info shows.


Not true. My corp has over 1000 losses from the ice interdiction showing on our KB.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1829 - 2012-07-29 12:13:50 UTC
Tiamet Cordova wrote:



Im interested in other opinions tho. (both ways)


CCP have rolled back the HP buff to something far better. Before the latest change there was no point in getting a skiff because the two other exhumers could tank far too much. Now the skiff has a roll to fill and miners will continue to require to fit a tank of they will be a tempting target for a ganker.

The t1 barges are all in good shape too as they can now fit a good tank.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1830 - 2012-07-29 12:16:36 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If you suspect someone of doing it, petition them. Otherwise, bitching about it here accomplishes nothing.


I am not 'bitching', I don't even mine. I support the buff of mining barges though since ganking is getting out of control. The sad thing is that people don't see that they are being manipulated by the alliance who controls the minerals required to make the barges. The buff to the tanks will help make that monopoly not as profitable as it currently is.


So you are saying that I am a tool being manipulated by Goons because I gank miners?

What if I just like punishing bad players? What if I like ruining someone's evening?


Then just the part about you being a tool applies :P
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#1831 - 2012-07-29 12:46:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
CCP have rolled back the HP buff to something far better. Before the latest change there was no point in getting a skiff because the two other exhumers could tank far too much. Now the skiff has a roll to fill and miners will continue to require to fit a tank of they will be a tempting target for a ganker.

The t1 barges are all in good shape too as they can now fit a good tank.

Could you please post the changes, or at least summarize them? Can't check at the moment, and I'm sure others are interested too.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Dave Stark
#1832 - 2012-07-29 12:50:53 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP have rolled back the HP buff to something far better. Before the latest change there was no point in getting a skiff because the two other exhumers could tank far too much. Now the skiff has a roll to fill and miners will continue to require to fit a tank of they will be a tempting target for a ganker.

The t1 barges are all in good shape too as they can now fit a good tank.

Could you please post the changes, or at least summarize them? Can't check at the moment, and I'm sure others are interested too.


iirc shield/armour/structure hp is going up, but the resist bonuses are 5% not 7.5%/mining barge level now.
Tiamet Cordova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1833 - 2012-07-29 13:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiamet Cordova
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP have rolled back the HP buff to something far better. Before the latest change there was no point in getting a skiff because the two other exhumers could tank far too much. Now the skiff has a roll to fill and miners will continue to require to fit a tank of they will be a tempting target for a ganker.

The t1 barges are all in good shape too as they can now fit a good tank.

Could you please post the changes, or at least summarize them? Can't check at the moment, and I'm sure others are interested too.


  • Retriever
    • [-|y] shipMiningBonusORE2
    [+|n] iceHarvesterCapacitorNeedMultiplier
    [+|n] iceHarvesterDurationMultiplier
    [+|n] miningYieldMultiplyPassive
    [+|n] shipBonusOreHoldORE2
    [-] shipBonusORE3: -3.0
  • armorHP: 625.0 => 3200.0
  • capacity: 2000.0 => 350.0
  • cpuOutput: 125.0 => 235.0
  • hp: 938.0 => 3500.0
  • lowSlots: 2.0 => 3.0
  • shieldCapacity: 391.0 => 3800.0
  • shieldRechargeRate: 625000.0 => 1500000.0
  • shipBonusORE2: 3.0 => 10.0
  • signatureRadius: 120.0 => 250.0
    • [+] iceHarvestCycleBonus: 0.6666
    [+] miningAmountMultiplier: 1.5
    [+] specialOreHoldCapacity: 20000.0

    The Retriever is a mining barge with an extensive ore bay.

    Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
    10% bonus to ore hold capacity

    Role Bonus:
    50% bonus to Strip Miner yield
    33.33% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use

    Development
    The mining barge was designed by ORE to facilitate advancing the mining profession to a new level. Each barge was created to excel at a specific function, the Retriever's being storage. Although it only has space to fit two mining or ice harvesting modules, a fast loading system allows those two module to do the work of three modules.
    Mining barges are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining and Ice Harvesting modules.



    Yes you read this right 20k ore bay 3200 Armor 3800 shield on the retriever(will post others also)


    These are not final changes btw they may or maynot be modified/edited or rolled back alltogether
    Tiamet Cordova
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1834 - 2012-07-29 13:06:43 UTC

  • Covetor
    • [+|n] shipBonusIceHarvesterDurationORE3
  • armorHP: 1250.0 => 1800.0
  • capacity: 4000.0 => 500.0
  • cpuOutput: 200.0 => 255.0
  • hp: 1875.0 => 2000.0
  • shieldCapacity: 781.0 => 2200.0
  • shieldRechargeRate: 625000.0 => 1000000.0
  • shipBonusORE2: 3.0 => 4.0
    • [+] specialOreHoldCapacity: 7000.0

    The Covetor is a mining barge with superb mining yield.

    Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
    4% bonus to Strip Miner yield
    3% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

    Development
    The mining barge was designed by ORE to facilitate advancing the mining profession to a new level. Each barge was created to excel at a specific function, the Covetor's being mining yield. This additional yield comes at a price, as the Covetor has weaker defenses and a smaller ore bay than the other mining barges.
    Mining barges are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining and Ice Harvesting modules.

  • Procurer
    • [-|y] shipMiningBonusORE2
    [+|n] iceHarvesterCapacitorNeedMultiplier
    [+|n] iceHarvesterDurationMultiplier
    [+|n] miningYieldMultiplyPassive
    [+|n] shipBonusShieldCapacityORE2
    [-] shipBonusORE3: -3.0
  • armorHP: 313.0 => 5000.0
  • capacitorCapacity: 187.5 => 800.0
  • capacity: 1000.0 => 350.0
  • cpuOutput: 125.0 => 250.0
  • hp: 469.0 => 5500.0
  • powerOutput: 35.0 => 45.0
  • shieldCapacity: 195.0 => 6000.0
  • shieldRechargeRate: 625000.0 => 2500000.0
  • shipBonusORE2: 3.0 => 5.0
  • signatureRadius: 90.0 => 200.0
    • [+] iceHarvestCycleBonus: 0.3333
    [+] miningAmountMultiplier: 3.0
    [+] specialOreHoldCapacity: 15000.0

    The Procurer is a mining barge with exceptional defensive capabilities.

    Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
    5% bonus to shield hit points

    Role Bonus:
    200% bonus to Strip Miner yield
    66.66% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use

    Development
    The mining barge was designed by ORE to facilitate advancing the mining profession to a whole new level. Each barge was created to excel at a specific function, the Procurer's being durability. With that in mind, the designers could only make space to fit one mining or ice harvesting module. To mitigate the effect this would have on the ship's mining output, they came up with a unique loading system that allows this one module to work at triple efficiency.
    Mining barges are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining and Ice Harvesting modules.
    Tiamet Cordova
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1835 - 2012-07-29 13:07:02 UTC

  • Hulk
  • armorHP: 1013.0 => 2300.0
  • capacity: 8000.0 => 500.0
  • eliteBonusBarge2: -3.0 => -4.0
  • hp: 2531.0 => 2500.0
  • shieldCapacity: 1519.0 => 2700.0
  • shieldRechargeRate: 625000.0 => 1000000.0
    • [+] specialOreHoldCapacity: 7500.0

    The Hulk is a mining barge with superb mining yield.

    Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
    3% bonus to Strip Miner yield
    7.5% bonus to all shield resistances

    Exhumer skill bonus per level:
    3% bonus to Strip Miner yield
    4% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

    Development
    The exhumer is the second generation of mining vessels created by ORE. Exhumers, like their mining barge cousins, were each created to excel at a specific function, the Hulk's being mining yield. The additional yield comes at a price, as the Hulk has weaker defenses and a smaller ore bay than the other exhumers.
    Exhumers are equipped with electronic subsystems specifically designed to accommodate Strip Mining and Ice Harvesting modules.


  • Mackinaw
    • [-|y] iceHarvestCycleTimeModulesRequiringIceHarvesting
    [-|y] iceHarvesterMiningAmountBonusMultiplier
    [-|y] shipMiningBonusORE2
    [+|y] eliteBonusBargeMiningYield
    [+|n] iceHarvesterCapacitorNeedMultiplier
    [+|n] iceHarvesterDurationMultiplier
    [+|n] miningYieldMultiplyPassive
    [+|n] shipBonusOreHoldORE2
    [-] shipBonusORE3: -3.0
  • armorHP: 788.0 => 3700.0
  • capacity: 6000.0 => 350.0
  • cpuOutput: 198.0 => 270.0
  • eliteBonusBarge1: 10.0 => 1.0
  • eliteBonusBarge2: -5.0 => -1.0
  • hp: 1266.0 => 4000.0
  • iceHarvestCycleBonus: 25.0 => 0.6666
  • lowSlots: 2.0 => 3.0
  • miningAmountMultiplier: 2.0 => 1.5
  • shieldCapacity: 1181.0 => 4300.0
  • shieldRechargeRate: 625000.0 => 1500000.0
  • shipBonusORE2: 3.0 => 10.0
  • signatureRadius: 120.0 => 250.0
    • [+] specialOreHoldCapacity: 25000.0

    The Mackinaw is an exhumer with an extensive ore bay.

    Mining Barge skill bonus per level:
    10% bonus to ore hold capacity
    7.5% bonus to all shield resistances

    Exhumer skill bonus per level:
    1% bonus to Strip Miner yield
    1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

    Role Bonus:
    50% bonus to Strip Miner yield
    33.33%
    La Nariz
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #1836 - 2012-07-29 13:48:21 UTC
    Drop the resist bonuses and they'd be fine.

    This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
    Taranius De Consolville
    Doomheim
    #1837 - 2012-07-29 13:55:38 UTC
    Herr Wilkus wrote:
    Well played, CCP.
    Your DEVs/balancing team apparently have the reasoning ability of small children so I'll put this in terms they will understand.

    **********
    "Once upon a time there were three little miners. They ventured into the big wide world to earn their fortunes.

    The First Little Miner went to Jita and fit his Hulk with Cargo Expanders.
    This way, he could AFK mine with a minimum of effort and fuss. It left the miner plenty of freetime to daydream, jerk off, and watch Japanese Anime while earning ISK.

    ....Then along came the Big Bad Ganker in a Catalyst, saying "Little miner, little miner, I'm going to ******* do you in."
    The first miner, predictably, was tabbed out and said nothing.
    So the Ganker loaded and overheated and blew the Hulk in, and splattered the pod, too.

    The Second Little Miner went to Jita, bought MLU's and a hauler.
    This way, he could mine faster than anyone else - and become quite wealthy in no time. It was a bit more work, of course, but he kept himself entertained chatting in local with his neighbors.

    ...Then along came the Big Bad Ganker, in a Tornado, saying "Little miner, little miner, I'm going to ******* do you in."
    The second miner, said "Not by the hair of my chinny, chin chin," aligns, and turned on his Small Booster II.
    So the Ganker loaded and overheated and blew the Hulk in. The frightened miner flees in his pod, broke, but alive.

    The Third Little Miner went to Jita and fit his Hulk with a DCII, MSE, Invulnerability Fields, and Shield Extender Rigs. Wisely, he sets his Hulk to orbit a nearby asteroid, and always kept an wary eye on his surroundings.

    ...Then along came the Big Bad Ganker, in a T2 Talos, saying "Little miner, little miner, I'm going to ******* do you in."
    The Third miner chuckles to himself, overheats his Invulnerability Fields and aligns to the nearest station.
    So the Ganker loaded, and overheated, and simply CANNOT blow the Hulk in.

    Defeated, the ganker slinks off in his pod, and the smart little Miner scoops the Talos wreckage and sells it for a tidy profit."

    THE END
    **********

    Cargo Hulk, Yield Hulk, Tank Hulk, those were the choices - all with drawbacks.

    Cargo - for a Hybrid Exhumer/Hauler, with a risky AFK 'cruise control' option.
    Yield - to maximize returns with friends providing transport.
    Tank - 30-40K EHP to discourage/thwart gankers.
    (and really, one could still put up a reasonable tank on either Cargo or Yield fit Hulks, if they used the mid-slots....Roll)

    But choices are dangerous things. Given the choice, miners will take cargo/yield every time - and then throw a tantrum when they are ganked. The rare, clever miner who tanked his Hulk; well, he weathered the storm - and reaped the benefits as mineral prices rose.

    But throw that out the window, just give the whining miners all three. Notice how CCP put quite a bit of care into saving miners from their own bad choices.

    This is more than a buff - this is CCP acknowledging that miners, as a group, are too stupid to make the correct fitting choices.

    Step 1: Idiot miners don't even use the slots they have - so slap stupid amounts of EHP directly to the hull, rather than give them additional slots/PG or CPU. Frigate-size Skiff, Orca EHP. Really?

    Step 2: Idiot miners keep sacking their EHP with Cargo Expanders - so make Cargo Expanders pointless with the Ore Bay.
    (And I doubt the DEVs will get around to fixing the 'special cargo bays don't drop loot' bug, either - simply because fixing THAT bug would benefit the wrong kinds of players, I suppose.....)

    So, good game, CCP.
    Good to know we are still steaming, full speed ahead! - towards Hello-Kitty highsec, a paradise for bots and stupidass gameplay. Hard to hear myself say it, but I'm now officially nostalgic for the days of Incarna and WiS development. At least back then, the DEVs were merely wasting their own time. Roll


    cry more
    Vaerah Vahrokha
    Vahrokh Consulting
    #1838 - 2012-07-29 15:06:07 UTC
    La Nariz wrote:
    Drop the resist bonuses and they'd be fine.


    Like, deceive the miners with fat display stats values while in reality nothing changes?

    EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
    Tiamet Cordova
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1839 - 2012-07-29 15:16:04 UTC
    Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
    La Nariz wrote:
    Drop the resist bonuses and they'd be fine.


    Like, deceive the miners with fat display stats values while in reality nothing changes?



    i dont know what youre reading the the change pretty much stomps out a large hole in the nagging complaint of suicide ganks. with the lowest ranges of barges going from 3k to well into 15k+ effective health they have become virtualy solo gank proof by trial accounts.... it looks like their almost doubling the cpu and adding slots also adding the ability for even more survivability....damage control ii goes a long way. i think its a drastic overbuff
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #1840 - 2012-07-29 15:20:13 UTC
    Tiamet Cordova wrote:
    i think its a drastic overbuff

    Seems to me that's a drastic change from your earlier position.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)