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PvE vs PvP .... Why?
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Mystic Lore Arcanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-07-29 12:56:40 UTC
(It's a simple thing to get your head around really, although I can hear the Tsunami of NO approaching.)

Why is PvE and PvP so different in a game like this?

Wouldn't it be far better to just rebalance the Missions, Belt Ratz, and such to having the same comparable offensive and defensive capacities that the Players have?

I say let the only difference be NPC AI vs Players, just rebalance the missions to a small handful of NPC's, do away with the Mission Blobs of NPC RED. If you want to Solo, then you can probably handle L1-2, but once you start into L3's you should be needing a few friends to fly with. It would also be to encourage PvP style ship fittings and tactics. That would balance the game quite nicely, and it would better prepare folks for PvP Combat since there would be no substantial difference other than AI vs Player unpredictability.

Now.... Unleash the Trolls.... my Tear Bucket is at the ready.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-07-29 13:21:27 UTC
pvp is constantly evolving, npcs are static

let's say CCP makes a new lvl3 mission: kill a single angel cynabal which keeps kiting you and will warp away when you try to get a point on it.

apart from the thousands of ship losses this would cause during the first few weeks, it would only take one single guy in all of eve to figure out the optimal way to complete this mission, share his findings on eve-survival and the mission would be permanently "solved".

.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-07-29 13:23:25 UTC
Show me any game where the NPC victims have similar capabilities as the PC characters.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Mystic Lore Arcanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-07-29 13:25:03 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
pvp is constantly evolving, npcs are static

let's say CCP makes a new lvl3 mission: kill a single angel cynabal which keeps kiting you and will warp away when you try to get a point on it.

apart from the thousands of ship losses this would cause during the first few weeks, it would only take one single guy in all of eve to figure out the optimal way to complete this mission, share his findings on eve-survival and the mission would be permanently "solved".



YES!!!

And then others can practice the "Art" of tackling a Cynabal....
It would be of course worth as much in Bounties, LP's, and Standings as a full mission of that difficulty.

But Yes, Why Not?
Mystic Lore Arcanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-07-29 13:26:22 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Show me any game where the NPC victims have similar capabilities as the PC characters.


Show me another game like EvE Online...

Why should EvE be "just another game..."?
Lexmana
#6 - 2012-07-29 13:26:41 UTC
You die all the time in PvP. Some people don't like to die. Making PVE hard would not please them in anyway.
Ginger Barbarella
#7 - 2012-07-29 13:40:26 UTC
I'm with you, OP: why not? You have to take into account noobs and industry types, but adding regular CONCORD or Navy patrols of belts to keep the mining community happy and areas to keep noobs safe would allow this kind of measured opponents in-game. As capsuleers we run in gang or solo; Incursions are supposed to be gangs (for the most part) also, and running missions is supposed to separate the cream-of-the-crop of capsuleers from the chafe, so why not?

But people like being able to kill their Red Crosses with impunity, and taking a battleship, supposedly one of the most powerful and fearsome of ships in the Eve Universe, against Blood frigates and cruisers is a big, manly thing to do! And let's not forget Eve-Survival.com: people want a quick kill to boost epeen. I guess cheating with eve-survival is part of the game.

But having more than one person run agent missions is just against the nature of the peeveepee game, no? Cool

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Quintila
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-07-29 13:46:06 UTC
I agree with OP on this one, I have been a mission runner from the birth of my character and only just starting to try PVP.

It would be a very good way to learn and practice how to fit ships and fly them for PVP.

Yes you would find out the best way to do this in the long run but then way not in mission brief just tell you what class of ship i.e. Frig, BC, BS and then have a random fit to go with ships.

Just my opinion.
Possum's Awesome
Foxtrot Uniform Charlie Kilo
#9 - 2012-07-29 14:01:34 UTC
Mystic Lore Arcanium wrote:
If you want to Solo, then you can probably handle L1-2



Who can handle lvl 1-2s solo under your system? newbie players still learning modules, fittings, and training? or "elite" carebears in their 10bill isk SNIs and ravens?

Rather than tears, I think you're more in store for withering scorn and snorts of derision. Mission running is a painless way of isk making, pvp is what you spend that isk on. That's why there's a difference.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-07-29 14:21:18 UTC
+1 this idea. It'd be really sweet to see a larger number of people who don't have their heads up their asses. Maybe we'll stop seeing Drakes with purger rigs and no points on lossmails.

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Russell Casey
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-07-29 14:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Russell Casey
Lvl 4s were originally meant to be group content. People just figured out how to solo them.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#12 - 2012-07-29 14:36:41 UTC
Sounds good at first, but...

There is a huge difference in the capabilities of new players vs older ones. Belt rats that would be a challenge to an experienced player would make belts death zones for newer players, locking them out of content for months after subscribing.

Missions would have the same issue: They actually got to be completable by new players.

CCP did some of what you suggest with Sleepers and Incursions. The idea here was that a new AI deserved new content, not just a revamping of the same old stuff. The result? Players learn how to do the content with low losses, totally unlike PvP where you die as often as you do not. Also the goal of an incursion fleet having a PvP like fit really did not happen, although they are closer than a mission fit.

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Spy 21
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-07-29 14:47:31 UTC
Like the idea from the perspective of having PVE-PVP fits not being so radically different. Every mission ship fit with a point and a tank that can handle the huge short term burst of DPS you get when trying to take down a single opponent. Takes a bit of the WTF-ness out of being in a mission and finding yourself face to face with another player trying to kill you.

As for newbs being befuddled by PVP tactics I don't see that. The current batch of tutorial missions have the brand new players fitting warp scramblers and webs for a couple of the combat missions and actually using them to hold an opponent in place. It's not a skill that requires months of gameplay to learn. The reason most people never learn the nuances of pvp tactics early on is that they simply do not need to.

Plus 1 this idea.

S

Obfuscation for the WIN on page 3...
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#14 - 2012-07-29 14:50:41 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Show me any game where the NPC victims have similar capabilities as the PC characters.


There are no MMOs with NPCs *as good as* players but certainly they have them hugely better than EvE AI.

2003: Istaria MMO: maybe one of the first MMOs where NPCs would "message" each other, form a group with healer, tank, crowd controller and DPS (multiple of them if available) and gang against 1 player. Of course the healers were quite though and would also resurrect the dead NPCs. Their attacks were very straightforward though. This phenomenon was expecially tangible in the so called Sathyr Islands.

Darkfall Online MMO: has pretty sick NPCs. They not only gang up but (I admit I only had experience as a newbie there) also would hit quite hard and in that game whoever you are (even newbie) you drop all your loot, all your gear *and* all your money. Some of them would do some basic kiting, would run back to their spawn and call reinforcements, some of them would climb on scenery and be harder to target. Their attacks were less straightforward than the above.

Guild Wars2: the training PvP area (The Mists) sports duel NPCs. While they are far from being good, they can still quickly and easily kill the players. They know how to dodge attacks, how to get in line of sight when you try hide, they use abundant crowd control and some of them self healing. Some of them summon and use pets.

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Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#15 - 2012-07-29 14:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
The value of this is to teach good PVP awareness.

To learn what is happening when someone is kiting you.

To learn what is happening when someone is speed tanking you.

To learn what is happening when an NPC/Player is receiving logistics, identify the issue and resolve.

It wouldn't be a good way to do anything other than to demonstrate what an opponent can do and what you can copy in a more "Real" situation. The major obstacle with this is that there are requirements for PVP that you must have in place when you are in a PVP environment, even if you are doing PVE content, vs to requirements PVE content requires in "Safe" space such as High Sec.

Ultimately, in PVP environemnts you NEED a prop mod. You NEED to solve Environmental issues in your fittings that a PVP safe zone does not make requirements of you to do because of players different options.

So even if you were to make PVE "more like" PVP, you would have different solutions come out because the environment is inherently NOT PVP capable.

Where I am.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-07-29 15:04:00 UTC
Sounds like the first step towards arena based pvp, which i don't really think is that well suited for the eve universe.

Making the opponent npc based is going to result in series of patterns that players are going to prepare for, and cookie cutter fits will emerge over time. Now player carry around different types of resist, and many drones and ammo for different missions. It would just add the need to bring more modules for optimal fitting for each mission.

The only lasting design would be players fighting players, but i think that would have a huge negative effect on the rest of the game.


I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#17 - 2012-07-29 15:48:59 UTC
Mystic Lore Arcanium wrote:
(It's a simple thing to get your head around really, although I can hear the Tsunami of NO approaching.)

Why is PvE and PvP so different in a game like this?

Wouldn't it be far better to just rebalance the Missions, Belt Ratz, and such to having the same comparable offensive and defensive capacities that the Players have?

I say let the only difference be NPC AI vs Players, just rebalance the missions to a small handful of NPC's, do away with the Mission Blobs of NPC RED. If you want to Solo, then you can probably handle L1-2, but once you start into L3's you should be needing a few friends to fly with. It would also be to encourage PvP style ship fittings and tactics. That would balance the game quite nicely, and it would better prepare folks for PvP Combat since there would be no substantial difference other than AI vs Player unpredictability.

Now.... Unleash the Trolls.... my Tear Bucket is at the ready.


The first part of the idea sounds fine, albiet somewhat unrealitic to implement.

The part about rebalancing missions so solo players get reduced from 4s to 2s, that is just butt hurt and would never fly.

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Mystic Lore Arcanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-07-29 16:28:31 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Mystic Lore Arcanium wrote:
(It's a simple thing to get your head around really, although I can hear the Tsunami of NO approaching.)

Why is PvE and PvP so different in a game like this?

Wouldn't it be far better to just rebalance the Missions, Belt Ratz, and such to having the same comparable offensive and defensive capacities that the Players have?

I say let the only difference be NPC AI vs Players, just rebalance the missions to a small handful of NPC's, do away with the Mission Blobs of NPC RED. If you want to Solo, then you can probably handle L1-2, but once you start into L3's you should be needing a few friends to fly with. It would also be to encourage PvP style ship fittings and tactics. That would balance the game quite nicely, and it would better prepare folks for PvP Combat since there would be no substantial difference other than AI vs Player unpredictability.

Now.... Unleash the Trolls.... my Tear Bucket is at the ready.


The first part of the idea sounds fine, albiet somewhat unrealitic to implement.

The part about rebalancing missions so solo players get reduced from 4s to 2s, that is just butt hurt and would never fly.


Hmmm.... Solo pilots seem to get "butt hurt" all the time in lowsec and nullsec when they get hot dropped by a gang, if you can find a way to Solo one of those situations vs a group of NPC AI's, maybe, just maybe you can be a little less "butt hurt" when it happens in PvP.
Mystic Lore Arcanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-07-29 16:43:49 UTC
dexington wrote:
Sounds like the first step towards arena based pvp, which i don't really think is that well suited for the eve universe.

Making the opponent npc based is going to result in series of patterns that players are going to prepare for, and cookie cutter fits will emerge over time. Now player carry around different types of resist, and many drones and ammo for different missions. It would just add the need to bring more modules for optimal fitting for each mission.

The only lasting design would be players fighting players, but i think that would have a huge negative effect on the rest of the game.




Isn't one of the big issues with PvP the fact that there is "NO OPTIMAL FITTING"?
One of the benefits of my proposal is that the NPC fittings be randomized a bit, mix it up some, like they did with Incursions...
There should be some "fog of war" involved, it shouldn't be completely random mind you, but each Faction has strengths, they have weaknesses, and even in the PvP world, being able to recognize the enemy "inherent capabilities" is a crucial skill. A good example in PvP is an Ewar Pilot in a Scorpion or Falcon that can quickly identify which Racial Jammer to select for each target.
The Faction NPC's might be somewhat more predictable, but what if they bring Merc's? Who's ships will they bring? And Pirates? Never in History have pirates owned a fleet made to order, it has always been piecemeal.
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#20 - 2012-07-29 16:45:50 UTC
unrelated, in any case, lame idea with no real merit that solves nothing, therefore a waste of dev time, lets have the devs work on PvP not PvE.

I'm an American, English is my second language...
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