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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#421 - 2012-07-28 16:05:11 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
Gevlin wrote:
I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec

I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)

I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation.
I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)

Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca.
Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter


In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual.
1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats.
Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.

The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.

Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out.
I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.

Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again......
Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.




I really do not understand how you think mining asteroids is afk business for those who want a choice on hand of what crystals to use. I run 3 hulks with my rorq boosting and with a cycle time of 104 seconds you are constantly tabbing between the hulks to empty the ore, creating a new jet can every 2 minutes, watching local, killing rats is hardly afk business.


You have adjusted your play to the old afk model, instead of watching movies you now have additional account.
I you experience you would most likely switch to Macks set up for max mining. SInce the hold are now larger you will most likly try to run an additional 2 accounts with the saved time.
Mean while the person running 2 account may decide to work with 2 hulks because he can manage ships more effeciently.

With a hulk you have 14 cyrstals in the hold 3 pre loaded = how many Crystals do you need? Do not keep extras in you rorqual's corp hanger? Do you not plan the Roid types you plan to shoot? Do you ever take your miners off the belt because of Bio or a red comes in system. So you ever use your Drones to finish off asteriods or hit that one asteriod you don't have crystals for?

I am utterly surprised you did not mention or ***** about hauling. as that is the most time consuming task in Mining. and the Hauler is the one who can bring the replacement crystals to the miner... if they ever needed crystals.

Jake Rivers: You are a Multi Box AFK miner!

There was talk on the alliance panel from Senior Producer CCP Unifex of the idea of including mini activities between the mining cycle to gain possibly more yield or a bonus when the Roid pops (Officer ore? Old Drone Mineralsl maybe)


Nice troll, please move on.

Senex Legio
Dave stark
#422 - 2012-07-28 16:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
hauling isn't the most time consuming part of mining what so ever, it's like 60 seconds to warp in and out of a belt.... vs the 20 mins spent mining the ore.
Haffsol
#423 - 2012-07-28 16:08:24 UTC
Quote:
540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong.

FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too
Dave stark
#424 - 2012-07-28 16:10:33 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
Quote:
540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong.

FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too

yes, because surprise surprise they're t1 strips... they don't take crystals. if they did take crystals every one would have them on their ship because t1 yield strips with crystals would be insanely op.
Haffsol
#425 - 2012-07-28 16:14:56 UTC
and who talked about using crystals on them? I just wanted to give you some shiny to fit on your hulk and not worry about crystals anymore
Dave stark
#426 - 2012-07-28 16:16:04 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
and who talked about using crystals on them? I just wanted to give you some shiny to fit on your hulk and not worry about crystals anymore


except we'd already discussed the fact that a t1 strip hulk would be outmined by a t2 strip mackinaw and the obvious implications of that.
JamesCLK
#427 - 2012-07-28 16:17:36 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
Quote:
540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong.

FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too


That particular item is just a meta 6 faction strip miner; it has 2km more range and takes up 5 m3 instead of 100. Those are the only benefits. Straight

As for crystals: Has the possibility of breaking them down into a more conventional "one unit per cycle" ammo type been discussed?
Nothing changes in terms of use except you get to choose how many cycles of each crystal you want to bring instead of working in multiples of 200 (and getting fustrated when a crystal eventually breaks).

Just thought that might be a solution.

-- -.-- / -.-. .-.. --- -. . / .. ... / - --- --- / . -..- .--. . -. ... .. ...- . / - --- / ..- -. -.. --- -.-. -.- / ... - --- .--. / .--. .-.. . .- ... . / ... . -. -.. / .... . .-.. .--. / ... - --- .--.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#428 - 2012-07-28 16:32:18 UTC
JamesCLK wrote:
Haffsol wrote:
Quote:
540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong.

FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too


That particular item is just a meta 6 faction strip miner; it has 2km more range and takes up 5 m3 instead of 100. Those are the only benefits. Straight

As for crystals: Has the possibility of breaking them down into a more conventional "one unit per cycle" ammo type been discussed?
Nothing changes in terms of use except you get to choose how many cycles of each crystal you want to bring instead of working in multiples of 200 (and getting fustrated when a crystal eventually breaks).

Just thought that might be a solution.


Oh hell, that would drive you crazy trying to figure out how many stacks of each to bring out.

The system is fine as it is now, with the exception of the extremely large crystal size.

There is no reason why a mining crystal needs to be any larger than a frequency crystal.

Senex Legio
Dave stark
#429 - 2012-07-28 16:48:22 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
JamesCLK wrote:
Haffsol wrote:
Quote:
540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong.

FYI 540 m3 is the base yeld for the ORE strip miners too


That particular item is just a meta 6 faction strip miner; it has 2km more range and takes up 5 m3 instead of 100. Those are the only benefits. Straight

As for crystals: Has the possibility of breaking them down into a more conventional "one unit per cycle" ammo type been discussed?
Nothing changes in terms of use except you get to choose how many cycles of each crystal you want to bring instead of working in multiples of 200 (and getting fustrated when a crystal eventually breaks).

Just thought that might be a solution.


Oh hell, that would drive you crazy trying to figure out how many stacks of each to bring out.

The system is fine as it is now, with the exception of the extremely large crystal size.

There is no reason why a mining crystal needs to be any larger than a frequency crystal.


the crystal size isn't even the issue, it's the ******** allocation of ore bay vs cargo bay capacity when they separated them. 2250 cargo bay and 5750 ore bay would have solved the issue entirely but ccp decided that reducing the cargo bay to 350 from 500 was a better idea :herpderp:
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#430 - 2012-07-28 16:58:36 UTC
If they reduced the crystal size to 1m3, storage would be a non issue.

I think the 7500m3 ore bay is fine, sometimes you miss dumping the ore, so the extra capacity is just a bonus for those moments of forgetfulness.

Senex Legio
Dave stark
#431 - 2012-07-28 17:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Jake Rivers wrote:
If they reduced the crystal size to 1m3, storage would be a non issue.

I think the 7500m3 ore bay is fine, sometimes you miss dumping the ore, so the extra capacity is just a bonus for those moments of forgetfulness.


if you miss dumping the ore you don't have room for a full 2nd cycle whether it's 5750 or 7500. if they just changed the 2 numbers then the issue would be dealt with but they went and changed all 28 [or is it 30?] mining crystal's size, the ore bays on the ship, all the strip miner's capacities etc.

more number changing was done than needed to be done in order not to fix the issue. the levels of stupidity in that decision knew no bounds.
Aetatis
TriTech Technology
#432 - 2012-07-28 17:19:10 UTC
did someone notice that the exhumer did loose some of theri resistances yet?
i read about half the posts and couldnt find someone mentioning it.

the description still says "7,5% bonus to all shiled resistances" per mining barge lvl.
BUT jump in your hulk/mack/skiff and you will see only 25%.

first fo all i thought "well, exhumer lvl5 is missing" - due on maths this couldnt be the reason - i relogged with an alt and exhumer5 (just to be sure) and still 25% (look at the em-resistance - should be 37,5% on tranq).


is there any statement ?


a e
e


p.s. fix those crystalls pls :)
Dave stark
#433 - 2012-07-28 17:20:05 UTC
yes we noticed, no ccp haven't said anything.

also it's based on mining barge level, not exhumer level.
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#434 - 2012-07-28 17:22:00 UTC
[quote=Dave stark]hauling isn't the most time consuming part of mining what so ever, it's like 60 seconds to warp in and out of a belt.... vs the 20 mins spent mining the ore.[/quote

Consuming Task> Hulk point and shoot walk away for 1.5 mins if Super boosted and return. Hualer.. its go go go.. Gotta keep up, why can't There be fewer Miners, Why if I am a Max miner I am stuck hauling the Ore for the rest of the group in this Itty 5 Why is Bob mining at the opposite end of the belt. I wonder if anyone is going to ask for crystals today? Type of job.

The Hauler ends up being the 1 job that is tough to Multi Box in larger fleets.

When I did the 3 Hulks and 1 Rorqual Routine, After 1 hour 30 mins of mining I would drop the 3 miner climb into his hauler (a rorqual) and take 30 mins constantly hauling. leaving the Max hulk and tank hulk in the belt. Then the next 2 hour Session would begin.
This was only done when I have someone with an alt able to watch the entry systems.

in that situation I never carried spares on the Hulks, As I would start the op with fresh crystals each time, giving my used crystals to the newbies around me. I would fit 1 Ore type to each top and have at it. Using my super range to allow me to sit in one spot.
I never carried any because they would end up in the jet can if I had a spare.

For me 14 Crystals in a cargo area that I am not going to Jettison is paradise.

The hulk is the micro manage ship:
- The Strip miners are 3 so lost cyle time from partial cycles are minimal because of roids only taking a cycle.
- The yield per cycle is larger than any of the other boats
- On the other hand you will go though more crystals, and have to "PLAN" you mining op to get the biggest haul,
- You have the ability to target 6 roids vs the standard 4
-You have to rely on a hauler alt to do your hauling for you so you don't have to remove your self from the belt.
- You are more incline to use your drones to finish off roids since you are using a scanner to know what is in each roid.
- There is a lot of stuff a miner has to take into account if he want to get the biggest bang for buck

The Machinaw
- The strip miners are 2 but have a multplier bonus, to ore bought in per rock
- Less Crystals to go through, keeping down the cost. I don't have an unlimited supply by enough to allow me do my job if I do an ounce of pre-planning.
- this ship is in fleet so the guy watching local is able to warp the fleet off to the POS if there is trouble
_ Lock on to 2 different Asteroids and wait. Most likely the ABC in the Hidden I-Hub Belt as those roids are large fire and forget type of thing
- The Drones are mainly ECM drones or PVP drones that only are released if you are the keyboard an you are tackled.

Skiff
- The strip miner will have lost cycles on smaller roids but I can hit any asteroid, s I don't have to plan ahead on what I am mining.
-If attack I can tank a bit if it is a small gang till help arrives.
-My drones I used to finish off roids one at a time.
-I can tank any rat, I am Cheap compared to a hulk so If I am lost mining in hostile territory I am not too worried about making money back to replace this ship.
-I have a good sized of ore hold so I don't have to mirco manage it.
-I am the perfect Newb/Numb ship!
- I am also the poor guy who has to keep an eye on local. Hope those scouts don't fall asleep.


Procurer is going to be an awesome Low sec mining ship.... Sweet!

If the Hulk does not take the odd nerf we may experience a power creap and that would be bad. If you plan out your mining before hand you should not experience any loss in productivity in your Hulk if used in groups. Infact in Ice fields its strength increases taking over the role of the Machinaw. Meaning One less ship type to run, and an ability for that ship to have some form of tank.




Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Sigras
Conglomo
#435 - 2012-07-28 17:38:07 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Who are you to decide how many crystals a hulk should be able to carry.

The option should be open for a player to decide how many crystals he wants to carry, not limited to some number someone pulled out of there ass.

Ok, so if I want to carry 30,000 crystals I should be able to do that right? because it should be up to me to decide how many crystals I want to carry right?

Once again, the sandbox doesnt mean that you can do whatever you want, it just means that you are given tools and YOU choose how to use them.
CCP is giving you a tool and instead of figuring out how to use it, youre whining about it.

I was explaining this to people complaining about the tier/role changes, they said "CCP shouldnt determine what the ship should do, we should"

My rebuttal is that CCP decides what every ship in the game is good at, they design it for a reason but let you do other things with it.

What would a ship look like that didnt have any pre defined role at all?

It wouldnt have a cargo bay because that might "pre define" it as a hauler
It wouldnt have any slots because that might "pre define" how its supposed to tank
It wouldnt have any bonuses because that might "pre define" what its supposed to do.
It wouldnt have any weapon slots because that might "pre define" that its a combat ship.

See the problem?
Aetatis
TriTech Technology
#436 - 2012-07-28 17:41:59 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
yes we noticed, no ccp haven't said anything.

also it's based on mining barge level, not exhumer level.


well, thanks

i knew it is based on mining barge lvl :)
its just - for example the german client isnt updated yet, you still have the old descriptions and stuff, i wanted to be sure !
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#437 - 2012-07-28 17:44:57 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
Who are you to decide how many crystals a hulk should be able to carry.

The option should be open for a player to decide how many crystals he wants to carry, not limited to some number someone pulled out of there ass.

Ok, so if I want to carry 30,000 crystals I should be able to do that right? because it should be up to me to decide how many crystals I want to carry right?

Once again, the sandbox doesnt mean that you can do whatever you want, it just means that you are given tools and YOU choose how to use them.
CCP is giving you a tool and instead of figuring out how to use it, youre whining about it.

I was explaining this to people complaining about the tier/role changes, they said "CCP shouldnt determine what the ship should do, we should"

My rebuttal is that CCP decides what every ship in the game is good at, they design it for a reason but let you do other things with it.

What would a ship look like that didnt have any pre defined role at all?

It wouldnt have a cargo bay because that might "pre define" it as a hauler
It wouldnt have any slots because that might "pre define" how its supposed to tank
It wouldnt have any bonuses because that might "pre define" what its supposed to do.
It wouldnt have any weapon slots because that might "pre define" that its a combat ship.

See the problem?


Round and round we go!

We should only have 14 crystals, thats perfect for me, everyone else should be happy with that!

Thanks for the input!

Senex Legio
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#438 - 2012-07-28 17:45:11 UTC
oh did you see there are some new rigs coming out SISI

Medium Mercoxit Mining Crystal Optimizations - 250 Call, 16 % Mining amount
Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator 250 Call, -12% Cycle Time

This should allow hulks to either specialize in Merxite or Ice harvesting... with this new Rig installed. will that beat the No tank Max Miner Machinaw currently on Trangquility?

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Dave stark
#439 - 2012-07-28 17:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Gevlin wrote:
oh did you see there are some new rigs coming out SISI

Medium Mercoxit Mining Crystal Optimizations - 250 Call, 16 % Mining amount
Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator 250 Call, -12% Cycle Time

This should allow hulks to either specialize in Merxite or Ice harvesting... with this new Rig installed. will that beat the No tank Max Miner Machinaw currently on Trangquility?



yeah they were linked on like the first page of the thread, or the other thread... or both
no, you need the rigs to be equal to the current role bonused barges.
Sigras
Conglomo
#440 - 2012-07-28 17:54:21 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Round and round we go!

We should only have 14 crystals, thats perfect for me, everyone else should be happy with that!

Thanks for the input!

yet it is you who is touting a "we should be able to do whatever we want" policy.

Try suggesting that in a PvP forum some time and see how well that goes over Roll

Its called game balance, the hulk is now no longer the max yield miner AND the easy mode miner, you have to pick, so as i said before CCP added another interesting choice . . . choose