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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Haffsol
#401 - 2012-07-28 11:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Haffsol
So, at page 20 finally we've found an agreement to stop the dispute, something that already exists since (prolly) ever: ORE Strip Miner.

540 m3 yield, 17Km base range, no need for crystals. Correct me if I'm wrong but I never used them.

edit: page 21 actually :p
Daddy Whorebucks
Black Bag Operations
#402 - 2012-07-28 11:05:00 UTC
Here is the math for Ice.

Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.

Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle.
Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.

Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.

at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.

Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle
Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.

at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.


Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol
Dave Stark
#403 - 2012-07-28 11:05:30 UTC
Haffsol wrote:
So, at page 20 finally we've found an agreement to stop the dispute, something that already exists since (prolly) ever: ORE Strip Miner.

540 m3 yield, 17Km base range, no need for crystals. Correct me if I'm wrong but I never used them.

edit: page 21 actually :p


540 is the base yield for t1s, you are wrong.
Daddy Whorebucks
Black Bag Operations
#404 - 2012-07-28 11:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Daddy Whorebucks
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Here is the math for Ice.

Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.

Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle.
Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.

Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.

at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.

Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle
Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.

at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.


Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol



Here is some more numbers 4 mackinaw 1 orca max everything yadayada

5 hours of ice mining roughly equates to 500m worth of ice at about 100m per mack per hour. (if you make fuel blocks) with the new numbers it will be 420m for macks 470m for Hulks in the same time frame. Thats a 30-80 million isk difference. or 15m per hour less each mack pilot will earn. /end
Dave Stark
#405 - 2012-07-28 11:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Here is the math for Ice.

Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.

Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle.
Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.

Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.

at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.

Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle
Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.

at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.


Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol



Here is some more numbers 4 mackinaw 1 orca max everything yadayada

5 hours of ice mining roughly equates to 500m worth of ice at about 100m per mack per hour. (if you make fuel blocks) with the new numbers it will be 420m for macks 470m for Hulks in the same time frame. Thats a 30-80 million isk difference. or 15m per hour less each mack pilot will earn. /end


oh look another clueless person.

also check your maths agian, the new hulk mines less than 0.1 blocks of ice less than the current mackinaw per hour. there should be no appreciable difference in isk/hour between the two ships. also your cycle times are incorrect.

check your maths (even better just go and find the maths me and many others have done and all agree upon) then we can discuss it when you stop being so silly.

also
these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting.
varified here.
and here.
Daddy Whorebucks
Black Bag Operations
#406 - 2012-07-28 12:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Daddy Whorebucks
Dave stark wrote:
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Here is the math for Ice.

Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.

Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle.
Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.

Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.

at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.

Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle
Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.

at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.


Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol



Here is some more numbers 4 mackinaw 1 orca max everything yadayada

5 hours of ice mining roughly equates to 500m worth of ice at about 100m per mack per hour. (if you make fuel blocks) with the new numbers it will be 420m for macks 470m for Hulks in the same time frame. Thats a 30-80 million isk difference. or 15m per hour less each mack pilot will earn. /end


oh look another clueless person.

also check your maths agian, the new hulk mines less than 0.1 blocks of ice less than the current mackinaw per hour. there should be no appreciable difference in isk/hour between the two ships. also your cycle times are incorrect.

check your maths (even better just go and find the maths me and many others have done and all agree upon) then we can discuss it when you stop being so silly.

also
these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting.
varified here.
and here.


I just sat on SISI with the ACTUAL ships and did all the math.
3 times
its pretty damn simple when you break it down.

A current mackinaw with MAXIMUM SKILL draws 80 blocks per hour per ship. the new hulk doing 76 per hour is .1 mathmatically speaking. You need me to FRAP it for you dude? I'll sit there for a F'ing hour and mine ice on the test server to prove my damn point. IT GOT NERFED. oh and your not as good at math as you think. sucks for you.


Math is hard so lets break it down. Current mackinaw, orca mindlinked etc etc As good as CCP allows mackinaws to get right now.

60 seconds in 1 minute 60 minutes in 1 hour

60*60=3600 3 thousand six hundred seconds in 1 hour.

Maxium cycle time of current Mackinaw? 187.12 s

you still with me? ok here we go. 3600/187.12 = 19.2389 round that up to 19.24

19 and 1 quarter cycles per mackinaw per hour. how many blocks of ice per strip per cycle? 4

19.24* 4 76.96 4 mackinaws for 4 hours = 1 extra cycle per mack or 4x4

.25*4=1.00 or (4 quarters = 1 whole)

In total 4 old macks equates to
308 blocks of ice per hour. at 250k a block = 77m (real price is much higher)

the new Hulk is 307 blocks same exact fleet

the new Mack is 287 blocks same exact fleet.

Where is my math wrong.

Im not refuting hulks arent the new king. I said it. Mackinaws which were NOT broken are now broken in a sad attempt to try and get people to mine. even tho they only doubled in number of HP's which most destroyers have in spades.

why the hell am i gonna go spend 100 million MORE on a ship that is as EASILY ganked as a current mackinaw for the same profit.
Dave Stark
#407 - 2012-07-28 14:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Here is the math for Ice.

Max skills implants Orca Mind Link boosted with t2 Links.

Mackinaw has 2 strips, 3 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. it pulls in 2 blocks of ice per cycle.
Cycle time is 101. 22 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 35 cycles x 2 blocks = 71 blocks per hour.

Current Mackinaw pulls in 80 blocks per hour. thats a 9 block per hour loss.

at 250k a block (conservatively) that's a 2.25m per hour loss. the bright side is you have a 37k cargo hold so you only have to empty your mackinaw every 18 minutes.

Hulk has 3 strips, 2 IMU, one Ice Rig, +3 Yeti. It pulls in 3 blocks of ice per cycle
Cycle time is 140.51 out of 3600 seconds (60 minutes or 1 hour) You get 25.2 cycles x 3 blocks = 76.8 blocks per hour.

at 250k a block (conservatively) thats a 800k per hour loss. the down side is a 7k hold you have to empty your cargo every other cycle at 5 minutes.


Hulks are now God. Macks are now nerfed to pointlessness. because no one in their right mind will sit afk for 20 minutes in a ice belt, with a ship thats STILL stupid easy to gank, because you still cant put a freaking Tank on it. I don't mind the loss for ease of access but come on. quit breaking stuff for the sake of "equality" If the poor slob doesn't have exhumer 5 he prolly wont be mining Ice. Keep the Mackinaw Ice Cycle time the same. Its pointless to nerf it. And balance the damn hulk ore hol



Here is some more numbers 4 mackinaw 1 orca max everything yadayada

5 hours of ice mining roughly equates to 500m worth of ice at about 100m per mack per hour. (if you make fuel blocks) with the new numbers it will be 420m for macks 470m for Hulks in the same time frame. Thats a 30-80 million isk difference. or 15m per hour less each mack pilot will earn. /end


oh look another clueless person.

also check your maths agian, the new hulk mines less than 0.1 blocks of ice less than the current mackinaw per hour. there should be no appreciable difference in isk/hour between the two ships. also your cycle times are incorrect.

check your maths (even better just go and find the maths me and many others have done and all agree upon) then we can discuss it when you stop being so silly.

also
these are the cycle times i, and others, are getting.
varified here.
and here.


I just sat on SISI with the ACTUAL ships and did all the math.
3 times
its pretty damn simple when you break it down.

A current mackinaw with MAXIMUM SKILL draws 80 blocks per hour per ship. the new hulk doing 76 per hour is .1 mathmatically speaking. You need me to FRAP it for you dude? I'll sit there for a F'ing hour and mine ice on the test server to prove my damn point. IT GOT NERFED. oh and your not as good at math as you think. sucks for you.


Math is hard so lets break it down. Current mackinaw, orca mindlinked etc etc As good as CCP allows mackinaws to get right now.

60 seconds in 1 minute 60 minutes in 1 hour

60*60=3600 3 thousand six hundred seconds in 1 hour.

Maxium cycle time of current Mackinaw? 187.12 s

you still with me? ok here we go. 3600/187.12 = 19.2389 round that up to 19.24

19 and 1 quarter cycles per mackinaw per hour. how many blocks of ice per strip per cycle? 4

19.24* 4 76.96 4 mackinaws for 4 hours = 1 extra cycle per mack or 4x4

.25*4=1.00 or (4 quarters = 1 whole)

In total 4 old macks equates to
308 blocks of ice per hour. at 250k a block = 77m (real price is much higher)

the new Hulk is 307 blocks same exact fleet

the new Mack is 287 blocks same exact fleet.

Where is my math wrong.

Im not refuting hulks arent the new king. I said it. Mackinaws which were NOT broken are now broken in a sad attempt to try and get people to mine. even tho they only doubled in number of HP's which most destroyers have in spades.

why the hell am i gonna go spend 100 million MORE on a ship that is as EASILY ganked as a current mackinaw for the same profit.


you didn't provide any maths other than how to work out how many seconds in an hour. if ice mining was nerfed what stats have been changed because the maths i provided you with were correct and verified on sisi as the links show.
either provide the stat changes and how you're getting those cycle times or your caps **** tantrum is worthless.

also 80 blocks an hour is a buff, not a nerf. either way nothing you've said so far is in any way informative.

oh and the current hulk doesn't do 80/hour. it does *almost* 77 with a 5% yeti, 75 with a 3% yeti. i have no idea where you're getting your numbers from.
Daddy Whorebucks
Black Bag Operations
#408 - 2012-07-28 14:18:53 UTC
and you've done nothing to disprove my math other then linking some crap from eft threads.

I, physically got on Singularity, made the rigs, got in the ship, booted up the God Boost Orca and actually mined for a little bit to get a feel for the new exhumers. Both the mackinaw and hullks. I then took the Cycle times. and converting it into numbers of cycles per hour, added the ice harvested per cycle. and im ******* correct. so eat a jolly green giant ****.

caps on a forum are provided for annunciation. look it up ****-tard.
Dave Stark
#409 - 2012-07-28 14:20:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
and you've done nothing to disprove my math other then linking some crap from eft threads.

I, physically got on Singularity, made the rigs, got in the ship, booted up the God Boost Orca and actually mined for a little bit to get a feel for the new exhumers. Both the mackinaw and hullks. I then took the Cycle times. and converting it into numbers of cycles per hour, added the ice harvested per cycle. and im ******* correct. so eat a jolly green giant ****.

caps on a forum are provided for annunciation. look it up ****-tard.


incorrect i linked posts from this thread where 3 people agreed upon the maths and if you click back a page or two i provide my workings.

no it proves you're a small child who has to hit caps lock because they lack eloquence, again if some thing has changed on sisi just point it out so maths can be adjusted rather than throwing your rattle out of the pram.

infact, i'll do the maths for you again since you're incapable of finding it.

ice harvester II * ice harvesting skill * exhumer bonus * IHU II * rig * implant 3% * orca bonus = cycle time.

500*0.75*0.8*0.91^2*0.88*0.97*0.6765625=143.4717409.
that's 25.09 cycle per hour
that's 75.27 ice per hour.

using the same maths the new mack pulls in 69.65 ice an hour, and the old mack pulls in 75.36982
both the new hulk and the old mack do 75 an hour, there's no appreciable difference in ice mining.

i also just verified that those numbers are consistent with sisi numbers, which surprisingly they are.

i've found your problem. you're using a 5% yeti not a 3% one as you stated.
Daddy Whorebucks wrote:
Here is the math for Ice.
[snip] +3 Yeti.[snip]

even with a 5% yeti you're still not getting 80 ice an hour. you're getting 77 if you round up.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#410 - 2012-07-28 14:47:58 UTC
Janet Patton wrote:
Obviously if you want to mine everything in sight, you should be using tech I strip miners. You can also use tech 1 crystals in your tech II strip miners which take up less space then the tech II variant.

Specific ore and max yield or general all around rock cruncher. You have the pick. It really does seem like it's by design.

Maybe it's just my play style, but I never carry spare crystals on me. I can fill up several jet cans of the same ore before switching over to my hauler. If I need to change out crystals I do it at the station when I switch. This is part of the balance and sacrifice the most of the game follows when configuring your ship.



See that is your playstyle, and I have no problem with how you want to mine, but why should I have to follow your playstyle, I have my own, and I want to keep it.

Senex Legio
Arctos Canis
Ice Wolves
#411 - 2012-07-28 14:53:55 UTC
so many negative posts today :) must be Saturday kicking in :) just wanted to mention one positive thing. skiff drone bay has been increased to 50m3 :) so its a cool news
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#412 - 2012-07-28 14:54:12 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec

I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)

I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation.
I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)

Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca.
Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter


In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual.
1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats.
Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.

The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.

Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out.
I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.

Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again......
Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.




I really do not understand how you think mining asteroids is afk business for those who want a choice on hand of what crystals to use. I run 3 hulks with my rorq boosting and with a cycle time of 104 seconds you are constantly tabbing between the hulks to empty the ore, creating a new jet can every 2 minutes, watching local, killing rats is hardly afk business.

Senex Legio
Dave Stark
#413 - 2012-07-28 15:00:01 UTC
Arctos Canis wrote:
so many negative posts today :) must be Saturday kicking in :) just wanted to mention one positive thing. skiff drone bay has been increased to 50m3 :) so its a cool news

also old news. that happened yesterday.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#414 - 2012-07-28 15:06:10 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Droxlyn wrote:
Sigras wrote:

What is your definition of "works"


Not taking away something that we could do before.

You realize that by that definition there isnt a ship in the game that "works"

When this game launched in 2003 you could fit armor repairers in the mid slots, my CEO still has a merlin fit that way.

We cant do that any more, so none of the ships in game work . . . oh no, time to go back to WoW because they never nerf anything and just let power creep rule the day . . .


i can understand nerfing things when they're out of line; but is being able to carry a full compliment of crystals really that unbalanced?

well, I think of it more as a role change. The hulk is supposed to rely on other ships to haul its ore away and to bring it more crystals, the mack isnt, its supposed to be more self sufficient than the hulk or skiff.

To that end, I can see buffing the macks cargo bay to 750 m^3 so it can carry a full set of crystals, and fulfill its role as self sufficient

I would also like to see the cargo bay of the skiff nerfed to 250 m^3 so it can carry 10 different sets of crystals half way between the hulk's 5 and the mackinaw's 15.

just my thoughts, but the hulk will actually work great even solo, I imagine my strategy would be to warp to one spot and mine out all of the different types of ore that i have crystals for, then pick up my cans with my hauler (theyre probably almost running out by then anyway), then get different crystals and warp back to the same spot to gather the rocks i missed the first time. Lather rinse repeat!



Who are you to decide how many crystals a hulk should be able to carry.

The option should be open for a player to decide how many crystals he wants to carry, not limited to some number someone pulled out of there ass.

Senex Legio
Captain CarlCosmogasm
Cosmogasm
#415 - 2012-07-28 15:10:16 UTC
CCP nerfed the miningbarge melt down yields. What am I gonna do with all these retrievers?
Dave Stark
#416 - 2012-07-28 15:12:27 UTC
Captain CarlCosmogasm wrote:
CCP nerfed the miningbarge melt down yields. What am I gonna do with all these retrievers?


sell them, it has ~3k cargo difference with a mackinaw which is less than 1 cycle of ore. it tanks high sec rats just as well as a mackinaw so i foresee demand going up.
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#417 - 2012-07-28 15:14:45 UTC
I have been mining for a long time now, mainly HS, but on SISI have tested low, null and even wormholes to a small degree.

I was at first very much against this changed but they are growing on me now that I have had a bit of time with them. This thread is also interesting but getting out of hand... seems like Psychopathic Euclidean Discussion and Dissection Group here at some points.

Could we maybe start to post a few ship fits and see what is up with peoples minds... so far I have found my ship tests on SISI workable, though I think that the Procuror (might) and the skiff (prob) need a bigger drone bay to deal with big rats.

And all the ships should have a scaleable cargo bay - to the number of miners they have - basically factors of 1,2 3 x and then be able to place x cystals in the cargo for even replacements. for instance the hulk as 3x so I would like 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, etc as the ratio for cargo space, 2x for the mack hulls 2, 4, 6, 8, etc and finally just 1, 2, 3, 4, etc for the single mount skiff hulls.

The cargo holds are easy to deal with and can be worked out, the ore bays are an issue I think more than anything... I was posting before for a single size for all - 27,500 or larger. and then make it so that can would be pointless to jet.

Cargo rigs are worthless on these ships now, and the shield rigs are not going to be used much as to fit the tanks and walk the PG and CPU implants and rigs must be used. So the barges need a new source of resist buffs - something or they are going to be too expensive for the lack of any defense... my thought is they need either 2-3 mid slots or + to resists bonus... or no one will use them, if they had a decent tank people would likely use them more often and might not even go to a T2 ship depending on use.... atm people will simply run to the exhumers - tank, AFK, yield - but def running to T2.

I would have really liked a gas option (putting harvesters on exhumers at least if not barges also, and then an aux slot.... for trac, sal, prob or a cloak... but that is prob unlikely, making it very hard to see the skiff in null or wh space w/o a probe launcher as a solo ninja mining ship - that would have been very fun... but alas no.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#418 - 2012-07-28 15:14:48 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Sigras wrote:
well, I think of it more as a role change. The hulk is supposed to rely on other ships to haul its ore away and to bring it more crystals, the mack isnt, its supposed to be more self sufficient than the hulk or skiff.

To that end, I can see buffing the macks cargo bay to 750 m^3 so it can carry a full set of crystals, and fulfill its role as self sufficient

I would also like to see the cargo bay of the skiff nerfed to 250 m^3 so it can carry 10 different sets of crystals half way between the hulk's 5 and the mackinaw's 15.

just my thoughts, but the hulk will actually work great even solo, I imagine my strategy would be to warp to one spot and mine out all of the different types of ore that i have crystals for, then pick up my cans with my hauler (theyre probably almost running out by then anyway), then get different crystals and warp back to the same spot to gather the rocks i missed the first time. Lather rinse repeat!


oh i don't disagree that the mack should be more self sufficient. however i simply don't think crystals should come in to that; of course i don't want the hulk to be able to carry millions of crystals. as i've said enough space to pick between a single set of all the crystals, or being able to take a stack of a subset would be nice and gives more choices.


Thats where we differ, to me that isnt more choice. Who ever needs more than one set of a crystal. the freaking things last for 6 hours! Youre going to spend more than 6 hours mining the same rock type? not likely unless its king spod in the small belt.

Thats the problem I have with giving the hulk a set of the crystals, nobody in their right mind needs more than one group of each type so IMHO it removes choice from the equation.

Dave stark wrote:
it's a quality of life change rather than any kind of mining buff, to be honest. it'll also stop people feel like they're being stonewalled in to flying a mack since it's slowly creeping in as the new hulk, then again with how poor the mack is vs it's t1 counterpart if it wasn't almost being given such godhood would any one buy it to begin with?

really? you dont think the 10% mining bonus the hulk gets over the mack will make it the ship of choice? IMHO even with the lack of being able to fit full set of crystals, people are still going to be going for the hulk. 10% more of everything is a really big deal.


Right here I know you don't mine in null sec. With my 3 hulks, I picked 5-6 rocks in a large grav site last night. The bistot was at around 47,000m3, I put one set of lasers on that rock, and picked away at the other rocks in range with the other 2 hulks. Running with max rorq booster for about 5-6 hours, the other two hulks ran through 2 omber, 1 gniess, 2 kernite, 1 dark omber, 1 jaspet in the same time it took the hulk on the bistot rock to take it out.

I played the crystal limitation game and ended up scavenging bistot crystals from the other 2 hulks as my used crystals I took out blew out about 5x. Between the 2 hulks mining, it was a serious pain in the ass picking a rock with the crystals on hand each time I had to start on a fresh rock because I limited myself to crystal choices. Yes you can check damage on used crystals, but only if they are loaded in the strip miner. Who in there right mind are going to sit outside the station loading and unloading crystals to check for damage?

In the moderate grav belt there is a bistot rock that sits at 100k, you will not mine that with a single hulk in a 6 hour span. And I will not even mention the spud rock in the small grav.

Senex Legio
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#419 - 2012-07-28 15:21:45 UTC
Arctos Canis wrote:
so many negative posts today :) must be Saturday kicking in :) just wanted to mention one positive thing. skiff drone bay has been increased to 50m3 :) so its a cool news


That is indeed good news.

Senex Legio
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#420 - 2012-07-28 16:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Gevlin
Jake Rivers wrote:
Gevlin wrote:
I have multi Boxed up to 4 accounts, 1 Orca and 3 Hulks in both High sec and null sec

I have also run ops up to 20 in Nulls sec and 25 in high sec(nothing like clearing all belts out of a system)

I would assign or 2 types of ore to each hulk limiting the number of crystals required to be put in stock for the operation.
I would assign a couple Hulks with miner I's to clean up the odd ore that didn't have much. (this would often be the empire based ore in the upgraded I-Hub Induced belts in null sec.)

Orcas would be used for hauling Boosting in,High sec, with some secondary help from a hauler(iity 5) that would focus on smaller groups or bins out of tractor range of the Orca.
Moving everything to a POS to later be moved to a station via Freighter


In null sec I would haul with Rorqual or Orca with an Itty 5 support, while Boosting with a Rorqual.
1 Tanked Hulk would sit in the belt first to tank the Belt rats.
Scouts (alts) in neighbouring systems. Lots and Lots of Bubbles.

The need for tonne of Crystals in a hulk is for the Solo or afk Miner... which is not longer the choice of ship for these people. They now have to make a choice, Convienience (Reteiver) or Or Max Yield The hulk.

Its a new age, And age of Choice, not longer is it simple get to the best ship and max it out.
I really like CCP's approach of Balancing for Roles vs Tiers. It is reverse Power creep, it is awesome and really separates eve from other MMOs out there.

Before in my selection of ships it was retriever, or hulk. now I have to rethink my group make up completely. Rekindling my desire to mine again......
Procure is becoming my new favorite ship.




I really do not understand how you think mining asteroids is afk business for those who want a choice on hand of what crystals to use. I run 3 hulks with my rorq boosting and with a cycle time of 104 seconds you are constantly tabbing between the hulks to empty the ore, creating a new jet can every 2 minutes, watching local, killing rats is hardly afk business.


You have adjusted your play to the old afk model, instead of watching movies you now have additional account.
I you experience you would most likely switch to Macks set up for max mining. SInce the hold are now larger you will most likly try to run an additional 2 accounts with the saved time.
Mean while the person running 2 account may decide to work with 2 hulks because he can manage ships more effeciently.

With a hulk you have 14 cyrstals in the hold 3 pre loaded = how many Crystals do you need? Do not keep extras in you rorqual's corp hanger? Do you not plan the Roid types you plan to shoot? Do you ever take your miners off the belt because of Bio or a red comes in system. So you ever use your Drones to finish off asteriods or hit that one asteriod you don't have crystals for?

I am utterly surprised you did not mention or complain about hauling. as that is the most time consuming task in Mining. and the Hauler is the one who can bring the replacement crystals to the miner... if they ever needed crystals.

Jake Rivers: You are a Multi Box AFK miner!

There was talk on the alliance panel from Senior Producer CCP Unifex of the idea of including mini activities between the mining cycle to gain possibly more yield or a bonus when the Roid pops (Officer ore? Old Drone Mineralsl maybe)

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships