Player Features and Ideas Discussion

1. This idea is still dumb. In fact, all of your ideas are pretty dumb. This makes sense though, as you know nothing about practical use of capitals. See below for some details.

2. Carriers in triage can't use drones (oh look, you don't know this? how strange)

3. Triage carriers aren't meant to be killing anything. They are giant logis.

4. Base sensor strength of my nid, is 68. The other carriers are all greater than this (68 in itself is pretty good). In any case, smart carrier pilots carry ECCM with them to refit to in the case of too much ECM on the field, attempting to jam them.

5. You still don't know anything about capitals.

hth

Aren't logistics intended to rep other ships? I'm pretty sure about that. The triage carrier reps like 10-15 regular logistics and locks targets faster. And they aren't logistics then. Okay. Because they 'die too fast to do reasonable rep' in your imaginary world. Applying that logic to other ships... it's like 'tier-3 BC aren't dps-boats, because they die too easy, 35k EHP max — lol'.

Yes, BRAINS. Not simply 'MOAR DEE-PEE-ES' as you trying to make by allowing them to receive reps in triage. It is a viable tactic now, because it works on anything, but do you really want it to become the only possible one? Is that what you mean by 'plenty of ways'?

Uh, great. Then please, give me your killmails in a carrier, or killmails of your carriers, or somebody who can confirm that you were in the battlefield in a carrier. Just to be sure that you are knowledgable of a combat side of the carriers that you're trying to change.

This post (and most of your posts) is so full of dumb that I legit don't know how to address it anymore.

I am beyond confused at how you can be so dumb.

Any Guardian or Basi pilot will tell you that logistics are supposed to first rep each other and then rep the fleet. The first priority is keeping the logistics pilots repped. If a logi does anything to make it difficult for the others to rep him, then he is considered a bad logi pilot. Triage currently makes it difficult for others to rep him, so the use of triage makes the pilot a bad logi pilot in the most commonly accepted use of the term "fleet RR logistics". In the logi world, if the logistics go down, the fleet goes down.

A triage carrier's reps, quantified: A single cap RR of a carrier is about as strong as a single sub-cap logi with five (5) Lg RR. With 6 slots, a carrier can rep as up to 6 sub-cap logi. With Triage, the carrier needs enough cap to sustain up to 10 cap RR (cycle time halved by triage), while putting out up to about 20 sub-cap logi reps. The typical carrier is not fit to power that much RR for long so it is more typical to see only 1-2 cap RR which is the equivalent of 1-2 sub-cap RR, or with triage 4-8 sub-cap RR.

Applying that logic to T3 BC only works if they were the ONLY dps of the fleet just as logi are the only RR of the fleet. Only then, it would be like saying that T3 BC aren't dps boats because ships killed by their dps are only killed for other ships but can continue to fire at T3 BCs.



A pilot without brains can only think to answer a difficult problem with more dps. And it tends to eventually win out when the dps becomes sufficiently large. Those with brains know that SD works wonders, but triage must be changed to allow it. Neuts are amazing as always. There is always pyschological warfare as well, but that takes extra brains and begins to reveal too many of my cards. Those who have the brains are quite capable of seeing the winning moves. The rest simply need to follow those individuals.



The best logistics pilots focus more on keeping the fleet alive than on getting on a km. If there were remote repair mails without fittings for all ships which did not die in each fleet battle, I would be on quite a few of those. The separation between logistics pilots and dps pilots is that effective dps pilots obsess about the kms while the effective logistics pilots could care less about them. I am an effective logistics pilot.

You're missing the point why they rep themselves first. To survive, soak up DPS, and rep others when the threat is over. The whole point of triage is 'I can rep myself alone'. The logi cruisers have RR to sustain extended DPS applied to them, the carriers have much stronger self-tank and bigger EHP buffer. Just different ways to achieve the same goal: survive, at least for some time.

Yeah, my bad. I've meant RR modules [facepalm]
Nevertheless, everything is fine with the cap. Two RR modules — no problems (if you're not neuted, ofc). Even three is okay if you're pulsing one.
And with the 2.5 s cycle you don't really need to continuosly run reps, if you're not repping the sovstructures.

Sorry, I could not parse this (seriously). You mean, if the fleet consists purely of T3 BC, they don't DPS? o_o

No ewar-immunity? Ah, yeah. We don't have to pay the price for superpowers, so then we're not legible for Noble Inviolability.

> or somebody who can confirm that you were in the battlefield in a carrier

It would be so nice if he could prove he was on the battlefield with a carrier at some point. Because thus far hes claimed to not use his carrier for things, doubled back and says he does use it for those, and continued to offer changes to something he seems to not have experience with.

Look, I agree that triage can rep itself "for some time" WHEN facing non-neuting sub-caps. Dreads quickly change the story. Neuts quickly change the story.

Siege Dreads'/Supers' dps laughs at triage. With dps around 15k per dread/super, the triage carrier loses ground against a single siege dread/super with its 11k dps local tank. With 5 minutes on the triage clock, the opposition only needs to exceed the local tank by 10,000 dps in order to overwhelm an EHP tank of 3 mil. The triage carrier soaks up less dps as the dps increases. An additional 10,000 dps reduces the time that the local tank soaks up damage by half. 5 Heavy Energy neuts will kill the cap of a well fit triage carrier running its local tank in 5 minutes. 10 neuts kills the tank in 3 minutes and gimps the tank down to < 1/3 strength. It is well said that triage means suicide "hero" .. not logistics.



Only for the analogy, and I should have revised my analogy to more accurately say (as an analogy): Just as if a fleet consists purely of triage carriers, they don't spider tank (logistics). Logistics is fleet tank just as much as dps is fleet tank. DPS is fleet tank because it lowers the dps against all ships in the fleet as it kills each ship in the opposing fleet. Logistics lowers the dps against every fleet ship as well. Since triage denies the ship access to the fleet logistics tank, the analogy with T3 BC is that they would be denied access to the fleets dps tank so that the dps against them did not decrease as a result of any fleet dps besides their own ("local dps tank"). As an analogy, it is not real, but I should probably make it clear that in Eve reality T3 have always retained access to the fleet dps tank and dead ships do not continue to shoot T3 BC. Even sieged dreads benefit from each other's dps as part of the fleet's dps tank. Triage does NOT benefit from the fleet's logistics tank, so siege is entered far more often than triage.

Yo Zim, what's your favorite breakfast meal?

So... uh? Logistics can rep themselves or the fleet for some time when facing specifically fit subcaps. Alphastriking quickly changes the story. A sensor disruptor on every ship in the enemy's fleet quickly changes the story. They work in different ways to achieve the same goal, and they have different counters.

And you want to live ****ing forever then, lol? Triage's bonuses are meant to be used to heal subcaps (scanres, more targets, faster cycle). When you heal capitals, you don't really need them; they do help, but are not needed as they are for subcaps (because with lol-scanres they simply die before you can lock them). Subcap logistics have spidertank to survive subcap pressure. Carriers have spidertank to survive capital pressure (survivability scales with number of your friends); carriers have triage to survive subcapital pressure (survivability does not scale, because it is you in a carrier who are ruining subcapital world with your omg-supereffective reps).

So you want the triage to become an option in a capital fight. But why? To make carrier more relevant there? People whine here and there that supercapitals are tough to kill. With such spider-triage they will become more tougher to kill, and carriers will become more tougher to kill. Who the hell needs more tank for supercapitals?
So I presume it is to make yourself relevant in a capital fight. You don't have money for a supercapital, and 1-2 cap reps and 10k DPS of a super + its EHP is much better than... uh, 2-3 cap reps of a carrier and 700 DPS. And you're afraid of losing your ship every time you want to show that supercaps who's the kewlest repper here by activating a triage; because without that you're less useful than any other ship in a fleet, even a dreadnought, and when you use it — your wreck is totally useless; and it all kinda frustrates you. So I propose a solution: carebear more until you can afford to lose a carrier every week or so, it should drive your fear out. Ships are meant to fight and become wrecks, accept that.
inb4 trolling and couch psychoanalysis

Okay, now I understand. And repeat: the whole – point – of – triage – is – that – your – isolated – repping – power – should – be – enough – for – fleet's – needs. If it is not enough, it is called 'tactical military blunder' and quickly results in the carrier's death. As I've said already, triage is not meant to scale with the count of your carrier buddies, because it is meant to be used 1) in subcap fleets when you yourself individually are already awesome; 2) in capital fights when you really need 4x repping power at all costs (treat it as an overheating).

In subcap fleets it is okay. You gain awesome power by using an oversized ship. Of course you die in seconds if your enemy has an ace in a sleeve like capfleet on standby or tons of neuts. It is your blunder, if you didn't know it. It is your blunder, if you knew that your enemy had a hard counter on standby, and still cynoed in a carrier.

In cap fleets it is okay. If you so hardly want to save that fatty supercap, pay the price for its life. There is enough tank there already. 4-5 untriaged cap reps = 1 supercap DPS. Want to win with lesser people count — risk more.

And I repeat then questions to not forget it.

Why do you want the supercapitals' tank to be more strong?
Why do you want to boost stationary defence fleets?

It is really related to your changes to triage; when you propose a balance change, you should look farther that you own nose and your own itch.

'I don't care about balance, I propose changes' is not an answer, it would be an acknowledgement that you're just a generator of gibberish, which even you don't care about.

Supercapital tanks are already way too strong, and I do want them weaker. In the meantime, the triage changes attempt to benefit the carrier more than the super with flat hp bonuses instead of percentage hp bonuses. No other T2 ship EHP exceeds the T1 as much as a supercap exceeds its T1. That is another major issue with Supercaps Online. Yes, I know the cost is so much more, but so is the cost of most other T2s compared to their T1 counterparts. Cost doesn't justify making the T2 OP because that creates P2W and unbalances the game.

I want to boost the logi of all fleets because the existence of a logi module like triage requires that it promote normal logi mechanics.


Missed that part of the in-game description of each carrier, lol.



Missed that part of the in-game description of triage, lol, but I see how those bonuses help. I personally don't think that CCP designed Triage for subcap battles specifically, and they certainly didn't say that explicitly. I don't think carriers ruin the sub-cap world anymore than BS's ruin the sub-BS world. Yes, BS have omg-super effective dps compared to cruisers, but they aren't ruining or unbalancing anything in the sub-BS world.

Frankly, I see the Siege and Triage modules as two sides of the same battle. The major difference being that Siege is used in most situations, while Triage is used in a few very specialized situations. I think that to balance these two modules, let's call them Yin and Yang, changes must either make Triage used in most situations or make Siege used in a few very specialized situations. And let's just make supers completely immune to RR 100% of the time. Let's lower the EHP and the price tag a lot, also.

Best wishes in your 1.8 bil ISK per week ratting to pay for a new carrier plus fit every week.