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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Dave Stark
#321 - 2012-07-27 19:52:34 UTC
Sigras wrote:
so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.

The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.

IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one.


once again, there's a difference between "works best in a fleet" and "only works in a fleet".

you'd have a point if i wanted to fit 30 sets of every mining crystal; but i don't. i just want to be able to mine any ore in the belt by simply switching crystals instead of being able to go "woop, can't mine that, couldn't bring the crystal with me".

sure, having a hauler bring me crystals to let me CONTINUE mining is fine. i shouldn't have to wait for a hauler so i can START mining.
Dave Stark
#322 - 2012-07-27 19:54:44 UTC
Commander A9 wrote:
And am I reading this right for the Mackinaw? It's no longer a dedicated ice miner? ...Why not? What benefit does that bring anyone? Why only a 1% boost to its attributes per skill level?

I know some defense and powergrid/CPU changes were needed for mining ships (especially the Mackinaw), but why leave out the Hulk? Why give it no love?


because ice bonuses on macks would mean no ship other than the mackinaw would ever mine ice. it'd have the best yield, best cargo, and almost the best tank. why would you ever use anything else?
the entire point of the rebalance is to stop one ship being the "king of mining" because it does everything better than every other ship.
Commander A9
This Was The Way
Homicidal Tendencies.
#323 - 2012-07-27 19:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander A9
But wasn't that the point of T2 barges in the first place? To have each specialize in mining some form of resource gathering? The Skiff was gas, the Mackinaw was ice, the Hulk was ore.

I'm still not seeing why these changes are totally necessary. Defensive improvements, yes, everything else...not so much...

I'm not asking to devour belts with 1 barge...I'm asking for changes that people actually want, and changes that make sense.

I didn't vote for my CSM candidate anticipating this...

Recommendations:

-enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters)

-add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot)

-STOP NERFING EVERYTHING!

Join Live Events!
Dave Stark
#324 - 2012-07-27 20:07:26 UTC
Commander A9 wrote:
But wasn't that the point of T2 barges in the first place? To have each specialize in mining some form of resource gathering? The Skiff was gas, the Mackinaw was ice, the Hulk was ore.

I'm still not seeing why these changes are totally necessary. Defensive improvements, yes, everything else...not so much...

I'm not asking to devour belts with 1 barge...I'm asking for changes that people actually want, and changes that make sense.

I didn't vote for my CSM candidate anticipating this...


i do want these changes, and they do make sense.
no longer can some little cuntbubble in a 3m dessy **** up my 300m ship. now i don't have to "throw away" my ore or spend most of my time in warp.

also, now i don't have 2 ships sitting in my hangar that will rarely see the light of day.
Commander A9
This Was The Way
Homicidal Tendencies.
#325 - 2012-07-27 20:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander A9
Perhaps. I can see the Mackinaw being used more often now, which I suppose is okay...

I'm not happy about the Hulk losing its ore capacity, but...adapt and overcome...

But, in the end, we'll see...

Recommendations:

-enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters)

-add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot)

-STOP NERFING EVERYTHING!

Join Live Events!
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#326 - 2012-07-27 20:10:51 UTC
Commander A9 wrote:
Perhaps I'm naive or just stubborn, but...being the hardcore miner that I am, a Hulk miner by the way, I'm not terribly enthused about the reduction in my ore bay, and the fact that cargo expander rigs are now useless...and that my capacitor takes longer to fully charge...and that my shield resistances are lower (but my total shields are higher)...

I mean, why would ORE, realistically, not only refuse to improve the defenses of their Hulk, while improving everything else, but also make a ship smaller than the Hulk (i.e., the Mackinaw) hold more than the Hulk?

Let's think about that for a second...

And am I reading this right for the Mackinaw? It's no longer a dedicated ice miner? ...Why not? What benefit does that bring anyone? Why only a 1% boost to its attributes per skill level?

I know some defense and powergrid/CPU changes were needed for mining ships (especially the Mackinaw), but why leave out the Hulk? Why give it no love?


sod off.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Dave Stark
#327 - 2012-07-27 20:12:39 UTC
Denidil wrote:

sod off.


genuine lol.
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#328 - 2012-07-27 20:16:30 UTC
Sigras wrote:
so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.

The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.

IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one.


It is not your place, nor mine to dictate how one wants to mine. This is a sandbox after all, and you are not welcome in my half.

CCP just needs to reduce the crystal to a point where if one wanted to, they should be able to lug out 2 full sets if they so wish.

We should have the option to decide how many types we want to take out when we go to mine, and not be restricted by some abstract number someone came up, based on there own preference.

If you are happy with 10 crystals, well I am not going to tell you how you have to mine, that is your prerogative, just don't go around telling everyone else how you think they should be mining too.

Besides, just imagine the kill mail for a hulk where someone was foolish enough to load in a few hundred T2 crystals.


Senex Legio
Infinite Force
#329 - 2012-07-27 20:20:58 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Sigras wrote:
so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.

The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.

IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one.


It is not your place, nor mine to dictate how one wants to mine. This is a sandbox after all, and you are not welcome in my half.

CCP just needs to reduce the crystal to a point where if one wanted to, they should be able to lug out 2 full sets if they so wish.

We should have the option to decide how many types we want to take out when we go to mine, and not be restricted by some abstract number someone came up, based on there own preference.

If you are happy with 10 crystals, well I am not going to tell you how you have to mine, that is your prerogative, just don't go around telling everyone else how you think they should be mining too.

Besides, just imagine the kill mail for a hulk where someone was foolish enough to load in a few hundred T2 crystals.

Since you cross posted in the Initial Mining Changes thread (<--- that away), I'll repeat what I said:

It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.

Due to that, it's necessary to think what is necessary and what isn't. It is necessary to carry "X" amount of crystals & spares for "Y" types of Ore. It is not necessary to carry crystals for all 15 (Mercoxit excluded) ores plus spares - even if we'd like to.

Yes, the killmails would be interesting, but unless you create a crystal hold (similiar to the fuel bays on caps), you won't get it. What I'm shooting for is something reasonable that can be done without being overly harsh or overly generous - trying to run it down the middle / upper middle road.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Dave Stark
#330 - 2012-07-27 20:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
every ship should be able to carry exactly 1 full set of crystals. [eg 3 crystals of every ore type in the hulk, 2 in the mack, 1 in the skiff]

this means that you must pick between being able to mine anything you come across until your logistics brings you a "reload", or you can mine a subset of ores without the need for logistics.

this means that in a fleet you will still have to rely on logistics so you don't run out of crystals, and it also means that when solo mining you aren't crippled by not having logistics.

i think this is the optimal solution.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#331 - 2012-07-27 20:22:26 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Denidil wrote:

sod off.


genuine lol.


we actually get the devs to look at the issue, then some whiny **** comes in and bitches because one ship isn't the end all be all and he *gasp* has to change rigs? ugh.. i want should suicide gank him on an alt.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Infinite Force
#332 - 2012-07-27 20:24:47 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Denidil wrote:

sod off.


genuine lol.


we actually get the devs to look at the issue, then some whiny **** comes in and bitches because one ship isn't the end all be all and he *gasp* has to change rigs? ugh.. i want should suicide gank him on an alt.

I'll LOL that :)

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Sigras
Conglomo
#333 - 2012-07-27 20:45:24 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Sigras wrote:
so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.

The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.

IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one.


once again, there's a difference between "works best in a fleet" and "only works in a fleet".

you'd have a point if i wanted to fit 30 sets of every mining crystal; but i don't. i just want to be able to mine any ore in the belt by simply switching crystals instead of being able to go "woop, can't mine that, couldn't bring the crystal with me".

sure, having a hauler bring me crystals to let me CONTINUE mining is fine. i shouldn't have to wait for a hauler so i can START mining.

#1 you realize that you can do exactly what youre asking for, using T1 strip miners right? but im going to assume thats not good enough for you. Youre not willing to sacrifice anything, you want all of the yield with all of the ores all of the time with no preperation or logistics, and I understand that, I do too but i cant have it for game balance reasons and neither can you.

#2 you dont need the hauler to start mining, you can load 12 crystals into your cargohold, and 3 in your lasers, thats enough to mine 5 different types of ore, or 1/3 of the ore in the game. So you pick a spot and mine out all of those types of ore in that spot and by that time you'll be ready for a hauler or two anyway.
Sigras
Conglomo
#334 - 2012-07-27 20:52:28 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
It is not your place, nor mine to dictate how one wants to mine. This is a sandbox after all, and you are not welcome in my half.

CCP just needs to reduce the crystal to a point where if one wanted to, they should be able to lug out 2 full sets if they so wish.

We should have the option to decide how many types we want to take out when we go to mine, and not be restricted by some abstract number someone came up, based on there own preference.

If you are happy with 10 crystals, well I am not going to tell you how you have to mine, that is your prerogative, just don't go around telling everyone else how you think they should be mining too.

Besides, just imagine the kill mail for a hulk where someone was foolish enough to load in a few hundred T2 crystals.


I think you may be misunderstanding the sandbox concept.

A sandbox doesnt mean that you get to do whatever you want, it simply means that the game provides you with tools and you use those tools to make your castle.

CCP is providing you a tool (2 in fact) to do exactly what you ask which is mine every type of ore without distinction.
#1 use a skiff - with its current cargohold, it can hold 14 crystals + 1 in the laser, thats every ore in the game.
#2 use T1 Strip Miners - This will allow you to disregard the crystals entirely.

Yes, both of these require sacrifice of yield, but thats called balance, you cant have it all, all of the time that is the point, and if you could, that ship would be overpowered.
Dave Stark
#335 - 2012-07-27 20:53:50 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Sigras wrote:
so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.

The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.

IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one.


once again, there's a difference between "works best in a fleet" and "only works in a fleet".

you'd have a point if i wanted to fit 30 sets of every mining crystal; but i don't. i just want to be able to mine any ore in the belt by simply switching crystals instead of being able to go "woop, can't mine that, couldn't bring the crystal with me".

sure, having a hauler bring me crystals to let me CONTINUE mining is fine. i shouldn't have to wait for a hauler so i can START mining.

#1 you realize that you can do exactly what youre asking for, using T1 strip miners right? but im going to assume thats not good enough for you. Youre not willing to sacrifice anything, you want all of the yield with all of the ores all of the time with no preperation or logistics, and I understand that, I do too but i cant have it for game balance reasons and neither can you.

#2 you dont need the hauler to start mining, you can load 12 crystals into your cargohold, and 3 in your lasers, thats enough to mine 5 different types of ore, or 1/3 of the ore in the game. So you pick a spot and mine out all of those types of ore in that spot and by that time you'll be ready for a hauler or two anyway.


no, i'm not asking for t1 strips, i'm asking to be able to use t2 strips properly. it's not about sacrifice, you sacrifice cargo space for crystals to begin with. by using t2 strips you've already made a sacrifice. now we can't even use the things we've made sacrfices for. having crystals is preparation, but when you can't fit the crystals you can't prepare. I WANT TO PREPARE.
the choice should be this "you can mine every ore until your crystals break, then tough **** for not bringing spares to replace it" or "you can mine crystal x for a long time because you brought reloads for this specific ore instead of being able to mine all the ores." i don't want everything; i want to be able to make choices. i can't make that choice with the current cargo hold space in the hulk.
Sigras
Conglomo
#336 - 2012-07-27 20:58:15 UTC
no but you're CHOOSING to fly the hulk with T2 strip miners in the first place. that is your choice and you suffer the consequences.

If you made a different choice IE fly a skiff or a hulk with T1 strip miners, this would be a non issue. If you truely want to prepare to mine every ore in the game without having to get more crystals from somewhere then fly a skiff
Dave Stark
#337 - 2012-07-27 20:58:35 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
It is not your place, nor mine to dictate how one wants to mine. This is a sandbox after all, and you are not welcome in my half.

CCP just needs to reduce the crystal to a point where if one wanted to, they should be able to lug out 2 full sets if they so wish.

We should have the option to decide how many types we want to take out when we go to mine, and not be restricted by some abstract number someone came up, based on there own preference.

If you are happy with 10 crystals, well I am not going to tell you how you have to mine, that is your prerogative, just don't go around telling everyone else how you think they should be mining too.

Besides, just imagine the kill mail for a hulk where someone was foolish enough to load in a few hundred T2 crystals.


I think you may be misunderstanding the sandbox concept.

A sandbox doesnt mean that you get to do whatever you want, it simply means that the game provides you with tools and you use those tools to make your castle.

CCP is providing you a tool (2 in fact) to do exactly what you ask which is mine every type of ore without distinction.
#1 use a skiff - with its current cargohold, it can hold 14 crystals + 1 in the laser, thats every ore in the game.
#2 use T1 Strip Miners - This will allow you to disregard the crystals entirely.

Yes, both of these require sacrifice of yield, but thats called balance, you cant have it all, all of the time that is the point, and if you could, that ship would be overpowered.


ccp never had an issue with us carrying a full set of crystals for each ore, nobody complained about it. why should it now be "balanced" for us not to do so?

in fact, it used to be perfectly acceptable to do that and carry reloads. in fact, you could do that and still have enough cargo for 1 cycle of ore without using any cargo mods.
Dave Stark
#338 - 2012-07-27 21:02:13 UTC
Sigras wrote:
no but you're CHOOSING to fly the hulk with T2 strip miners in the first place. that is your choice and you suffer the consequences.

If you made a different choice IE fly a skiff or a hulk with T1 strip miners, this would be a non issue. If you truely want to prepare to mine every ore in the game without having to get more crystals from somewhere then fly a skiff


and why are there now consequences for something that has, until now, been perfectly acceptable?
we're talking about a hulk, the highest yield ship in the game, and you suggest not maxing out the yield? that's like telling a race driver he can only do the national speed limit around silverstone in a race. he'd think you're having a giraffe.

you seem to have missed the point; i don't want to mine them without having to get more crystals from somewhere. i have no issue with being unable to carry reloads if i can mine anything i come across. like i said; give me the choice to be able to mine anything i find OR mine one thing for a length of time, as it stands we really can't do either. belts do not contain enough ore to just much through one type for an extended period, and contain too many to carry a sufficient array of crystals.
Sigras
Conglomo
#339 - 2012-07-27 21:05:37 UTC
CCP never had a problem with the speeds of ships until 2007, CCP never had a problem with blasters until 2011 CCP never had a problem with Tech until 2012, CCP never had a problem with a lot of things that were totally unbalanced until they got around to fixing them.

This is just another fix to the sandbox, and though I think either the mackinaws and the skiffs roles should be reversed, or the mack's cargo should be buffed and the skiffs nerfed, I think this is a great and welcome change.

Now there's a reason to fly a skiff, and the Mack does more than ice mine in 0.0
Dave Stark
#340 - 2012-07-27 21:07:34 UTC
"totally unbalanced" mining crystals.

'aight son, now i know you're smoking some thing funky. care to share?

agree with you on the mack's cargo though, after it's nerf and the ret's buff the mack is woefully lacking in it's role bonus.