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Barge Fairy Tale

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Suqq Madiq
#1401 - 2012-07-27 19:21:58 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Gankers will gank for a profit, and they'll gank for a laugh if they can inflict disproportionate damage on the target.
But requiring a group of 3 Tornados to grind up 300M ISK to simply attempt to kill a 180M ISK Mackinaw with a midslot tank?


You're exaggerating wildly. If 3 T1 Catalysts can gank a tanked Hulk now (which they easily can) it won't take 3 T3 Battlecruisers to do the same thing after this rebalance. Remove the ability to make profit from your ganking calculations. It doesn't belong.


Only if you don't bother to tank the Hulk.


Nope. Wrong again. A Hulk with tank modules in every slot but 1 is still easily ganked by 3 T1 Catalysts. Expecting a Hulk to sacrifice every bit of yield and every mid, low and rig slot to maximize it's tank is stupid. No other ship needs to go to such lengths just to exist.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1402 - 2012-07-27 19:22:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Do you gank and empty freighter?
Do you gank a transport with 2M worth of contents?
Do you gank an empty indy because it fits an experimental cloak?
Do you gank the T1 fitted Drake or the meta 4 fitted CNR?

If the reply is: "yes I do it for a profit" then you are hopeless.


Now, why should you gank an empty or T1 fit exhumer and feel entitled you must "do it for a profit" again?


Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank.


You also make a profit if they fit a tank that still lets them have a semblance of efficiency.
IE even if you fit a DC but still want to use 1 MLU (analogous +performance mods every other ship worth leaving an hangar allows to do) you'll still die for a profit because the tank drops considerably.

This is what I object to. Zero tank dying is OK (but should reward little, not from 16.5M upwards). Balanced tank dying is OK but should not be profitable.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1403 - 2012-07-27 19:25:43 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:


Nope. Wrong again. A Hulk with tank modules in every slot but 1 is still easily ganked by 3 T1 Catalysts. Expecting a Hulk to sacrifice every bit of yield and every mid, low and rig slot to maximize it's tank is stupid. No other ship needs to go to such lengths just to exist.


Show me the fitting of the 3 destroyer that allows you to burn though 23k of hp in 7 seconds.
Pipa Porto
#1404 - 2012-07-27 19:25:50 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Gankers will gank for a profit, and they'll gank for a laugh if they can inflict disproportionate damage on the target.
But requiring a group of 3 Tornados to grind up 300M ISK to simply attempt to kill a 180M ISK Mackinaw with a midslot tank?


You're exaggerating wildly. If 3 T1 Catalysts can gank a tanked Hulk now (which they easily can) it won't take 3 T3 Battlecruisers to do the same thing after this rebalance. Remove the ability to make profit from your ganking calculations. It doesn't belong.


Only if you don't bother to tank the Hulk.


Nope. Wrong again. A Hulk with tank modules in every slot but 1 is still easily ganked by 3 T1 Catalysts. Expecting a Hulk to sacrifice every bit of yield and every mid, low and rig slot to maximize it's tank is stupid. No other ship needs to go to such lengths just to exist.


Only in .5 space. Besides that, a 0 MLU Hulk still mines more than any other ship in the GAME. No other ship is better at its role with no role enhancing modules than every other ship no matter how they're fit.

Fly to .8-1.0 space (still has the most profitable HS ore), and you can't be ganked profitably if you go midslot and rig only tank.

Miners who are ATK can also fit no tank and survive every single gank attempt, profitable or not.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1405 - 2012-07-27 19:26:43 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


You also make a profit if they fit a tank that still lets them have a semblance of efficiency.
IE even if you fit a DC but still want to use 1 MLU (analogous +performance mods every other ship worth leaving an hangar allows to do) you'll still die for a profit because the tank drops considerably.

This is what I object to. Zero tank dying is OK (but should reward little, not from 16.5M upwards). Balanced tank dying is OK but should not be profitable.


You dont make isk on a well tanked hulk even with a MLU fitted.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1406 - 2012-07-27 19:27:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank.


10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon.

Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP.

Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay.
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#1407 - 2012-07-27 19:28:50 UTC
OMG the whinage... it's like Warp 2 Zero all over again.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1408 - 2012-07-27 19:29:49 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank.


10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon.

Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP.

Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay.


They hulk on sisi gets a better tank than on live and I have a hulk fit for 33k. Less lies please.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1409 - 2012-07-27 19:34:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank.


10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon.

Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP.

Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay.


They hulk on sisi gets a better tank than on live and I have a hulk fit for 33k. Less lies please.


This fit on SiSi has 22k EHP

[Hulk, Hulk, tank]

Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Dave Stark
#1410 - 2012-07-27 19:34:37 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank.


10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon.

Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP.

Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay.


actually the mack just gets a flat 25% bonus, it's 5% per mining barge level not exhumer level and mining barge V is a pre-req so it's basically default for every mack to have the 25% bonus.

all mining ships have 350m3 cargo, except the covetor which has 500.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1411 - 2012-07-27 19:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


You also make a profit if they fit a tank that still lets them have a semblance of efficiency.
IE even if you fit a DC but still want to use 1 MLU (analogous +performance mods every other ship worth leaving an hangar allows to do) you'll still die for a profit because the tank drops considerably.

This is what I object to. Zero tank dying is OK (but should reward little, not from 16.5M upwards). Balanced tank dying is OK but should not be profitable.


You dont make isk on a well tanked hulk even with a MLU fitted.


I don't care about hulks but about macks. Prove me you can have 1 MLU mack that can survive the equivalent in catalysts of an average of 1 plate drop (16.5M) + half its mods and drones. It's about 4 catalysts worth of value.

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1412 - 2012-07-27 19:37:13 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
actually the mack just gets a flat 25% bonus, it's 5% per mining barge level not exhumer level and mining barge V is a pre-req so it's basically default for every mack to have the 25% bonus.


It had 50% bonus (10%/level).
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1413 - 2012-07-27 19:37:39 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Because at the moment you do make a profit if they dont fit a tank.


10 mil for tank fit with T2 suitcase for Charon.

Brick tanked Hulk with SiSi stats has 22k EHP.

Cargoholds are smaller than they were before. And Mack gets only 5% per level bonus to ore bay.


They hulk on sisi gets a better tank than on live and I have a hulk fit for 33k. Less lies please.


This fit on SiSi has 22k EHP

[Hulk, Hulk, tank]

Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I




Put a meta EM Hardener on there and see what it changes to?
Dave Stark
#1414 - 2012-07-27 19:39:08 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
actually the mack just gets a flat 25% bonus, it's 5% per mining barge level not exhumer level and mining barge V is a pre-req so it's basically default for every mack to have the 25% bonus.


It had 50% bonus (10%/level).


indeed it did. currently the mackinaw's ore bay is less than 1 cycle of mining larger than it's t1 counterpart's.
Suqq Madiq
#1415 - 2012-07-27 19:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Suqq Madiq
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


This fit on SiSi has 22k EHP

[Hulk, Hulk, tank]

Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I





[Hulk, Incredible Hulk]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

32k w/ Heat, T2 rigs, 3 CPU and 0 PG to spare. I'd LOVE to see the Hulk fit that has more. And this thing is an abomination. Nobody should be forced to fit this way just to survive a few Catalysts out for profit.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1416 - 2012-07-27 19:44:54 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Put a meta EM Hardener on there and see what it changes to?


23,7k
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1417 - 2012-07-27 19:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Wuxi Wuxilla
Quote:

[Hulk, Cheap Highsec Tank]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Internal Force Field Array I

Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


32.981 EHP heated and really cheap

Quote:

[Hulk, expensive highsec tank]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hornet EC-300 x5
Mining Drone II x5

Needs Genolutions + PG5, so about 60mil more expensive than your t2 rig fit, but 37129 ehp heated. You also don't lose your implants when your Hulk gets blown up (unless you are afk), so actually cheaper in the long run.

Quote:

[Hulk, MLUII + Tank]
Damage Control II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


26.318 ehp heated

/edit: All TQ stats
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1418 - 2012-07-27 19:51:56 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:


[Hulk, Incredible Hulk]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

32k w/ Heat, T2 rigs, 3 CPU and 0 PG to spare. I'd LOVE to see the Hulk fit that has more. And this thing is an abomination. Nobody should be forced to fit this way just to survive a few Catalysts out for profit.


You only need to survive 3. After that 99% of people will leave you alone so a hulk can fit a MLU and be rather secure.
Suqq Madiq
#1419 - 2012-07-27 19:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Suqq Madiq
The last fit Wuxi linked is realistic and yet can be easily busted by 3 T1 Catalysts worth less than a combined 10mil ISK.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1420 - 2012-07-27 19:54:19 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
The last fit is realistic and yet can be easily busted by 3 T1 Catalysts worth less than a combined 10mil ISK.


No it wont. Again we have tested this hence why we did not go after these supertank hulks in our interdiction.