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Many dead in shooting at Batman premier in Denver...
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Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#261 - 2012-07-27 15:22:10 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
People without the heat will resort to other means...

and get stopped by someone with a gun.


That kind of thing happens a lot. I count as much as 15 to 20 news clips a year, where a responsible gun owner stops a criminal. But those instances rarely made the national headlines. People don't pay attention to the good guys... they only pay attention to the occasional weirdo.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#262 - 2012-07-27 15:39:14 UTC
And now I bring you one of the biggest flaws in the representative house....

the ability to tack ANYTHING into a bill that is entirely unrelated to what you are tacking in.

Two birds, one stone perhaps? It's for the cheeeeeeeldrennnnn! You can't be against it? You are? Why do you want to hurt cheeeeeeeeldrennnn?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#263 - 2012-07-27 17:37:22 UTC
Big Bossu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And meanwhile in Colorado...

Uninsured Aurora survivor faces $ 2,000,000 in medical bills

Get shot in your head, live, and pay U$ 2,000,000 even although you're too poor to be insured. Lol


But instead of getting health insurance, go to movie premiers?


Methinks the movie was slightly more affordableBlink
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#264 - 2012-07-27 17:42:42 UTC
Didn't we just have a whole big discussion about Obamacare?

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Big Bossu
Primal Instinct Inc.
The Initiative.
#265 - 2012-07-27 18:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Big Bossu
baltec1 wrote:
Big Bossu wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And meanwhile in Colorado...

Uninsured Aurora survivor faces $ 2,000,000 in medical bills

Get shot in your head, live, and pay U$ 2,000,000 even although you're too poor to be insured. Lol


But instead of getting health insurance, go to movie premiers?


Methinks the movie was slightly more affordableBlink


Quote:
(CBS News) Victim Caleb Medley was shot in the eye at the Aurora movie theater massacre and remains in intensive care in an induced coma. In the same hospital, one floor away, his wife Katie is about to give birth to their first child.


I think this having a child is even more affordable!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#266 - 2012-07-27 18:51:28 UTC
Big Bossu wrote:


I think this having a child is even more affordable!


It might beUgh
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#267 - 2012-07-27 18:55:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Big Bossu wrote:


I think this having a child is even more affordable!


It might beUgh



Having children does cost an eye (no pun, seriously)

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#268 - 2012-07-27 19:34:24 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:



Having children does cost an eye (no pun, seriously)


I know its wrong but I laughedOops
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#269 - 2012-07-27 19:57:05 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

...If the victim is an armed criminal...


At this point you are just trolling trolling. If you were to say such a thing inside a female support group for sexual crime victims.... troll troll troll... I'm not gonna discuss anything else with you. You are just a troll.


FACT: most (and it's a large most) firearm assaults are from criminals assaulting other criminals
FACT: most (and it's a large most) armed assaults do not imply firearms, rather other kinds of weapons

FACT: most firearm murders are criminals shooting other criminals
FACT: most murders do not imply firearms

Now ask yourself why in the USA it's exaclty the opposite.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#270 - 2012-07-27 19:58:34 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

...If the victim is an armed criminal...


At this point you are just trolling trolling. If you were to say such a thing inside a female support group for sexual crime victims.... troll troll troll... I'm not gonna discuss anything else with you. You are just a troll.


FACT: most (and it's a large most) firearm assaults are from criminals assaulting other criminals
FACT: most (and it's a large most) armed assaults do not imply firearms, rather other kinds of weapons

FACT: most firearm murders are criminals shooting other criminals
FACT: most murders do not imply firearms

Now ask yourself why in the USA it's exaclty the opposite.


Again I like your excellent use of citations.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
#271 - 2012-07-27 20:24:13 UTC
I really like how this thread has nothing to do with the shooting in Aurora other than occasionally using a victim for one's propagandist needs. As usual you guys are stellar awesome. Go back to talking about being gangster and Spain or whatever it is you all are bitching about.
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#272 - 2012-07-27 20:25:53 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

...If the victim is an armed criminal...


At this point you are just trolling trolling. If you were to say such a thing inside a female support group for sexual crime victims.... troll troll troll... I'm not gonna discuss anything else with you. You are just a troll.


FACT: most (and it's a large most) firearm assaults are from criminals assaulting other criminals
FACT: most (and it's a large most) armed assaults do not imply firearms, rather other kinds of weapons

FACT: most firearm murders are criminals shooting other criminals
FACT: most murders do not imply firearms

Now ask yourself why in the USA it's exaclty the opposite.


Dude you have been downgraded from troll to shiptoaster. Sure, every grocery store that has ever been robbed is a criminal? Every citizen that has been car-jacked at gun point... a criminal? That's not even a bad troll... is just shiptoasting.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#273 - 2012-07-27 20:28:22 UTC
Overseer Aliena wrote:
I really like how this thread has nothing to do with the shooting in Aurora other than occasionally using a victim for one's propagandist needs. As usual you guys are stellar awesome. Go back to talking about being gangster and Spain or whatever it is you all are bitching about.


I wish there were more info on the Aurora incident. I would like some stats as per how many died from wounds from the shotgun, how many from the .40 and how many from the so called "assault weapon". But I doubt those numbers will ever show up.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#274 - 2012-07-27 20:42:26 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Dude you have been downgraded from troll to shiptoaster. Sure, every grocery store that has ever been robbed is a criminal? Every citizen that has been car-jacked at gun point... a criminal? That's not even a bad troll... is just shiptoasting.


Car-jacked at gun point? In Spain? ROTFL! Lol

This is not the USA, chaval. I've spent a lot of time and words trying to tell you how different laws and a different culture produce different crime and different criminals, and all I got from you is trolling...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#275 - 2012-07-27 20:46:02 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

Car-jacked at gun point? In Spain? ROTFL! Lol

This is not the USA, chaval. I've spent a lot of time and words trying to tell you how different laws and a different culture produce different crime and different criminals, and all I got from you is trolling...


Don't make a blank statement to provoke a reaction and then come back saying "oh I was talking about Spain only". Troll...

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#276 - 2012-07-27 20:54:45 UTC
Still not seeing those citations. Just gonna have to assume that you are blowing **** out of your ass yet again.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Shameless Avenger
Can Preachers of Kador
#277 - 2012-07-27 21:27:07 UTC
I looked around trying to find more info on the weapons used...

From this article we get that the gunman used the shotgun first, then switched to AR-15, which jammed, and then finished with a handgun.

Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once).

The shotgun is another puzzle. Shotgun shells can have hundreds of small pellets (for birds) or one gigantic slug (for deer). Here again, he might have killed a few with it, or might have killed none.

The handgun was first reported to be a glock .40 but later it was corrected to be a Les Baer .45 pistol. If my info is correct (1911 fans correct me if I'm wrong), that holds 8 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber... 9 rounds total. The lethality of the of 45ACP cartridge afaik is about 90% for victims that had only one shot (again, correct me if I'm wrong). From that I honestly believe most of the fatalities were from the handgun.

It was also reported that the gunman was using a tactical vest. I have no doubt he had extra magazines for the 45 in it. I'm not sure if this gun is a "last-shot-hold-open" or not. If it is, it would be real easy and fast even for a novice to change magazines.

Personally, I'm not in favor of any gun-bans AT ALL. But if something is to get banned, lets at least ban the weapon that was most lethal, and not the one that "looked" lethal. Such measure would at least make *some* sense.

Several countries (Brazil for example) have gun laws that restrict civilians from using handgun calibers bigger than 380ACP. The idea is that you can defend yourself, but are less likely to kill. Anybody from Vera Cruz please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you go to Europe, several law enforcement agencies use the 380ACP as the standard issue round. (our Spain friend can comment on this).

Like I said, while I'm against any time of restrictions. Caliber restrictions on handguns do make more sense (1911 fans please don't hate me). And no, I'm not saying it just because I have an itty bitty tiny 380ACP pocket pistol myself. The 380ACP serves a purpose when carrying conceal in 100 degrees Floridian weather, wearing only a t-shirt and short pants.

"This is the Ninja. He will scan you down; he will salvage your wrecks and there shall be no aggro"
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#278 - 2012-07-27 22:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Shameless Avenger wrote:
I looked around trying to find more info on the weapons used...

From this article we get that the gunman used the shotgun first, then switched to AR-15, which jammed, and then finished with a handgun.

Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once).

The shotgun is another puzzle. Shotgun shells can have hundreds of small pellets (for birds) or one gigantic slug (for deer). Here again, he might have killed a few with it, or might have killed none.

The handgun was first reported to be a glock .40 but later it was corrected to be a Les Baer .45 pistol. If my info is correct (1911 fans correct me if I'm wrong), that holds 8 rounds in the magazine and 1 in the chamber... 9 rounds total. The lethality of the of 45ACP cartridge afaik is about 90% for victims that had only one shot (again, correct me if I'm wrong). From that I honestly believe most of the fatalities were from the handgun.

It was also reported that the gunman was using a tactical vest. I have no doubt he had extra magazines for the 45 in it. I'm not sure if this gun is a "last-shot-hold-open" or not. If it is, it would be real easy and fast even for a novice to change magazines.

Personally, I'm not in favor of any gun-bans AT ALL. But if something is to get banned, lets at least ban the weapon that was most lethal, and not the one that "looked" lethal. Such measure would at least make *some* sense.

Several countries (Brazil for example) have gun laws that restrict civilians from using handgun calibers bigger than 380ACP. The idea is that you can defend yourself, but are less likely to kill. Anybody from Vera Cruz please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you go to Europe, several law enforcement agencies use the 380ACP as the standard issue round. (our Spain friend can comment on this).

Like I said, while I'm against any time of restrictions. Caliber restrictions on handguns do make more sense (1911 fans please don't hate me). And no, I'm not saying it just because I have an itty bitty tiny 380ACP pocket pistol myself. The 380ACP serves a purpose when carrying conceal in 100 degrees Floridian weather, wearing only a t-shirt and short pants.




Be mindful that a caliber restriction on handguns would unearth a long argument over the weight versus speed issue of handgun rounds. While the .45 is heavier and thus considered to have more stopping power, it's a lot slower, being subsonic, and has less penetration. That fact that holmes went to either a .45 or a .40, both subsonic rounds, may be what reduced the death toll because these rounds are not well known for going through human targets.

A 9mm is smaller, around the diameter of a .380 too, but much faster. I have seen 9mm go through steel plate and ballistic kevlar that a subsonic round could not.

A .38 Super Comp, around the same bullet size of a 9mm, at 1600FPS will go through body armor up to level 3a. But also, a .460 Rowland, a .45 sized bullet, a little bigger, but in +P+ loadout, also does 1600 FPS.

Stats like this are the reason why we only wore body armor to protect the person we were protecting, not for our own sakes. But otherwise the concept of an "armor piercing bullet", usually delivered by hyperventilating media hoplohphobes, is quite comical.


The .45 and the Glock are "last shot slide lock" but if you are not holding the gun properly or have crap magazines, this does not always work.

Regarding the Beta C mag, they cost around 300 bucks, and in the two times I have seen them in use, they were not very good. Once I saw one in a rifle course of fire where it did jam a lot. And a few years later I saw an attempt at using one iin a machine gun where an "out of battery" detonation occured, blowing the magazine out of the well, in pieces, along with a few pieces of the gun too. I would not use one of these magazines for serious reasons with a borrowed 10' pole. Holme's handlers must have overlooked this as they dressed him up.

Nice article on why you should want high capacity magazines.

Finally, while people like to be snarky and say that incidents with guns happen in America because we have guns, I say it's because we have a society where people can go batshit crazy and nobody knows or cares until something happens. Guns have been around longer than society has been a cesspool, but I don't see calls to reverse that trend. Would prefer that instead of turning the whole land into one big padded cell.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2012-07-27 23:31:20 UTC
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once).


It's more a maintenance thing, I don't think the guy that tried to wield 3 firearms at once has the first clue about weapons maintenance. My M16(A4!) only ever jammed once on me when I put too many rounds in the magazine so it double fed.

Also those high capacity magazines do have a rather crappy track record of reliability P

You want high capacity get something belt fed

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#280 - 2012-07-28 02:40:00 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Shameless Avenger wrote:
Most of the media is focusing on the AR and the fact that the gunman was using a high capacity 100-rounds magazine. But nobody actually knows how many rounds were fired with the AR before it jammed. I might have been 2 or 3 rounds for all we know. ARs are known to jam a lot, specially when used with modified after market magazines (I've seen this happen at the range more than once).


It's more a maintenance thing, I don't think the guy that tried to wield 3 firearms at once has the first clue about weapons maintenance. My M16(A4!) only ever jammed once on me when I put too many rounds in the magazine so it double fed.

Also those high capacity magazines do have a rather crappy track record of reliability P

You want high capacity get something belt fed




Here, strap your bacon onto this.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!