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Initial mining barge changes are on the test server
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Dave stark
#241 - 2012-07-27 19:04:44 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

They dropped it down? Or did I screw up in reading basic numbers (entirely possible).


uhm, yesterday the mining barge bonus dropped from 10% cargo to 5% cargo and the ret got an ore hold buff of 2.5k.
ret gets 28k, mack gets 31k (rounded) unless you need the tank the mackinaw is very unappealing right now in comparison to it's little brother.


... The Mack's Ore bay is like the only change they got right. There is literally no problem with the cavernous bay on a ship designed to have a cavernous bay.

The problem is that it's massive tank takes away from the Skiff's role, and the Skiff's big Ore bay takes away from the Mack's role.


another thing i find disconcerting is that going from procurer > skiff and cov > hulk feels like an upgrade for their role.

less than once cycle of extra space doesn't feel like an upgrade.
Vern Aldin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2012-07-27 19:24:06 UTC
If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?

All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately.
Dave stark
#243 - 2012-07-27 19:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Vern Aldin wrote:
If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?

All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately.


because they have less strips to load, so they need less crystals, so they need less space.
not to mention if you're not mining in a fleet you're more likely to cherry pick, therefore even less crystals are needed.
Infinite Force
#244 - 2012-07-27 19:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Vern Aldin wrote:
If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?

All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately.

Dave pointed out half of the issue.

The other half is that you do NOT need to carry a full set of crystals (e.g. for every ore type). You only need to carry a subset + spares (3 ores + 1 spare for Barges & 5 ores + 2 spares for Exhumers -- is what I'm pusing for).

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Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#245 - 2012-07-27 19:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Rivers
Infinite Force wrote:
Vern Aldin wrote:
If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?

All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately.

Dave pointed out half of the issue.

The other half is that you do NOT need to carry a full set of crystals (e.g. for every ore type). You only need to carry a subset + spares (3 ores + 1 spare for Barges & 5 ores + 2 spares for Exhumers -- is what I'm pusing for).


I think the option to be able to carry a full set of crystals is valid. Do not sell short by asking for too little, no we don't need a full set of crystals, but if you wanted to lug around 2 full sets, why not? Some people only bother with 1-2 sets, some take out 3-5 sets, and some people take as much as possible without interfering with the amount room needed for mining cycles.

Everyone has a different mining style, why is your choice the one for everyone?

Also, think of the wonderful kill mails if a hulk gets ganked with a few hundred cyrstals sitting in it.

Senex Legio
Infinite Force
#246 - 2012-07-27 20:12:03 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Vern Aldin wrote:
If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?

All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately.

Dave pointed out half of the issue.

The other half is that you do NOT need to carry a full set of crystals (e.g. for every ore type). You only need to carry a subset + spares (3 ores + 1 spare for Barges & 5 ores + 2 spares for Exhumers -- is what I'm pusing for).


I think the option to be able to carry a full set of crystals is valid. Do not sell short by asking for too little, no we don't need a full set of crystals, but if you wanted to lug around 2 full sets, why not? Some people only bother with 1-2 sets, some take out 3-5 sets, and some people take as much as possible without interfering with the amount room needed for mining cycles.

Everyone has a different mining style, why is your choice the one for everyone?

Also, think of the wonderful kill mails if a hulk gets ganked with a few hundred cyrstals sitting in it.

It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.

Due to that, it's necessary to think what is necessary and what isn't. It is necessary to carry "X" amount of crystals & spares for "Y" types of Ore. It is not necessary to carry crystals for all 15 (Mercoxit excluded) ores plus spares - even if we'd like to.

Yes, the killmails would be interesting, but unless you create a crystal hold (similiar to the fuel bays on caps), you won't get it. What I'm shooting for is something reasonable that can be done without being overly harsh or overly generous - trying to run it down the middle / upper middle road.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#247 - 2012-07-27 20:24:37 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Vern Aldin wrote:
If the argument for not being able to carry a full set of crystals in the Hulk is that it is meant to be the fleet mining ship then why do the Mackinaw and Skiff also have a 350m3 cargo bay?

All of the mining ships should be able to carry a full set of crystals at a minimum. I do not mind having a tiny cargo bay but if that is the case further reduce the m3 of mining crystals appropriately.

Dave pointed out half of the issue.

The other half is that you do NOT need to carry a full set of crystals (e.g. for every ore type). You only need to carry a subset + spares (3 ores + 1 spare for Barges & 5 ores + 2 spares for Exhumers -- is what I'm pusing for).


I think the option to be able to carry a full set of crystals is valid. Do not sell short by asking for too little, no we don't need a full set of crystals, but if you wanted to lug around 2 full sets, why not? Some people only bother with 1-2 sets, some take out 3-5 sets, and some people take as much as possible without interfering with the amount room needed for mining cycles.

Everyone has a different mining style, why is your choice the one for everyone?

Also, think of the wonderful kill mails if a hulk gets ganked with a few hundred cyrstals sitting in it.

It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.

Due to that, it's necessary to think what is necessary and what isn't. It is necessary to carry "X" amount of crystals & spares for "Y" types of Ore. It is not necessary to carry crystals for all 15 (Mercoxit excluded) ores plus spares - even if we'd like to.

Yes, the killmails would be interesting, but unless you create a crystal hold (similiar to the fuel bays on caps), you won't get it. What I'm shooting for is something reasonable that can be done without being overly harsh or overly generous - trying to run it down the middle / upper middle road.


I don't think a crystal needs to be any bigger than 0.1m3 and they could reduce the cargo hold to 10m3 if they were readlly worried about hulks being used as haulers.

Senex Legio
Dave stark
#248 - 2012-07-27 20:26:04 UTC
Jake Rivers wrote:
I don't think a crystal needs to be any bigger than 0.1m3 and they could reduce the cargo hold to 10m3 if they were readlly worried about hulks being used as haulers.


then you have mining crystals being an absurdly op way of compressing nocxium.
Infinite Force
#249 - 2012-07-27 20:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Jake Rivers wrote:
I don't think a crystal needs to be any bigger than 0.1m3 and they could reduce the cargo hold to 10m3 if they were readlly worried about hulks being used as haulers.

Actually, you would be able to use mining crystals in mineral compression at that point. They would break things at that point.

Dave stark wrote:
then you have mining crystals being an absurdly op way of compressing nocxium.

Great minds think alike! lol

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Vern Aldin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2012-07-27 20:36:35 UTC
For a null sec miner it is extremely valuable to be able to carry around a full set of crystals. When mining in a hidden belt nearly all types of ore are present. Therefore to clear the site all types of crystals are needed. I am not asking for an upgrade. I am simply looking to preserve the ability to mine without having to constantly micro manage crystals. As it is, switching out crystals in strips is annoying enough. Having to dock up in the middle of a mining op to change out crystals sets is just another irritation. This is a game. This is a change to a mechanic which makes the game less enjoyable. Beyond that it is a matter of personal style.
Dave stark
#251 - 2012-07-27 20:38:35 UTC
alternate solution; let us put crystals in our ore bay.
Pipa Porto
#252 - 2012-07-27 20:43:12 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
I don't think a crystal needs to be any bigger than 0.1m3 and they could reduce the cargo hold to 10m3 if they were readlly worried about hulks being used as haulers.


then you have mining crystals being an absurdly op way of compressing nocxium.


You could make them mostly "extra" materials, like Bombs. That would fix their compression ratio.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ooda
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#253 - 2012-07-27 23:32:25 UTC
Can anyone explain to me why they had to nerf the hulk?
Srsly, you can't mine more than ~6k per cycle, and you can't store more than one cycle either.

Previously, you had the chance to store crystals for a large cluster - with this changes you can't, and you can't make use of 1500m3 ore-space either. Any reason for this nerf?
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#254 - 2012-07-27 23:32:45 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Second this, Empire bears seem to be under the illusion that nullsec and wh miners will ONLY use the hulk when in a fleet, when in fact we use hulks to solo mine and will keep doing it.


Why? The Mackinaw will probably yield more once you take dropoffs into account.

37k m3 vs 7500 (or Jetcans and switching ships)



IM still gona fly a hulk cus it has the highest yeild, Them saying that its better for fleet ops doesnt mean it only works there. Titans are supposed to be good as support and command ships but all you see if them blobbing. Nothing ccp intends actually happens.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#255 - 2012-07-27 23:34:56 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
alternate solution; let us put crystals in our ore bay.

Doesn't help unless you can use a can to manage them there.

A 350m3 cargo bay means that you can only use a small can to organise things, even with the reduced size of crystals that allows for only four crystals, spares on a retriever/Mack for two ore types. Which considering the ship is supposed to act without a hauler, solo, without support, simply isn't enough.

The cargoholds need to be increased or the crystal size needs to be drastically reduced... I suggested 5m3 before and I still think that's a good number.
The hauler arguement seems foolish from my perspective - a Thorax is already a better hauler than these things.
Dave stark
#256 - 2012-07-27 23:42:49 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
alternate solution; let us put crystals in our ore bay.

Doesn't help unless you can use a can to manage them there.


yes it does help, it gives you the 8k cargo space back in the hulk. it solves a problem by reverting it to the original state wherein the problem didn't exist.

you do not need a can to organise it at all. when you right click on the t2 strip miner it has an option to change the crystal to any other crystal and it even has options to load used crystals or unused crystals.
Pipa Porto
#257 - 2012-07-27 23:43:48 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Second this, Empire bears seem to be under the illusion that nullsec and wh miners will ONLY use the hulk when in a fleet, when in fact we use hulks to solo mine and will keep doing it.


Why? The Mackinaw will probably yield more once you take dropoffs into account.

37k m3 vs 7500 (or Jetcans and switching ships)



IM still gona fly a hulk cus it has the highest yeild, Them saying that its better for fleet ops doesnt mean it only works there. Titans are supposed to be good as support and command ships but all you see if them blobbing. Nothing ccp intends actually happens.


So you are going to take in less ore per hour because you want to see your hold fill faster?

The Mack is probably going to yield more Ore per hour if you take into account the time you take in warp with the Hulk or it's hauling ship.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#258 - 2012-07-27 23:46:36 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
It is true that everyone has a different mining style - however, CCP already has stated the cargoholds are being "nerfed" to avoid these specialized ships being used as haulers.


I suppose that creating a "crystals only" hold was too much of a challenge for CCP? That would fix the hauler cross over.

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Infinite Force
#259 - 2012-07-27 23:49:07 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Jacob Holland wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
alternate solution; let us put crystals in our ore bay.

Doesn't help unless you can use a can to manage them there.


yes it does help, it gives you the 8k cargo space back in the hulk. it solves a problem by reverting it to the original state wherein the problem didn't exist.

you do not need a can to organise it at all. when you right click on the t2 strip miner it has an option to change the crystal to any other crystal and it even has options to load used crystals or unused crystals.

Yes, but the reload-option has this nasty tendancy to take unused crystals when it has the option - even when you select "used" ...

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Pipa Porto
#260 - 2012-07-28 00:01:05 UTC
Ark T1 Crystal is 30m3
Ark T2 Crystal is 50m3

New Cargo Hold is 350 for the Skiff and Mack (IIRC).

Skiff can hold 7 T2 Ark Crystals or 11 T1 Crystals.

That means the Skiff can hold up to 8 Ores worth of Crystals (it takes 1 Crystal to change) and 11 with T1.

The Mackinaw can hold 4 Ores worth with 1 spare, or 5 Ores with 1 spare T1.

Probably could use a small buff on the Mack Cargo bay, since it's got 2 Strips.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto