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Mining barge changes [now with feedback]
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Dave Stark
#301 - 2012-07-27 17:55:59 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:

And you do need spares, as the current format, it is impossible to check each crystal for wear when you are docked


wrong.. show info


and the fact that unused crystals stack, ones that have been loaded won't stack even if they're undamaged.
Infinite Force
#302 - 2012-07-27 18:11:10 UTC
Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:

Based on the current implementation of the new crystal sizes & cargoholds, I'm consolidating my other two related posts here so people don't have to look too hard for them...

There are 15 Ore types (Mercoxit excluded).
T1 crystals - 15 m3
T2 crystals - 25 m3

Let's standardize here a little now.

1. For the T1 Barges, it's being asked that they be able to carry 3 T1 Ore Crystal types + 1 spare. That is 20% of the total Ore types (3 / 15).

2. For the T2 Exhumers, it's being asked that they carry 5 Ore crystal types + 2 spares. That is 33% of the total Ore types (5 / 15).

Anything more than this, and you can have it delivered or dock up to get more.

Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types

Procurer / Skiff : 1 Strip
- T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 15 * 1 * 2 * 3 = 90 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 1 * 3 * 5 = 375 m3

Retriever / Mackinaw : 2 Strips
- T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 15 * 2 * 2 * 3 = 180 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 2 * 3 * 5 = 750 m3

Covetor / Hulk : 3 Strips
- T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 16 * 3 * 2 * 3 = 270 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 1125 m3

I think this is a step in the right direction with the crystal reductions, but the Cargoholds still need to be brought into line with the ship speciality.

As far as balancing the cargoholds, the CH should be sized based on the number of strips the ship has.

At 350m3 across the board right now, the Skiff is about right, the Mack has ~46% of what it needs and the Hulk sits at ~33% of its need.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#303 - 2012-07-27 18:25:55 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:.

not everyone reads this forum

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Infinite Force
#304 - 2012-07-27 18:31:52 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:.

not everyone reads this forum

Nor do they search them either :(

No matter. After 16 pages, it's always good to summarize - even if it's in the OP. (hint, hint)

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#305 - 2012-07-27 18:40:44 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:.

not everyone reads this forum

Nor do they search them either :(

No matter. After 16 pages, it's always good to summarize - even if it's in the OP. (hint, hint)


The man with the Gammy eye has a point. update the OP!
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#306 - 2012-07-27 18:55:50 UTC
Denidil wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:

And you do need spares, as the current format, it is impossible to check each crystal for wear when you are docked


wrong.. show info


Okay, impossible was the wrong wording, impractical is what I should of said.

When you have 3-4 hulks heading out, there is no way I want to do show info and scroll down to check 20-50 crystals. As these suckers do no stack, it sure the hell leads to a long page of crystals when sorting through them.

Which is why I just stick a few extra spares in the cargo hold, due to it being simpler than checking each used crystal for damage.

Senex Legio
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#307 - 2012-07-27 19:01:35 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Having two threads basically addressing the same issues kind of bites, but here goes:

Based on the current implementation of the new crystal sizes & cargoholds, I'm consolidating my other two related posts here so people don't have to look too hard for them...

There are 15 Ore types (Mercoxit excluded).
T1 crystals - 15 m3
T2 crystals - 25 m3

Let's standardize here a little now.

1. For the T1 Barges, it's being asked that they be able to carry 3 T1 Ore Crystal types + 1 spare. That is 20% of the total Ore types (3 / 15).

2. For the T2 Exhumers, it's being asked that they carry 5 Ore crystal types + 2 spares. That is 33% of the total Ore types (5 / 15).

Anything more than this, and you can have it delivered or dock up to get more.

Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types

Procurer / Skiff : 1 Strip
- T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 15 * 1 * 2 * 3 = 90 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 1 * 3 * 5 = 375 m3

Retriever / Mackinaw : 2 Strips
- T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 15 * 2 * 2 * 3 = 180 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 2 * 3 * 5 = 750 m3

Covetor / Hulk : 3 Strips
- T1 crystals w/ 3 ores: 16 * 3 * 2 * 3 = 270 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 5 ores: 25 * 3 * 3 * 5 = 1125 m3

I think this is a step in the right direction with the crystal reductions, but the Cargoholds still need to be brought into line with the ship speciality.

As far as balancing the cargoholds, the CH should be sized based on the number of strips the ship has.

At 350m3 across the board right now, the Skiff is about right, the Mack has ~46% of what it needs and the Hulk sits at ~33% of its need.


CCP wants those tiny cargoholds so the hauler market will increase, so it makes sense to make the cargohold useless for anything but a place to stash the crystals. 2 of my miners are currently training industrial skills, due to no longer being able to use a hulk to run around gathering up PI products. Which I am fine with, they just need to reduce the crystal size to a point where we will still have the selection to use we currently enjoy. I really do not understand why these things were made so large in the first place.

Senex Legio
Annette Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#308 - 2012-07-27 19:04:37 UTC
Ok dumb question.

Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.

Dave Stark
#309 - 2012-07-27 19:06:06 UTC
Annette Aumer wrote:
Ok dumb question.

Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.



because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals.
Infinite Force
#310 - 2012-07-27 19:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Jake Rivers wrote:
CCP wants those tiny cargoholds so the hauler market will increase, so it makes sense to make the cargohold useless for anything but a place to stash the crystals. 2 of my miners are currently training industrial skills, due to no longer being able to use a hulk to run around gathering up PI products. Which I am fine with, they just need to reduce the crystal size to a point where we will still have the selection to use we currently enjoy. I really do not understand why these things were made so large in the first place.

Jake, I think you mis-understand. The storage space is NOT for hauling, it's for Crystals and mining equipment.

If you're picking up PI in a Barge/Exhumer, you're doing it wrong.

They were made large in the first place for a couple of reasons:
1. You had a huge cargohold to use.
2. It made you limit how many crystals (ore types) you could carry crystals for - but you could still carry 3 - 5 types.

For #2, the point now is that a mining ship should still be able to carry 3 - 5 types of crystals (20 - 33% of the total types of ore) + spares (see prior post on the subject).

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#311 - 2012-07-27 19:12:06 UTC
mackinaw:

2 crystals in strips, 4 ore types

3*3+1 in hold, 2 in strips = 4 ores + spare

10*25=250m3 .. it's bay is big enough with the size reduction


in fact you have room for a fifth ore

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Sigras
Conglomo
#312 - 2012-07-27 19:24:11 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Annette Aumer wrote:
Ok dumb question.

Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.



because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals.


wow you guys are idiots, look at the new volumes for the new mining crystals RollRollRoll
Dave Stark
#313 - 2012-07-27 19:24:41 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Annette Aumer wrote:
Ok dumb question.

Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.



because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals.


wow you guys are idiots, look at the new volumes for the new mining crystals RollRollRoll


wow you're an idiot. go and look at what they did to the hulk's cargo bay.
Infinite Force
#314 - 2012-07-27 19:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Denidil wrote:
mackinaw:

2 crystals in strips, 4 ore types

3*3+1 in hold, 2 in strips = 4 ores + spare

10*25=250m3 .. it's bay is big enough with the size reduction

in fact you have room for a fifth ore

Okay, if we adjust to a standard of 4 Ores + spares (yes, t2 ships should get 2 spares / strip, not 1):

Minimum Cargohold Size = Crystal Size * # of Strips * # of crystals (active + spares) * # of ore types

Procurer / Skiff : 1 Strip
- T1 crystals w/ 4 ores: 15 * 1 * 2 * 4 = 120 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 4 ores: 25 * 1 * 3 * 4 = 300 m3

Retriever / Mackinaw : 2 Strips
- T1 crystals w/ 4 ores: 15 * 2 * 2 * 4 = 240 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 4 ores: 25 * 2 * 3 * 4 = 600 m3

Covetor / Hulk : 3 Strips
- T1 crystals w/ 4 ores: 16 * 3 * 2 * 4 = 360 m3
- T2 crystals w/ 4 ores: 25 * 3 * 3 * 4 = 900 m3

Even with 2 crystals on the Mack (main + spare), you still need 400m3 of cargohold space for 4 Ores.
25 m3 / crystal * 2 strips * 2 crystals * 4 ores = 400 m3 (minimum).

Don't forget that you still need an extra 25m3 though to "allow" crystals to swap.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#315 - 2012-07-27 19:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jake Rivers
Annette Aumer wrote:
Ok dumb question.

Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.



In high sec, the belts vary in amount of ore, depending on the security status, 1.0 I think has just a few ores (2?), and a 0.5 has 5 or so types.

In low sec/null sec belts will have 3 or more extra ores in them, so there is a wider variety to mine. Usually you just focus on a few of the more profitable ores, and ignore the rest.

If you are doing grav sites, these vary on size, usually 1-3 types of crystals is more than enough if you are just going after the high end ores. If you are stripping the belt, either to make it respawn, or the highs are already gone and sometimes you just feel like hitting everything anyways then you are going to want a wider selection of crystals.

An excellent guide that shows the different grav site types you will encounter in null sec systems with a good industry index can be found here: http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/1006/Bloodtear_Industy_Index_Report.pdf

If you look at the ore tables you can see the varieties of ore in each grav site type, some are numerous and others are not, making it important to be able to have a decent selection of crystals when you are setting up in these types of grav sites for a long mining run.

Senex Legio
Sigras
Conglomo
#316 - 2012-07-27 19:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Dave stark wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Annette Aumer wrote:
Ok dumb question.

Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.



because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals.


wow you guys are idiots, look at the new volumes for the new mining crystals RollRollRoll


wow you're an idiot. go and look at what they did to the hulk's cargo bay.

wait . . . youre still complaining even though they gave you the ability to hold 17 crystals? thats 5 different types of ore! thats more than 1/3 of the different ore types IN THE WHOLE GAME!

what the heck more do you want?
Dave Stark
#317 - 2012-07-27 19:44:45 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Annette Aumer wrote:
Ok dumb question.

Why do you need such a large selection? I'm a low skill miner in a retriever currently. I watch the market and buy the ore I can refine into the best isk/m3 that is really if i want to spend time in 1 belt.. 2 ore's at the moment i'm focusing on.



because it's often more isk/hour to clear a belt than to cherry pick ore and move around so much. hence with 4 different ores in a belt you'll need 4 sets of crystals.


wow you guys are idiots, look at the new volumes for the new mining crystals RollRollRoll


wow you're an idiot. go and look at what they did to the hulk's cargo bay.

wait . . . youre still complaining even though they gave you the ability to hold 17 crystals? thats 4 different types of ore! thats more than 1/4 of the different ore types IN THE WHOLE GAME!

what the heck more do you want?


enough space for enough crystals to flip a grav site.
Commander A9
This Was The Way
Homicidal Tendencies.
#318 - 2012-07-27 19:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Commander A9
Perhaps I'm naive or just stubborn, but...being the hardcore miner that I am, a Hulk miner by the way, I'm not terribly enthused about the reduction in my ore bay, and the fact that cargo expander rigs are now useless...and that my capacitor takes longer to fully charge...and that my shield resistances are lower (but my total shields are higher)...

I mean, why would ORE, realistically, not only refuse to improve the defenses of their Hulk, while improving everything else, but also make a ship smaller than the Hulk (i.e., the Mackinaw) hold more than the Hulk?

Let's think about that for a second...

And am I reading this right for the Mackinaw? It's no longer a dedicated ice miner? ...Why not? What benefit does that bring anyone? Why only a 1% boost to its attributes per skill level?

I know some defense and powergrid/CPU changes were needed for mining ships (especially the Mackinaw), but why leave out the Hulk? Why give it no love?

Recommendations:

-enable ships wobbling in hangar view (pre-Captains Quarters)

-add more missions (NPC fleet vs. NPC fleets that actually shoot)

-STOP NERFING EVERYTHING!

Join Live Events!
Sigras
Conglomo
#319 - 2012-07-27 19:48:50 UTC
so wait . . .youre complaining that you cant have everything in every ship? If you want to flip a grav site, any grav site in a hulk, what are you doing with all that ore? are you having a hauler haul it to the POS/Station/rorqual for you? if so, guess what? they can haul crystals too.

The hulk is a FLEET mining ship, use your FLEET to bring you more crystals.

IMHO, they need to nerf the skiff's cargo bay cause it can hold 1 of every crystal in the game and thats all it needs. that should be the domain of the Mack as its supposed to be the self sufficient one.
Sigras
Conglomo
#320 - 2012-07-27 19:51:01 UTC
Commander A9 wrote:
Well...being the hardcore miner that I am, a Hulk miner by the way, I'm not terribly enthused about the reduction in my ore bay, and the fact that cargo expander rigs are now useless...and that my capacitor takes longer to fully charge...and that my shield resistances are lower (but my total shields are higher)...

I mean, why would ORE, realistically, not only refuse to improve the defenses of their Hulk, while improving everything else, but also make a ship smaller than the Hulk (i.e., the Mackinaw) hold more than the Hulk?

Let's think about that for a second...

And am I reading this right for the Mackinaw? It's no longer a dedicated ice miner? ...Why not? What benefit does that bring anyone? Why only a 1% boost to its attributes per skill level?

I know some defense and powergrid/CPU changes were needed for mining ships (especially the Mackinaw), but why leave out the Hulk? Why give it no love?

2 words: Game Balance

If you want to be the king of yield, you get to be vulnerable to suicide ganking. If you want to be immune to suicide ganks, you sacrifice some mining yield.