These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Tech Rebuff
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Pipa Porto
#101 - 2012-07-27 16:49:45 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
The tech fail lies not in the fact that the resources are only in a specific area in the universe, but the fact that it is a passive generator with 0 effort to get.


You mean I can get my very own Tech moon with out having to scan moons, set up a POS, refuel it, collect the goo or defend the tower!? Sign me up bro.


Scan moon: Done once

Setting up POS: Done once

Refuelling: Ignored as stated earlier.

Collecting the goo: Oh my the backbreaking effort. Any regular miner would be so PROUD of you son. Pretty much falls into the same category as refuelling. Basically a trip or two every so many timeunits from X to Y. Oh wait, did I say trip? I mean jump. Man, logistics in nullsec. What a backbreaking activity it is.

Defending the tower: Yup, quite the effort when you have a huge alliance behind your back. Besides, how many times per week do you necessarily have to defend it with said alliance behind your back? 4 times? 10 times? Give me an average number so we can deepen our discussion regarding this part at least.



There are some 160k moons available for mining in EVE. There are maybe 15k profitable moons. There are only ~300 Tech moons. To find all the profitable ones, you have to scan 160k moons.

A Hundred and Sixty Thousand.

Defending the Tower: Minimum ~400 man hours of effort each time. Probably more.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-07-27 16:53:37 UTC
I thought that we were talking about the tech moons only now? Isn't that what everyone wants to fix? Or is there a problem with all other moons now all of a sudden?
Pipa Porto
#103 - 2012-07-27 16:57:43 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
I thought that we were talking about the tech moons only now? Isn't that what everyone wants to fix? Or is there a problem with all other moons now all of a sudden?



Then there are 160k moons to scan for ~300 Tech moons.

If you're starting out knowing where the moon is (and assuming it's unoccupied), you've skipped over a large amount of the work.

So, step 1 is: Kill the guy currently holding it. This requires an enormous amount of effort.

Step 2 is: Set up the POS. etc.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Sarcasim
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#104 - 2012-07-27 17:02:51 UTC
AlleyKat wrote:
[quote=evereplicant]ok ill say it again and ill keep saying it.

I agree with the OP. I am sick and tired of seeing large alliances taking every damn moon on the eve universe (yes thats including high sec and low sec) and then all they need to do is sit on them, anyone attacks them its 500 titans and supers defending it. Its WRONG and this is a massive issue with eve. Having all tech in venal also is just the biggest most stupid thing CCP have done.

There needs to be a complete overhaul of moon locations, a strategic review shall we say. Every region should have a pretty much equal amount of moons generating an equal amount of same type minerals.

Tech moons or any large income making moons should be very few say 10 per region and i still say they should be randomised every 3 months to new locations within the same region.

It stupid that people like goons can hold 150 high income moons and just make trillions.. its wrong very wrong and to be honest this is making me not want to play the game anymore.


I kinda understand your frustration.

However, game mechanics are firmly in place for anyone to take these systems - but I will agree it seems highly unlikely given the overwhelming odds against anyone who attempts to do so.

Just need enough dots.

AK[/quote

Even with enough dots to take it could it be held?
Big Bossu
Primal Instinct Inc.
The Initiative.
#105 - 2012-07-27 17:09:39 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
I thought that we were talking about the tech moons only now? Isn't that what everyone wants to fix? Or is there a problem with all other moons now all of a sudden?



Then there are 160k moons to scan for ~300 Tech moons.

If you're starting out knowing where the moon is (and assuming it's unoccupied), you've skipped over a large amount of the work.

So, step 1 is: Kill the guy currently holding it. This requires an enormous amount of effort.

Step 2 is: Set up the POS. etc.


Buff moon survey.
Sarcasim
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#106 - 2012-07-27 17:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarcasim
Danfen Fenix wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:

redistribution (and god forbid, rotation) is a dumb idea

if you want to know why, i have 160k reasons


Making it fade in/out is a good idea. Anyway you said you have 160K reasons, but then you didn't post a single one. Wtf?


I'll agree with him that fade in/out is a horrible idea, unless the resource stays on the moon (moving it to another moon is would just be completely...*shudders*)

It would be nice though for the almost complete 'dominance' of it in the North to be taken away, even if slightly though (either by adding more in the south, removing quite a bit from the North, or a bit of both. I'd go with the last P). I can understand why CCP did it like it is (to create a contested area)...but having just one main set in a quite small area, leads to the current situation. The moons need to be scattered that slight bit more around 0.0, with a goal of creating a wide area of conflict (pockets across all of 0.0), rather than trying to make one or two specific areas catalysts.



I like the random spawn idea of resources. Anyone recall SWG? You had to go survey find the materials and harvest. The quality of the materials was random as well. Best harvesting and manufacturing system to date imho.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2012-07-27 17:28:55 UTC
Goonswarm has been scanning moons for the better part of a decade, and kept all of those moonscans in a central database so the info has never been lost.

We've not come close to scanning half the moons in eve, despite years of work.
Tokclik
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-07-27 19:04:52 UTC
I too would like to play a game where my friends enormous amount of work and unimaginable collective effort of thousands goes unrewarded.

Also, in case you didn't get the memo, we have been advocating a tech nerf for quite some time. What I would be concerned about is when tech does becomes not worth the effort, we will move to greener pastures. Are you currently in those pastures?
Rain King
Playing Alone Sucks
#109 - 2012-07-27 20:39:32 UTC
I agree. Let's completely remove Tech.
Pipa Porto
#110 - 2012-07-27 20:42:22 UTC
Rain King wrote:
I agree. Let's completely remove Tech.


Then we'll be whining about the next bottleneck, just like the whining about R64s lead to their over-nerf and directly to the Tech bottleneck.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
None ofthe Above
#111 - 2012-07-27 21:26:17 UTC
Tarsus Zateki wrote:
Dear CCP,

Why did you put a bunch of valuable resources in one spot? My frightened gewnie mind can't handle the thought of resource motivated warfare and diplomacy. Please spread the technitium out so that everyone can have a fair and equitable share.

Signed,
The Mittani


Fixed your post. (Although to be fair, the second sentence doesn't really fit, I just can't be bothered to come up with something more appropriate for you.)

I love how your leadership when on the record saying this heavy concentration was a bad idea, decided to abuse the hell out of it to force CCP to fix it, and make "Scrooge McDuck" levels of ISK along the way... now that you rank and file GEWNS are so used to it... its suddenly a terrible idea to do what your leader suggested in the first place, and is STILL advocating last time I checked.

Go have the argument with The Mittani first and then come back here and school us pubbies.

Go ahead... we'll wait.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Pipa Porto
#112 - 2012-07-27 21:39:53 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Tarsus Zateki wrote:
Dear CCP,

Why did you put a bunch of valuable resources in one spot? My frightened gewnie mind can't handle the thought of resource motivated warfare and diplomacy. Please spread the technitium out so that everyone can have a fair and equitable share.

Signed,
The Mittani


Fixed your post. (Although to be fair, the second sentence doesn't really fit, I just can't be bothered to come up with something more appropriate for you.)

I love how your leadership when on the record saying this heavy concentration was a bad idea, decided to abuse the hell out of it to force CCP to fix it, and make "Scrooge McDuck" levels of ISK along the way... now that you rank and file GEWNS are so used to it... its suddenly a terrible idea to do what your leader suggested in the first place, and is STILL advocating last time I checked.

Go have the argument with The Mittani first and then come back here and school us pubbies.

Go ahead... we'll wait.


I guess you weren't around for the enormous threads about "R64 is OP, Nerf R64" that lead to the R64 nerf and Tech boom.

R64s are found all over EvE.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Syphon Lodian
Fabled Enterprises
#113 - 2012-07-27 21:42:12 UTC
It's not the tech that needs changing. It's still the elephant in the room that is the current way EVE conducts Nullsec. Timers and Cap ships.

That's all. This is why moongoo is fked. This is why null is fked.

I don't have any answers for any of this (remove timers lols) because I don't even do null, but it's pretty obvious (and has been for a very long time) what the problem is. I won't begrudge an alliance from taking what is rightfully theirs, no matter the numbers. But we can all agree the mechanics are counterproductive at this time.
None ofthe Above
#114 - 2012-07-27 22:31:18 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:


I love how your leadership when on the record saying this heavy concentration was a bad idea, decided to abuse the hell out of it to force CCP to fix it, and make "Scrooge McDuck" levels of ISK along the way... now that you rank and file GEWNS are so used to it... its suddenly a terrible idea to do what your leader suggested in the first place, and is STILL advocating last time I checked.

Go have the argument with The Mittani first and then come back here and school us pubbies.

Go ahead... we'll wait.


I guess you weren't around for the enormous threads about "R64 is OP, Nerf R64" that lead to the R64 nerf and Tech boom.

R64s are found all over EvE.


Not sure how this in anyway refutes anything I said although it seems to have meant to. Clearly I am missing something as I don't understand how your reply relates to my point.

I was simply pointed out The Mittani himself is on record as thinking the concentration was a bad idea. But now GEWNS are here in the forums defending the status quo.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Pipa Porto
#115 - 2012-07-27 22:42:26 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

I guess you weren't around for the enormous threads about "R64 is OP, Nerf R64" that lead to the R64 nerf and Tech boom.

R64s are found all over EvE.


Not sure how this in anyway refutes anything I said although it seems to have meant to. Clearly I am missing something as I don't understand how your reply relates to my point.

I was simply pointed out The Mittani himself is on record as thinking the concentration was a bad idea. But now GEWNS are here in the forums defending the status quo.


Redistribution of Moons would require some...
Call it a 2 minutes to warp between moons, align to a moon, shoot the probe, and initiate warp. Ignore the 10m at the end of each system, the time to go between systems, the time to restock bulky probes, the time to type up the screencaps into useful spreadsheets, and the amount of duplicated work because competing interests don't talk to each other.

There are some 160k Mineable Moons. Redistribution would cost EvE players a MINIMUM of 5,333 man hours of scanning moons. Scanning moons, by the way, Sucks. I've scanned systems. I want to shoot myself* halfway through the first system.

Most likely, the cost would be 4-5 times that, because resupply, waiting out hostiles, the 10m wait, and duplication of effort takes huge chunks out of the efficiency.

The concentration was a bad idea. A better idea than redistributing tech would be to change the stuff used to build T2 components back to the ratios it had with R64s. They're already widely distributed. Alchemy is already there as a pressure relief valve. Most importantly, they're already mapped. Tech stops being the bottleneck (or particularly valuable), and Valuable moons are found in varying concentrations all over EVE.



*figuratively

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2012-07-27 22:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsus Zateki
Because I'm not allowed to have my own opinion and must do whatever some arrogant internet spaceships big shot tells me am I right? The Mittani can say whatever he likes, I'll say what I like.

I believe we deserve all the tech in the game because we are outright better people than the rest of you. We have the numbers and organization and wealth to take whatever we want, when we want and you can't stop us. If that's a problem for you, do something about it in game, just like we have. Stop whining to the developers because the rest of the game is a room full of jealous kittens all squabbling over their own selfish wants.

What would happen if CCP redistributed tech? Whatever worthless pubbie alliance ends up with a few moons would suddenly find the most organized and efficient military force this game has ever seen showing up on their doorstep. They would chest beat for a few days like they always do. Then they would fall to pieces as each member of the alliance jumps ship to save themselves. As happens every single time we burn a region to the ground. The pubbie is incapable of teaming up effectively. The pubbie is unable to look past his own interests. The pubbie runs away after making sure his "friends" run slower than he does.

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.
Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2012-07-27 22:59:44 UTC
And who do you think is going to be getting rich off this new Alchemy doohickey? Our frighteningly effective financial team with the support or our nearly limitless capital. Go ahead CCP, give the pubbies a pacifier to suck on just don't let them see the goon in the shadows selling the pacifiers.

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.
None ofthe Above
#118 - 2012-07-27 23:02:13 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

I guess you weren't around for the enormous threads about "R64 is OP, Nerf R64" that lead to the R64 nerf and Tech boom.

R64s are found all over EvE.


Not sure how this in anyway refutes anything I said although it seems to have meant to. Clearly I am missing something as I don't understand how your reply relates to my point.

I was simply pointed out The Mittani himself is on record as thinking the concentration was a bad idea. But now GEWNS are here in the forums defending the status quo.


Redistribution of Moons would require some...
Call it a 2 minutes to warp between moons, align to a moon, shoot the probe, and initiate warp. Ignore the 10m at the end of each system, the time to go between systems, the time to restock bulky probes, the time to type up the screencaps into useful spreadsheets, and the amount of duplicated work because competing interests don't talk to each other.

There are some 160k Mineable Moons. Redistribution would cost EvE players a MINIMUM of 5,333 man hours of scanning moons. Scanning moons, by the way, Sucks. I've scanned systems. I want to shoot myself* halfway through the first system.

Most likely, the cost would be 4-5 times that, because resupply, waiting out hostiles, the 10m wait, and duplication of effort takes huge chunks out of the efficiency.

The concentration was a bad idea. A better idea than redistributing tech would be to change the stuff used to build T2 components back to the ratios it had with R64s. They're already widely distributed. Alchemy is already there as a pressure relief valve. Most importantly, they're already mapped. Tech stops being the bottleneck (or particularly valuable), and Valuable moons are found in varying concentrations all over EVE.



*figuratively


I wasn't actually advocating redistribution, just pointed out that the poster was in conflict with the head of his Corp/Alliance, by saying the concentration was fine.

I see the point that a lot of random change in moon distribution would be very disruptive, but clearly the status quo needs to change. I like the alchemy approach as a first step actually. It provides an additional tuning knob to allow adjustment (although hopefully this would be used with care, instead of just spinning the knobs and seeing what happens as I fear it might).

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Tarsus Zateki
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2012-07-27 23:06:02 UTC
Or you could, you know, just go get some tech moons of your own. Resource motivated conflict is a major cause of player driven content creation.

You asked me once, what was in Room 101. I told you that you knew the answer already. Everyone knows it. The thing that is in Room 101 is the worst thing in the world.
None ofthe Above
#120 - 2012-07-27 23:09:27 UTC
Tarsus Zateki wrote:
Because I'm not allowed to have my own opinion and must do whatever some arrogant internet spaceships big shot tells me am I right? The Mittani can say whatever he likes, I'll say what I like.

I believe we deserve all the tech in the game because we are outright better people than the rest of you. We have the numbers and organization and wealth to take whatever we want, when we want and you can't stop us. If that's a problem for you, do something about it in game, just like we have. Stop whining to the developers because the rest of the game is a room full of jealous kittens all squabbling over their own selfish wants.

What would happen if CCP redistributed tech? Whatever worthless pubbie alliance ends up with a few moons would suddenly find the most organized and efficient military force this game has ever seen showing up on their doorstep. They would chest beat for a few days like they always do. Then they would fall to pieces as each member of the alliance jumps ship to save themselves. As happens every single time we burn a region to the ground. The pubbie is incapable of teaming up effectively. The pubbie is unable to look past his own interests. The pubbie runs away after making sure his "friends" run slower than he does.


Thanks for making me laugh.

I really can't even begin to respond. The levels of irony and sperge are too deep to even start to get into. I guess I'll have to admit that you are your own best counterargument and simply applaud the performance.

Bravo sir.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.