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Vargur Or Macharial?

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Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-10-11 00:38:07 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Hrmmm... eyeballing some spreadsheet graphs shows that a T1 ammo Mach needs to be roughly 11km closer to the target in order to match a RF ammo Vargur. Once you're inside of 20km, the RF Vargur tops the T1 Mach.

Roughly speaking, a RF ammo Mach has around a 3-5% DPS advantage over an RF ammo Vargur at the same range. If the RF Mach is 11km closer, then it does around 15% more DPS than the RF Vargur. At 10km, the advantage drops to 9%.


Theory-wise, an AB Mach with T1 ammo probably isn't going to be able to create the 11+ km range advantage to out DPS the RF Vargur, especially if the Vargur also has an AB. However a MWD Mach with RF ammo should be able to produce an 11km range advantage and thus should see a nice DPS bump over the RF Vargur. However, I would be concerned that with fast moving Angel NPCs that close the distance quickly, the RF Mach's MWD produced range advantage might not be terribly significant in the long run. OTOH, against spread out spawns or NPCs that orbit at long ranges, the MWD Mach could see an improvement in mission completion speeds.


Are you giving them both similar fits because those numbers sound wrong. I'm seeing 863 at 8.5+104 for the Mach vs. 789 at 7.8+89 for the Varg with barrage. (Pure gun DPS, no implants or drones.) Maybe the Varg should have one less gyro and one more TE?

Quote:
i'm quite interested in this. i've been thinking that if the completion times are within a few % of each other then surely the ability to loot on the go puts the vargur ahead of the mach in terms of isk/hr?


Only if you're killing within 40km, but probably, also if you don't need to move to the next gate. Though both are pretty fast for Battleships.
stoicfaux
#22 - 2011-10-11 03:18:09 UTC
Mavnas wrote:

Are you giving them both similar fits because those numbers sound wrong. I'm seeing 863 at 8.5+104 for the Mach vs. 789 at 7.8+89 for the Varg with barrage. (Pure gun DPS, no implants or drones.) Maybe the Varg should have one less gyro and one more TE?


Vargur: 4x RF Gyro, TE II, 2x TC II w/Optimal scripts, RoF II rig, Falloff I rig. 1026 raw DPS. 4.2+72km falloff.
Mach: 4x RF Gyro, 3x TE II, Falloff II + Falloff I rigs, 1055 raw DPS with RF ammo, 918 with T1 ammo. 4.2+74km falloff.
However, I might have normalized them both at 74km, I forget.

As for barrage, I'm not really sold on barrage if you're using RF ammo. With T1 ammo, the cutoff for barrage is around 30km. With RF ammo, the cutoff is 45-50km. Not really worth the time to swap ammo, especially if there are frigates to pop while waiting for the NPCs to close the range.


Quote:

Only if you're killing within 40km, but probably, also if you don't need to move to the next gate. Though both are pretty fast for Battleships.


Speaking of fast, it looks like you can fit an MWD on a Vargur if you use a Pith medium shield booster and a 3% PG implant. Gives you a burst speed of 1138 m/s, but with a 17.7s align time. Not quite a MWD Mach with a 1500 m/s speed and 11.9s align time. 1026 raw DPS with 4.2+74km falloff versus 1055 DPS and 4.2+74km for the Mach.

[Vargur, Level 4 - Lazy Mach]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Salvager II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
#23 - 2011-10-11 03:22:47 UTC
I've got a MSB vargur but the difference really is minimal to the point that you might as well pick the one you think is nicer to look at.

♥ Haviing your portrait painted here helps INTAKI Disabled Children ♥
Goose99
#24 - 2011-10-11 03:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
stoicfaux wrote:
Mavnas wrote:

Are you giving them both similar fits because those numbers sound wrong. I'm seeing 863 at 8.5+104 for the Mach vs. 789 at 7.8+89 for the Varg with barrage. (Pure gun DPS, no implants or drones.) Maybe the Varg should have one less gyro and one more TE?


Vargur: 4x RF Gyro, TE II, 2x TC II w/Optimal scripts, RoF II rig, Falloff I rig. 1026 raw DPS. 4.2+72km falloff.
Mach: 4x RF Gyro, 3x TE II, Falloff II + Falloff I rigs, 1055 raw DPS with RF ammo, 918 with T1 ammo. 4.2+74km falloff.
However, I might have normalized them both at 74km, I forget.

As for barrage, I'm not really sold on barrage if you're using RF ammo. With T1 ammo, the cutoff for barrage is around 30km. With RF ammo, the cutoff is 45-50km. Not really worth the time to swap ammo, especially if there are frigates to pop while waiting for the NPCs to close the range.


Quote:

Only if you're killing within 40km, but probably, also if you don't need to move to the next gate. Though both are pretty fast for Battleships.


Speaking of fast, it looks like you can fit an MWD on a Vargur if you use a Pith medium shield booster and a 3% PG implant. Gives you a burst speed of 1138 m/s, but with a 17.7s align time. Not quite a MWD Mach with a 1500 m/s speed and 11.9s align time. 1026 raw DPS with 4.2+74km falloff versus 1055 DPS and 4.2+74km for the Mach.

[Vargur, Level 4 - Lazy Mach]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II
Salvager II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Projectile Ambit Extension I


Here's your problem:
You're giving Vargur t2 burst aerator rig that still has effect when stacked with 4 faction gyros, but give Mach 2 range rigs that's stacked to uselessness, not that they were ever useful to begin with. It's obvious you're just trying to EFT warrioring the dps gap between Mach and Vargur to look less than it is. After using 4 of Vargur's limited lows for gyros, you ate 2 mids for TCs to make up for 2 TEs, and ended up with 3 slot shield tank, with a 2 bil booster to make up for it. A cookie cutter Mach with 4 gyros and 3 TEs would still have 5 mids available. Yes, extra slot that faction/pirate BS have over t1/t2 matters.

Vargur for tank, Mach for gank. Stop trying to squeeze every insignificant bit of paper dps out of Vargur and fail fitting it in the process just for some kind of competition with Mach. A cookie cutter Vargur with CCCs, 3 gyros, 2 tes and a tc can be easily fit to tank and run missions normally without bils of gimmeck ds booster, and still have more than enough dps to do well.
Songbird
#25 - 2011-10-11 03:47:12 UTC
In my area of space faction projectile ammo is not readily available so I fly both ships with t1 ammo. Obviously the mach has the DPS advantage then .

My mach fit is cap stable with gist large booster and 2 invulns. If I use the MWD cap stability goes away but when moving with 1500 m/s you need much less tank. Obviously there's the added advantage of carrying 4 sentry drones

The vargur OTOH has a tracking bonus which in theory should let you hit better.

TBH though once you fly mach every other ships feels too slow and too boring.

Think of the mach as a sports car and think of the vargur as a SUV.
stoicfaux
#26 - 2011-10-11 04:58:05 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

Here's your problem:
You're giving Vargur t2 burst aerator rig that still has effect when stacked with 4 faction gyros, but give Mach 2 range rigs that's stacked to uselessness, not that they were ever useful to begin with. It's obvious you're just trying to EFT warrioring the dps gap between Mach and Vargur to look less than it is.


Uhm... removing the "stacked to uselessness" range rigs on the Mach makes the Vargur more competitive with the Mach.

Quote:
After using 4 of Vargur's limited lows for gyros, you ate 2 mids for TCs to make up for 2 TEs, and ended up with 3 slot shield tank, with a 2 bil booster to make up for it. A cookie cutter Mach with 4 gyros and 3 TEs would still have 5 mids available. Yes, extra slot that faction/pirate BS have over t1/t2 matters.


I mission with 4 Gyros, 2 TC IIs, a TE II, and RoF II rig. In fact, I need to drop my CCC rig for a Falloff rig since I no longer use a LSB.

Quote:
Vargur for tank, Mach for gank. Stop trying to squeeze every insignificant bit of paper dps out of Vargur and fail fitting it in the process just for some kind of competition with Mach. A cookie cutter Vargur with CCCs, 3 gyros, 2 tes and a tc can be easily fit to tank and run missions normally without bils of gimmeck ds booster, and still have more than enough dps to do well.


Gank is tank. My Vargur has a 4 slot tank based on the Pithum C MSB (pithum C, 2x hardeners, and an SBA II.) Since a Pithum A provides 40% more boost than a Pithum C, I would actually gain tank by upgrading to the Pithum A and using an MWD in place of the SBA II. If my current Pithum C fit has plenty of tank/gank, then the Pithum A/MWD fit I posted would do just as well but with the benefit of having an MWD (and with a billion isk less in my wallet.)

There is no problem and this isn't EFT fantasy land. If I can run level 4s based on a 4 slot Pithum C tank, then I can run a 3 slot Pithum A tank just as well.

As for insignificant DPS, I use a Gyro II instead of a 4th RF Gyro for a 7 DPS loss.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-10-11 06:45:08 UTC
If you were to drop the fall-off rigs on the Mach and replace them with a Burst Aerator, that would make the numbers better for the Mach. Also, if you're going to use a super expensive faction booster, why not give the Mach a three slot tank too and squeeze an extra TC on there. Not like the tank is going to matter in PvE with these kinds of DPS numbers.

If you're using your guns to pop frigs, the Mach wins that with the RoF bonus, but really you should be using your drones for that thing.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#28 - 2011-10-11 13:37:00 UTC
This thread is full of excellent advice and really a shining example for the awesome community!

I would like to add that even though I have never flown a Mach I was quite happy with the Vargur. I had an AB on it and in the low slots 3 Gyrostabilizers and 2 Tracking Enhancers. I liked the TE because they give not only better tracking but also a considerably bigger falloff. Because of the stacking penalty, I considered a 4th Gyrostab inferior to a second TE - but I haven't calculated it exactly. I was so happy with the performance of my Vargur, that I didn't change the setup any more.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Aamrr
#29 - 2011-10-11 13:39:53 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
If you were to drop the fall-off rigs on the Mach and replace them with a Burst Aerator, that would make the numbers better for the Mach. Also, if you're going to use a super expensive faction booster, why not give the Mach a three slot tank too and squeeze an extra TC on there. Not like the tank is going to matter in PvE with these kinds of DPS numbers.

If you're using your guns to pop frigs, the Mach wins that with the RoF bonus, but really you should be using your drones for that thing.


It's not really fair to allow the Machariel to use the same number of tanking modules as a Vargur. The Vargur gets a built-in shield boost amplifier and a bonus to its EM resist. The Machariel receives neither.
stoicfaux
#30 - 2011-10-11 14:00:24 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
If you were to drop the fall-off rigs on the Mach and replace them with a Burst Aerator, that would make the numbers better for the Mach. Also, if you're going to use a super expensive faction booster, why not give the Mach a three slot tank too and squeeze an extra TC on there. Not like the tank is going to matter in PvE with these kinds of DPS numbers.


Which gives you a 340 tank versus Angels, which might be a bit light. Has anyone tried it? By comparison, the Vargur gets a shield boosting ship bonus which essentially acts as a free Shield Boost Amp, aka a free tanking mid slot, bumping up your tank to 474 versus Angels.

Mach gun range is 4.4+75km and a raw dps of 975 with T1 ammo and 1122 with RF ammo versus the Vargur's 4.2+72km and 1026 raw DPS with RF ammo. (That's a 9% DPS advantage for the RF ammo Mach.)

Quote:
If you're using your guns to pop frigs, the Mach wins that with the RoF bonus, but really you should be using your drones for that thing.


Nope. Both ships get a 25% RoF bonus, so they both have a 2.96 cycle time on the guns. It's the Mach's 25% damage bonus and 7 guns that give it a bit more firepower than a Vargur.

As for drones, they kill too slowly. Plus at long range, you can still one or two shot frigates while waiting for the bigger ships to get closer to reduce DPS loss to falloff.


Anyway, the whole point of the MWD Vargur is to show that the Mach really needs to use RF ammo to out perform the Vargur.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Goose99
#31 - 2011-10-11 14:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Aamrr wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
If you were to drop the fall-off rigs on the Mach and replace them with a Burst Aerator, that would make the numbers better for the Mach. Also, if you're going to use a super expensive faction booster, why not give the Mach a three slot tank too and squeeze an extra TC on there. Not like the tank is going to matter in PvE with these kinds of DPS numbers.

If you're using your guns to pop frigs, the Mach wins that with the RoF bonus, but really you should be using your drones for that thing.


It's not really fair to allow the Machariel to use the same number of tanking modules as a Vargur. The Vargur gets a built-in shield boost amplifier and a bonus to its EM resist. The Machariel receives neither.


He had a 3 slot tank on that Vargur, and 2 bil booster to make up for it. A Mach would still have 5 mids left after 4 gyros and 3 TEs. Vargur receives a bonus to shield boost amount, based on Marauder skill (not BS), and has fewer slot. So you're right, Mach can have more tanking slots than Vargur and still have same number of gank slots, because it has more total slots.

Mach doesn't need an extra TC, it already has 3 TEs plus 4 gyros. Stacking one more TC hardly gives any real benefit. Not having to use a 2 bil booster, on the other hand... Enough of this 3 slot tank with a 2 bil booster nonsense. Give both real tank with more than 3 slots and less EFT warrioring.

Cookie cutter Mach with no falloff rig gets 70km falloff, compared to 74km with 2 falloff rigs, and 72 with one. Same goes for Vargur (but of course, he got T2 dmg rig for paper dps). It's stacked to insignificance. CCCs for both Mach and Vargur.

As an additional note, Mach has a base sig of 330 and scan resolution of 150, Vargur has sig of 420 and scan resolution of 85. It's not usually noticeable by EFT warriors, but matters in game. Rats hit badly. If you fly both like I do, you'll immediately feel that Vargur takes significantly more damage, too much to be just attributed to speed difference. Locking speed is also noticeably slower. Of course, true speed/sig tanking, as in Tengu/Ishtar, feels like something else entirely.

tl;dr: Mach for gank, Vargur for tank. Use more than 3 slots for tank, or 2 bil booster to turn your Vargur into gank magnet.

CCP Phantom wrote:
This thread is full of excellent advice and really a shining example for the awesome community!

I would like to add that even though I have never flown a Mach I was quite happy with the Vargur. I had an AB on it and in the low slots 3 Gyrostabilizers and 2 Tracking Enhancers. I liked the TE because they give not only better tracking but also a considerably bigger falloff. Because of the stacking penalty, I considered a 4th Gyrostab inferior to a second TE - but I haven't calculated it exactly. I was so happy with the performance of my Vargur, that I didn't change the setup any more.


^This is how a non EFT warrioring Vargur is fit. Although perhaps including a TC for 3rd range mod. Comfortable tank, very decent dps and range.
stoicfaux
#32 - 2011-10-11 16:08:36 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

He had a 3 slot tank on that Vargur, and 2 bil booster to make up for it. A Mach would still have 5 mids left after 4 gyros and 3 TEs. Vargur receives a bonus to shield boost amount, based on Marauder skill (not BS), and has fewer slot. So you're right, Mach can have more tanking slots than Vargur and still have same number of gank slots, because it has more total slots.

Mach doesn't need an extra TC, it already has 3 TEs plus 4 gyros. Stacking one more TC hardly gives any real benefit. Not having to use a 2 bil booster, on the other hand... Enough of this 3 slot tank with a 2 bil booster nonsense. Give both real tank with more than 3 slots and less EFT warrioring.

First, a Pithum A-Type MSB goes for 1.2 billion isk, not 2 billion isk.

Secondly, you're miscounting slots.
Mach:
* 5 mids: 4 for tank, 1 for propulsion
* 7 lows: 3 TEs, 4 Gyros
Vargur:
* 7 mids: (6 mids + 1 built-in SBA), 3+1 = 4 for tank, 1 for propulsion, 2 for TCs
* 5 lows: 1 TE, 4 Gyros
So that's 4 gank slots, 3 tracking slots, and 4 tank slots for each. The Mach and Vargur effectively have the same number of gank/tank slots.

Third, regarding your "stacking one more TC hardly gives any benefit" for the Mach comment:
3 TEs = 4.2+69km falloff.
3 TEs + TC w/optimal script = 4.4+77km falloff.
Are you saying that an additional 8km falloff provides no signficant benefit?



Quote:
(but of course, he got T2 dmg rig for paper dps). It's stacked to insignificance. CCCs for both Mach and Vargur.

The T2 rof provides a 6% damage boost. If you understood how stacking penalties worked, you would understand that T2 RoF (and T2 Damage) rigs don't get stacking penalized. T1 RoF and Damage rigs, on the other hand, get hit with the fifth attribute of the same type stacking penalty and are useless.

Three CCCs is an amateur move. If you're that worried about cap, then fit a Cap Booster and use the rigs for additional gank or to improve your shield resists.

Quote:
^This is how a non EFT warrioring Vargur is fit. Although perhaps including a TC for 3rd range mod. Comfortable tank, very decent dps and range.

"Comfortable tank"? If a comfortable tank is important to you, that's fine. However, don't run around telling people how to fit mission ships until you understand that 'gank is tank' and that you can manage triggers in order to run with a max gank setup and a bare minimum of tank.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Orlacc
#33 - 2011-10-11 19:05:22 UTC
stoicfaux
#34 - 2011-10-11 20:13:39 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:

Quote:
^This is how a non EFT warrioring Vargur is fit. Although perhaps including a TC for 3rd range mod. Comfortable tank, very decent dps and range.

"Comfortable tank"? If a comfortable tank is important to you, that's fine. However, don't run around telling people how to fit mission ships until you understand that 'gank is tank' and that you can manage triggers in order to run with a max gank setup and a bare minimum of tank.


For the "comfortable tank" crowd, we can replace the Ambit falloff rig for a power grid rig, which allows the Vargur to mount an XL booster. That reduces falloff to 69km from 72km, but then the whole point of the MWD is to rapidly close the distance to quickly reduce DPS loss to falloff.

Assuming the 69km falloff MWD Vargur can quickly reduce the range by 10km over the non-MWD 72km falloff Vargur, we get a 7% to 10% DPS increase over the non MWD Vargur.

By comparsion, if an AB Vargur can knock 4km off, we get a 1% to 3% DPS boost.

An MWD versus AB for a 6km net reduction should produce around 2% to 6% DPS increase.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-10-12 04:50:28 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Mavnas wrote:
If you were to drop the fall-off rigs on the Mach and replace them with a Burst Aerator, that would make the numbers better for the Mach. Also, if you're going to use a super expensive faction booster, why not give the Mach a three slot tank too and squeeze an extra TC on there. Not like the tank is going to matter in PvE with these kinds of DPS numbers.

If you're using your guns to pop frigs, the Mach wins that with the RoF bonus, but really you should be using your drones for that thing.


It's not really fair to allow the Machariel to use the same number of tanking modules as a Vargur. The Vargur gets a built-in shield boost amplifier and a bonus to its EM resist. The Machariel receives neither.


This only matters if you need the extra tank. Chances are you don't. That's the whole point of the massive falloff. That's also why my fail fit apoc can essentially consist of nothing but guns and a weak tank.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#36 - 2011-10-12 12:37:01 UTC
Yeah was reading this thread and saw some argueing over somthing I just realized. The tracking computer or tracking enhancer does meant there is a equalizier between mid and low slots. If have alot of mid slots then tracking compls/mag stabs. If more low slots that mean TE/mag stabs.

I know tracking comps are more work in a way though, Not as nice as slapping on a decent passive mod and recieve benefits. only hiccup to it all I think.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Doddy
Excidium.
#37 - 2011-10-12 14:34:17 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Maxwell Thomas wrote:
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Get a Dominix. You can get over 900 DPS out of one, PVE-fit to tank over 1000 DPS against Guristas. You also save a lot of money.



LOL I'm not interested in saving money. I like pimp mission ships to make iskies to fuel my PvP.

This statement doesn't even make sense. If your goal is "to make iskies to fuel my PVP," then you should be concerned with ISK-per-Hour, and with Opportunity Cost in order to maximize your efficiency. Even if one of your "pimp mission ships" were faster at making ISK than the Dominix (which they are not), you would need to consider how long it would take that hypothetically greater ISK-acquisition rate to overcome the sunk cost of the hull and fittings. But whatever, it's your money spend it however you want. I was just trying to be helpful.


Unless he loses the ship you are wrong, as at any point he can get his isk back. Unless he loses the ship any improvement to the rate he makes isk is raw profit. The only real way he would be better off where the ship doesn't die would be if he had another way to make isk from the isk (i.e. trade) that would make profit faster than the more profitable ship. 10 mil an hour profit off a 1 bil investment would probably be around the mark.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#38 - 2011-10-12 17:32:30 UTC
Was also reading the dev post, where DPS and range was discussed, Made me think of blasters. Seems like I wanted to make blasters longer, but weaker dps, and end up with minmitar guns, but I dont think its achievable. Uhm Sorry I really liked the way the dev kind of put that together and blasters are making me ********.

Seemed those minmitar guns have a nice dps and range, and was hoping to get that kind of feeling with blasters. But the blasters range and dps ratios seemed hard for me to deal with.

Would I be able to put 3 TE on a blaster boat, with one megastab, and get decent dps with its range? Hoping the native big blaster DPS lets me extend its range and still be worthwhile. Course can say I am lazy and should EFT myself.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#39 - 2011-10-12 20:19:22 UTC
With all 5's and t1 guns (scouts) the Machariel hits 1284 DPS, mine personally 1104.

4.2 + 69.1 gun range, 36+12 drone range.

To me, the "never having to switch ammo during a mission" factor is the deal clincher. It costs more money but I have to work less.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Marangwe
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2011-10-12 22:59:26 UTC
Does anyone ever fly a Vargur in PVP? I know its an EXPENSIVE PVP ship... but I was just wondering if anyone had any good tales to share? Same with the macharial.
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