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infinitely vulnerable?
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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#21 - 2012-07-27 13:40:12 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

But for specificity; fights are up 'tis (or was) true but quality of said fights are down, kills may be up (haven't seen supporting numbers) but if so then I am willing to wager they are little more than ganks for the most part.
In short: Murder does not make one a warrior.
Quality of fights are up too. Sorry to disappoint. +1 CCP
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#22 - 2012-07-27 13:55:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Amymuffmuff wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Rigel Vex wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I would like to see some statistics on this. There was a big uptick in pvp in plexes for about the first 2weeks after inferno and the first 6 weeks after. But in my albeit limited experience the last 2 weeks have been really dry. At least in the amarr minmatar front.


Take a look at the kill-boards maybe?

Cal / Gal are at it 24/7. We're PVPing like freaking rabbits over here!



No real comprehensive way to follow this with killboards that I know of. Eve kill gives alliance info. The minmatar tend to have larger alliances than the amarr so I checked Iron oxide :

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=7269

and late night:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=7227

The results seem to substantiate my impression. I am not aware that these alliances have had any large increases or decreases in population. (But I could be wrong there)


Yay were all important and stuffs.

You're right about there being a wide range of alliances in minmatar militia but that doesn't mean they are necessarily much bigger. We have quite a few alliances who are around but not so many in those alliance who actually take part in PVP. Though im not going to name names here *cough cough*..


I chose your two alliances because they are in allot of pvp that I am and seemed pretty stable. Some of the later alliances weren't here before inferno or may have been growing quite a bit.

Amymuffmuff wrote:

You're also right about the fact we haven't lost much in numbers wise is just usual inactivity. ...

i am looking forward to the time where the war picks up again anyway. bring on the pew pew!

.


Its just that xgallentius and others kept saying "more pvp than ever" without any real stats on that and it is counter to my own personal experience by a long shot. Like I said perhaps in the gallente caldari front its better than ever but for the amarr minmatar front the pvp is practically at pre inferno levels. Plus it seems much more isolated to 1 jump from kourm than it ever was before.

I'm not tryign to jab at ccp I am just trying to look at some objective numbers before making claims beyond my personal experience.

Anyway back to this topic I don't think amarr would ever be able to get back into the game if they couldn't let systems remain vulnerable. The gunnless frigates would just continue to farm the systems as soon as they flip.

Hopefully amarr will hold until we can hit tier 5. Then we can fight off the minmatar offensive plexers for as long as possible before you get to tier 5. We should then all be able to fund our pvp through plexing and pvp. So on this particual topic I agree +1 to ccp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#23 - 2012-07-27 14:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
For one, my corporation has more kills than it ever has in any month ever. My former corporation too (who are about to pass TLF for No. 2 all time in FW kills, congrats!). In fact, FW kills have been up overall by quite a large margin. It used to be that 70+ FW final blow kills / week was great for a corporation. Now some corporations are hitting 250 kills per week.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-07-27 14:11:28 UTC
I do not like this infinite vulnerability. We went out to plex down a system (about 20 d-plexes) in one system and still could not break it. Went to bed and logged on a cloaky alt to sit in system while I was at work just to watch the same minni farmer just keep plexing.

I think a max limit needs to be set before o-plexing yields nothing. Plexes obviously still need to spawn but the rewards need to stop after a certain point.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#25 - 2012-07-27 14:20:52 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
For one, my corporation has more kills than it ever has in any month ever. My former corporation too (who are about to pass TLF for No. 2 all time in FW kills, congrats!). In fact, FW kills have been up overall by quite a large margin. It used to be that 70+ FW final blow kills / week was great for a corporation. Now some corporations are hitting 250 kills per week.



Your corp seems not to have existed before July. And you are using them as an example of how the pvp is more now than ever. Do you see why you often appear to be a cheerleader?

Your old corp is doing well. Have they had many new members? The reason I ask is because, if we ignore the raw numbers added then we would be lead to believe high sec is better for pvp than low sec.

I think going by how many final blows per corp is more of an indicator of which corps are growing as opposed to how much pvp each individual pilot can expect. But if the corp has not been growing and the numbers increase that is pretty good indicator.

What would be best is if we could see what the kills per pilot numbers look like in the overall militias.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Sa'ra Krat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-07-27 14:44:20 UTC
Along a similar thread - though not necessarily 'infinite vulnerability' - is the fact that Factional Warfare is entirely LP driven. This wouldn't be so bad if Defensive plexing actually gave LP, but it doesn't, and therefore it makes little sense to not let the enemy flip territory or keep it in infinite vulnerability until the consensus was reached to hit high control tiers and cash in.

That doesn't seem like it is in the spirit of factual warfare.

True, people are hired to fight and fight they do for the LP. But at the same time, Inferno hasn't caused much of an inferno at all...Caldari and Gallente may be 'PvPing like bunnies' but at the same time, take a run around a few systems and Caldari has systems in Infinite Vulnerability. In fact, most of the systems are that way, and that doesn't spur fighting, just the continued plexing in ships that can deal with the NPCs.

Mostly, as far as my less-experienced eyes can see, short of a maths and Control Tier rework, what would likely bring about a bit more fighting (or draw a lot of people away from FW and into Incursions and nullsec) would be to make Defensive plexing actually worth something.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#27 - 2012-07-27 14:55:24 UTC
Sa'ra Krat wrote:
Along a similar thread - though not necessarily 'infinite vulnerability' - is the fact that Factional Warfare is entirely LP driven. This wouldn't be so bad if Defensive plexing actually gave LP, but it doesn't, and therefore it makes little sense to not let the enemy flip territory or keep it in infinite vulnerability until the consensus was reached to hit high control tiers and cash in..


And once they cash in then the other side can start offensive plexing until they can hit tier 5. The side that just cashed in would be best served by trying to prevent them from capturing those plexes by actually fighting them in the plexes because if they don't they will either lose sov or have to run defensive plexes for no gain.

IMO this is exactly in the spirit of faction war.
Sa'ra Krat wrote:

True, people are hired to fight and fight they do for the LP. But at the same time, Inferno hasn't caused much of an inferno at all...Caldari and Gallente may be 'PvPing like bunnies' but at the same time, take a run around a few systems and Caldari has systems in Infinite Vulnerability. In fact, most of the systems are that way, and that doesn't spur fighting, just the continued plexing in ships that can deal with the NPCs.

Mostly, as far as my less-experienced eyes can see, short of a maths and Control Tier rework, what would likely bring about a bit more fighting (or draw a lot of people away from FW and into Incursions and nullsec) would be to make Defensive plexing actually worth something.


Giving lp for defensive plexing is a horrible idea and ccp did well in designing the game so it doesn't give direct rewards to potential d-plex farmers. Giving d-plexing rewards, will among other bad things, reward people for not defending their plexes in pvp. After all having someone run an o-plex will allow them to gain lp by running a d-plex after the enemy leaves.

If you want to "defend" your system go out and actually fight those running the offensive plexes.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#28 - 2012-07-27 15:17:25 UTC
Qcats have lost a good 10-15% of our most active pilots last month and we are maintaining the same level of pvp we have seen since inferno hit.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=26892

So at least the gal/caldari warzone is still very active. However I do see a trend where that first month after inferno...everything we were killing were war targets. I am now starting to see many more neutrals/pies kms. Ofc thats probably more because of all the butthurt that we joined minnie...being barred from certain fleets and such.


Cearain wrote:

No real comprehensive way to follow this with killboards that I know of. Eve kill gives alliance info. The minmatar tend to have larger alliances than the amarr so I checked Iron oxide :

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=7269

and late night:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=7227

The results seem to substantiate my impression. I am not aware that these alliances have had any large increases or decreases in population. (But I could be wrong there)

nom nom
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#29 - 2012-07-27 15:22:25 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:


Either make a Vulnerable system no longer plex-able (or no LP rewards) or make the Vulnerable state deteriorate after XX amount of time.



Waaahh. Don't make us defend the conquests we have been boasting about the last few. Waahh.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#30 - 2012-07-27 15:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:
stuff....
You are easy to troll Cearain. Also, QCATS size is half of what it used to be, and they're still getting more kills than before the patch.

All I can tell you is that I look at the api stats regularly and the number of FW final blows is up compared to before the patch. It's quieted down a little since the patch either due to summer or the fact that it is no longer "new", but it's still much higher than before the patch. I think everybody on my front (Caldaris, Gallente, Mewmatar) would agree with me that fighting is still going very strong.

The militia killboards on your side have definitely fallen off this month - perhaps because the Amarr are failcascading or perhaps because of summer. (Number of kills are no worse than before the patch though.) We'll see what happens.

Perhaps you should move yourself or your corp to our space if you're looking for more pew?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#31 - 2012-07-27 15:50:50 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
stuff....
You are easy to troll Cearain. Also, QCATS size is half of what it used to be, and they're still getting more kills than before the patch.

All I can tell you is that I look at the api stats regularly and the number of FW final blows is up compared to before the patch. It's quieted down a little since the patch either due to summer or the fact that it is no longer "new", but it's still much higher than before the patch. I think everybody on my front (Caldaris, Gallente, Mewmatar) would agree with me that fighting is still going very strong.

The militia killboards on your side have definitely fallen off this month - perhaps because the Amarr are failcascading or perhaps because of summer. (Number of kills are no worse than before the patch though.) We'll see what happens.

Perhaps you should move yourself or your corp to our space if you're looking for more pew?



Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-07-27 15:55:05 UTC
so, people complain when FW sucked so bad nobody did it. CCP then beefed up the rewards which caused tons of new players to flock to FW, PVP is at an all time high and people still complain
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#33 - 2012-07-27 16:00:26 UTC
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Bro, the Minmatar use Falcons just as much as we do. You've got team Nemski/Hate who stay permacloaked in Kam in nothing but Falcons throughout most of the day, and you guys even dropped a neutral Falcon alt on us earlier today. As far as the neut logi goes, even though we've dropped it on the field a few times we've only had to actually rep with it a handful of times. It lets us fight when we're outnumbered and even in the cases where we have numbers, it lets us drop a counter that isn't an obvious hard counter to whatever fleet the other guys that might have.

Cmon Vordak, you're better than that to be complaining that the use of game mechanics that are available for everyone to use and get dragged into the "they don't want fights, they just want ganks" arguement. We fight your always Loki boosted gangs without links of our own more often than not, which tends to result in a less than favorable result, but we don't complain about it because its just part of the game.

You guys fly loki-boosted nano-kitey stuff that excels at killing as much as it can and then running away before anyone can kill it, so I could also argue that you guys don't want fights either, but I don't because its all apart of EVE. Its really hard to pin down without Falcons to jam out anti-tackle or logi to keep your tackle/bait alive and i'll be one of the first people to say that you guys understand fly that style of gang very well. Just keep in mind our tactics are a response to the tactics that you guys use as well and we're not dumb enough to split our gang up and burn after your nano gang without an ace up our sleeve, flying against you guys for a month is enough to know you guys know what you're doing. If you wanted to do more than kill bads being bad and idiots, you wouldn't bring Cynabal/Tornado/Vaga gangs.


TBH, Late Night Alliance are the type of people who would much rather jump in random brawl BCs and charge into a fight and go down swinging. Your tactics are forcing us to adapt away from that style, which is fine: it is what it is. However, if you ever decided to put away the neutlogi and multi-ECM boats, you'd get some awesome brawl fights where everyone wins and has a good time, instead of one side getting force-multiplied to **** and having no fun, or one side popping a few tackle that run out to them. Li Nemski/Hate is a special person that basically only flys Falcons, and I don't particularly like that very much, but he is pretty hilarious on comms, especially once he hits around 30 tequila shots in. :P He isn't even in LNA though.

However, I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining about your tactics, simply that if you ever chose to stop using that kind of force-multiplication, we'd give you solid fights instead of dancing around with nanofag stuff or gayCM of our own. You also have to consider, at maximum, we have MAYBE 10 dudes online at night recently. It's really hard to fight larger #s AND ECM/Logi with out resorting to nanofag stuff. vOv

/pointlessrambling

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#34 - 2012-07-27 16:01:57 UTC
Yeah I took a stroll to your front last night and was quite surprised by the number of vulnerable systems and also by the lack of anything flying around but farmers :(

Nulli had about a 100 people in their area, Im hoping they run less when they actually get into FW. My merlin is scary but its not THAT scary :p

Cearain wrote:

Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.

nom nom
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#35 - 2012-07-27 16:03:48 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
so, people complain when FW sucked so bad nobody did it. CCP then beefed up the rewards which caused tons of new players to flock to FW, PVP is at an all time high and people still complain


Not complaining just looking at the actual numbers and seeing it is not at an all time high. At least the amarr minmatar front. July has dropped considerably from may and june numbers. Most of may was pre inferno.

It does appear that the caldari and gallente front is going strong for pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#36 - 2012-07-27 16:15:37 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Yeah I took a stroll to your front last night and was quite surprised by the number of vulnerable systems and also by the lack of anything flying around but farmers :(

Nulli had about a 100 people in their area, Im hoping they run less when they actually get into FW. My merlin is scary but its not THAT scary :p

Cearain wrote:

Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.




Is nulli in faction war now?

Amarr are locked out of pretty much all the systems except like 3. So 1 jump from kourm is about the only place to find pvp here. And its not the great plexing pvp you are likely looking for. Plexes in kourm and huola are almost as safe as docking. Most of the fighting is on gates.

Also I would point out that when amarr are in major plexes you don't really need to do more than tackle a bc and let the rats kill it. So It makes no sense to even try to run major plexes for amarr in a pvp ship. You will have to run anyway. So might as well use a gunless frigate.

The mediums are more manageable - but thats iffy too, and the minors are definitely doable.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#37 - 2012-07-27 17:22:14 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
so, people complain when FW sucked so bad nobody did it. CCP then beefed up the rewards which caused tons of new players to flock to FW, PVP is at an all time high and people still complain
It's what they do best.

If you want lots of small scale pvp, then come to FW.

If you also want to get paid to pvp, then FW is also for you.

If you want to constantly cry about farmers making too much isk, or broken occupancy mechanics, then there's a spot for you in FW as well. Big smile
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#38 - 2012-07-27 17:35:22 UTC
Cearain wrote:



Amarr are not failcascading at all. We are holding our own when we do get pvp, and we are doing better than ever on the plexing front. If everything goes well we should be hitting tier five.

I am just saying it seems like the amount of pvp in our zone is getting close to the pre-inferno days. The actual data seems to reflect that.

Perhaps the newness is wearing off, and perhaps the inability to dock anywhere in the warzone is showing its true colors as a pvp inhibitor. Anyway I am just trying to get some facts.

If your old corp is really at half numbers they had in may and june then indeed they are getting more pvp than ever before.


First off - I think things are still far better than pre-inferno pvp wise. However, pvp is definitely scaling down this last week or so in the gallente/caldari front - it used to be that you could fly around and there'd be small gangs dessies in plexes everywhere - now things seem to be dropping off to a few large caldari fleets rolling around, but very little solo action going around. Maybe that's because so many systems are vulnerable that there's very little reason to plex anywhere anymore.

I'm hoping that nulli start plexing away like mad - I'm waiting up there for them to be in fw to see if they'll do anything, and I have my JF sitting at the ready full of destroyers in case they do.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#39 - 2012-07-27 18:17:32 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
I do not like this infinite vulnerability. We went out to plex down a system (about 20 d-plexes) in one system and still could not break it. Went to bed and logged on a cloaky alt to sit in system while I was at work just to watch the same minni farmer just keep plexing.

I think a max limit needs to be set before o-plexing yields nothing. Plexes obviously still need to spawn but the rewards need to stop after a certain point.
Admit it. It sucks to have alt farmers screw with your space, doesn't it? Actually, I should just say "Suck it up, undock and defend your space, noob" like you guys did when this expansion hit in May.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-07-27 18:41:48 UTC
Well, as was suggested before they went live with this, if they made a system vuln at say 50%, then they could award LP for offensive plexing during that time, and hopefully it would do away with lots of farmers. And make it so you have to kill all rats in a plex to get LP. Sheesh. I mean, they do that trigger with missions and DED complexes already. I just don't get why they have allowed this to continue for so long...

That being said, even though I have been on a break there is a definite increase in fighting since the patch. +1

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!