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New dev blog: Tech is fine l2p

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Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#821 - 2012-07-27 10:01:53 UTC
Chanina wrote:


Don't forget the point where players cry around because a relative small group of titans could counter a 2k+ fleet ...
wait, who wanted that? never mind.

you want conflict drivers, i like them too and hopefully there is something in the pipelines but ring mining is behind pos revamp so we have to wait for that one. Bringing a bit more balance in income of 0.0 groups is good. the more money the people have the more they want to blow stuff up and don't worry about loosing something.

RvB shows that pretty well. If your enemies have more ships to fight you, you don't have to hang around to shoot structures. Much more fun to shoot spaceships than i-hubs.


It's not like I'm a fan of idiot-proofed titan guns or the Dominon sov system either, fwiw.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#822 - 2012-07-27 10:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Chanina wrote:
Don't forget the point where players cry around because a relative small group of titans could counter a 2k+ fleet ...
wait, who wanted that? never mind.


We also tested different counters to "small groups of titans." It was simple - any of those counters was either overhyped, ridiculously unrealistic in actual TQ conditions or absolutely useless. There's also something that screams "imbalance" when a group of 15 multiboxers can decide literally every engagement anywhere outside of hisec. Comparing blap titans to paper-thin destroyers ganking AFK Hulks is simply dumb. The Catalyst is not ewar-immune, it does not have several million EHP, it is easily defeated with a tank or ECM drones, and it is easily removed from the picture by a cheap battlecruiser.

Blue Ice miners figured out ways of countering suicide ganks that used Brutixes which were much more resilient and dealt much more damage. Why can't miners do that only 6 months later?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#823 - 2012-07-27 10:59:42 UTC
Hammer Legion Member wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
No other group in eve has the organizational skills that the CFC has


hahaha....I wonder if you would have said the same about the NC or even GBC who also had this insane special skill of setting things blue.


Since it's so easy I'm sure you can quickly start up a huge coalition to counter the CFC. It's not as if it takes a pretty significant amount of diplomatic, social and leadership skills (no, not the skills you train for ganglinks or faction standings, actual personal skills) to form and run a coalition of several alliances that all abide by a common fleet doctrine for strategic ops.

The NC was nowhere near as organized as the CFC is. Even the GBC lacked that level of organization.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#824 - 2012-07-27 11:01:16 UTC
Thomas Kreshant wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
So what happened to the ring mining idea? I assumed groups were going o be able the head into null/low sec and mine moon materials from planet rings.

That would have added additional game play and a more interesting/profitable activity for the miners out there who are willing to risk their ships for a bigger reward.

One step forward, two steps back.


They said ring mining would be some time after they make the new POS system replacement, only one set of game designers so their focus is on the new POS system and as pretty much everyone who's ever played eve and used a POS wants them scrapped/overhauled etc that's the priority.


I agree with the POS overhaul but what's with this quick fix alchemy bullshit?

Tech has been this way for a while and i think we can put up with it a little longer if it means it will finally be balanced properly. I think ring mining is the real solution because the average Joe will be able to get their hands on Tech and people like OTEC will no longer have a monopoly over the market.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Bobo Cindekela
Doomheim
#825 - 2012-07-27 11:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobo Cindekela
corestwo wrote:
What our large breasted friend here is saying is that we're concerned that the tweaks to numbers are possibly being done based on bad long term assumptions - namely, high fuel prices (which will crater with the introduction of the barge changes), and speculatively high platinum and cobalt prices.



pretty sure both the alchem and the barge changes are being done to serve blueswarm a nice warm cup of shut the **** up.

you cant expect to push the envelope and brag the whole way and not get beat to **** with a nerf bat by/for/in behalf of the other 390k subs.

You are about to engage in an arguement with a forum alt,  this is your final warning.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#826 - 2012-07-27 11:34:29 UTC
So what you're saying is, we're in fact puppetmastering CCP into ruining their own game to spite us?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Bobo Cindekela
Doomheim
#827 - 2012-07-27 11:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobo Cindekela
i wouldnt say its ruined, i like afk mining while i watch spongebob

You are about to engage in an arguement with a forum alt,  this is your final warning.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#828 - 2012-07-27 11:50:38 UTC
Funnily enough, so too do botters, and you'll see this in various prices soon enough.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hammer Legion Member
Doomheim
#829 - 2012-07-27 11:53:34 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:

The NC was nowhere near as organized as the CFC is. Even the GBC lacked that level of organization.


haha not like you could speak out of personnal experience, can you? GBC and NC were basicly nothing different to the current CFC...Goons didnt invent the Coalition either.

Dont try to make a mystery of something you probably dont even understand. Its not like you need to cross any cultural bridges nor lead a massive army...OTEC is just purposely avoiding conflicts for financial benefits.. thats all.

@ Grath
I agree that there have been fights in the past over tech moons (mostly between current OTEC parties btw.) and you kinda deserved to milk them to some degree, but come on, thats almsot 2 years ago now, double-digit trillions is enough to play for a while.

The worst part of your moaning is, that nobody is taking your tech moons away...you are basicly just crying about the fact,that you cant exploit your monopoly position anymore since you wont be the only one provinding PlaTe .... nothing else is happening to you, you still get your fair price for your tech, but thats apparently not enough.

regards, HML
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#830 - 2012-07-27 11:56:26 UTC
Hammer Legion Member wrote:
at the end, valuable Moon Goo will always stay director-level income wich will only benefits a fairly small amount of players


no, it's not

alliances where the income stays at the top don't tend to last long

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#831 - 2012-07-27 13:16:59 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

The cost of Cobalt only becomes 0 ISK when the reaction is taking place in the POS where the cobalt is being harvested, at which point the cost of the Cobalt becomes the fuel cost of running the moon harvester.

Wrong.

The moon harvester seemlessly replaces the silo that would otherwise feed cobalt (exact same grid/cpu). There are so many cobalt moons that every alchemy tower will be on one. The opportunity cost is zero.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#832 - 2012-07-27 13:18:10 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

If Cobalt really is worth 0, why aren't you harvesting the other moon material that the moon offers instead?

you've never run a moon mining pos, have you

the vast majority of moons (overwhelming majority, really) have nothing that is profitable to mine+export
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#833 - 2012-07-27 13:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Mara Rinn wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
I took a moment to review the actual math behind plat tech alchemy, and I'm posting my findings below.

:siren: MATH TIME :siren:


Your assumptions are:

POS Fuel ~ 11k ISK
Cobalt ~ 0 ISK
Platinum ~ 4k ISK

But you left out, "nothing more profitable to do with that POS."

The cost of Cobalt only becomes 0 ISK when the reaction is taking place in the POS where the cobalt is being harvested, at which point the cost of the Cobalt becomes the fuel cost of running the moon harvester. You're obviously not using that POS for anything else in the meantime, since you have a harvester, reactor, a coupling and a silo hanging around.

If Cobalt really is worth 0, why aren't you harvesting the other moon material that the moon offers instead?

Perhaps your POS monkeys have nothing better to do with their time than earn a few thousand ISK/hr?

Cobalt was previously well below fuel cost for a POS - even using Querns' assumptions, that cost is ~1700/unit. Using current fuel prices, that cost is 2760/unit. Both numbers are going to fall.

Sigras wrote:
as for Promiscuous Female's earlier numbers:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Costs:
* 15 fuel blocks: 177,360 isk
* 100 cobalt: free
* 10 platinum: 42,069.70 isk

Subtotal: 219,429.70 isk
Divide by 20 to get 10,971.49 isk per unit of plat tech


you realize this is based on someone who is running a tower at cost? why would ANYONE put this tower up and go through all the work of fueling it to make NOTHING?

You have to assume if im running a POS, especially out in 0.0 im going to want at least 200 million a month to cover the cost of jumping fuel out, product back and putting up with all the hassle

200,000,000 / 30 days / 24 hours / 20 units per hour = 13,888.88 isk per unit of PT

Youre also not counting the increase in demand for T2 once the prices stop being so ridiculous. Math only works when you account for all the factors.

Profit is a nasty point with Alchemy because the whole point of Alchemy is that they're supposed to straddle zero profit - if they become profitable, they get rushed until they are unprofitable. But lets run with it for the sake of argument and agree on 200m/hr - an additional 13888/unit for PT, bringing the cost to 24,859/unit.

The simple reaction for PT produces 200 per hour, so using alchemized PT as the break-even point, 200x24,859=4,971,800 isk/hr. The input costs for this reaction are fuel (15 fuel blocks = 177,360 isk) and platinum (100 platinum: 420,697 isk), so 598,057 isk/hr. There is also the Tech, which we'll represent as 100X.

598,057 + 100X = 4,971,800; solve for X.
100X = 5,569,857
X = 55,698.57

So our minimum price for Tech is mid-55k. For the record, at 100m/mo profit, it's 34k. Both drop if the fuel estimates Querns' used prove to be conservative, and regardless, both are well short of the 80k Fozzie was apparently aiming for.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#834 - 2012-07-27 13:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:

I guess attacking a 9 Trillion ISK a week bloc that has no interest in generating conflict isn't worth driving conflict, hence your "conflict drivers" are a load of crap.

also in case it wasn't clear enough you were bad at math

400 tech moons is a high estimate
let us assume tech is 200k

that's 5.7 trillion from tech moons per month: all tech moons, everywhere (you're asserting a income of ~36t isk per month)
so you were only off by a factor of 6 or so if our "bloc" owned every tech moon in the game



I was simply using Grath Telkin's reference to a 9 Trillion ISK Straw.


Grath Telkin wrote:

Bloodpetal wrote: wrote:


When Ring mining comes out there will be.

They will be called MINERS. They will be players that mine. And they will be out there mining. And then people will want to kill them.


No, actually they wont die, their scout 2 jumps over will have reported incoming hostiles long before the miners themselves are ever in danger and they'll then POS up or dock up thanks to the 20 large bubbles they'll anchor on their ingates.

Glad to see you play EVE in 0.0.



Glad you didn't win the Tournament this year. It is true PL sucks without super caps.


Oh, and the whole "ya we invaded Delve crap" was explicitly and REPEATEDLY cited as a point of how Tech was NOT the conflict driver and is gonna be carried across the finish line by the CCP Devs as the reason why Tech can be nerfed without destroying the EVE Conflict drivers. You already signed the Technitium moon mining death knell by your own actions.

The results of the Delve war, more importantly than anything else, showed that there was absolutely NO FINANCIAL incentive to attack Delve other than "ya, they pissed us off", Despite Gareth's insinutations that all actions in 0.0 are financially motivated.

The true revelations of the Delve war were that OTEC are so overwhelming that one of the most "anticipated wars in EVE" ended in less than a week because the other 0.0 alliances realized it would be financial ruin to face up against OTEC in an extended war scenario because of the sheer volume of income available.

Where I am.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#835 - 2012-07-27 13:35:09 UTC
Hammer Legion Member wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:

The NC was nowhere near as organized as the CFC is. Even the GBC lacked that level of organization.


haha not like you could speak out of personnal experience, can you? GBC and NC were basicly nothing different to the current CFC...Goons didnt invent the Coalition either.

You just proved that you have absolutely no clue about how the CFC is organized, or you at least have a huge misunderstanding in how the NC was organized.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#836 - 2012-07-27 13:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
EvilweaselSA wrote:

edit: to put my credentials on the table, I'm Weaselior, the goonswarm CFO. I've also run a 20 tower reaction farm myself so I know how those work, and for our finances I've been wargaming this sort of nerf for a while so I did a lot of the math a while ago.


I'm aware of who you are and have a lot of respect for your work. Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it.


Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Now excuse us while we tighten our stranglehold around the next outrageous moneymaking gimmick.


I wouldn't expect anything less. Everyone involved is too smart to get crippled by this or any other game change.


corestwo wrote:
both are well short of the 80k Fozzie was apparently aiming for.


I'm not aiming for 80k. I've told the CSM the range I'm aiming for but I won't be sharing it with the general public.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#837 - 2012-07-27 13:47:52 UTC
25k.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#838 - 2012-07-27 13:53:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
corestwo wrote:
both are well short of the 80k Fozzie was apparently aiming for.


I'm not aiming for 80k. I've told the CSM the range I'm aiming for but I won't be sharing it with the general public.


Fair enough, but depending on what assumptions you believe, you're missing your mark by a considerable amount. For example...

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

While we realize this will be a multi stage release, the boredom of 0.0 wont make it until some november release, we need MORE things to drive conflicts NOW not later, and taking the last thing left out isn't really the best idea.


I completely agree that some space being better than other space is good game design.
But the game doesn't need 180k tech to have conflict. Tech is now only 5x the value of the second best moon instead of 11x. The profit there isn't disappearing, it's moving to other activities that people can get involved in.
Arguing that we need 100k+ tech so the moons will drive conflict is like saying we need remote AOE doomsdays so that CSAAs will drive conflict. Sometimes game balance is just game balance.


Tech is either .8x or 2x the value of the second best moon and frankly, as Neodymium should be (and is) rising in response to this, both are shrinking. Or maybe there's this?

CCP Fozzie wrote:
One of the goals up until the beginning of phase two is for Tech to continue being the best moon in the game by a large margin.

I suppose that could be accurate, depending on what the definition of "large margin" is.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#839 - 2012-07-27 13:57:43 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
The true revelations of the Delve war were that OTEC are so overwhelming that one of the most "anticipated wars in EVE" ended in less than a week because the other 0.0 alliances realized it would be financial ruin to face up against OTEC in an extended war scenario because of the sheer volume of income available.

No, the true revelation of the delve war is that -A- is ****, and Makalu's greatest enemy is a rifterbro with a web. Or someone ECMing him. Or any enemy bringing any ship not on his specific list of "acceptable sparring partner ships", he'll just dock the fleet up.

And that any coalition where -A- is the core alliance is bound to fail, as we saw when they said "welp back to stain" within 48 hours of the initial proclamation of war.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#840 - 2012-07-27 14:00:32 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
The true revelations of the Delve war were that OTEC are so overwhelming that one of the most "anticipated wars in EVE" ended in less than a week because the other 0.0 alliances realized it would be financial ruin to face up against OTEC in an extended war scenario because of the sheer volume of income available.


You're making assumptions here. "They didn't fight back because they realized it would ruin them." Or maybe they didn't fight back because they're -A- and their strategy has always been to not fight back when invaded? There are forum and jabber logs from spies demonstrating that allowing us to take the space and re-invading later, like they always do, was their plan all along.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo