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Rookie Frigate Changes

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#81 - 2012-07-25 11:08:59 UTC
well as your re-balancing frigs with roles in mind i don't think there's much chance of this being better as such more as a jack of all trades type ship like t3 cruisers were meant to be unless you want this ship to be in effect a 2 day ship/tier1 ship.
When you think of t1 frigs they are all cheap enough for anyone to throw away i think so long as it doesn't do any one job better than other t1 frigs then there is no threat of it being OP or unbalanced and can provide a interesting alternative for pvp noobs.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#82 - 2012-07-25 11:24:30 UTC
Sorry but I have to agree that the Ibis should not be carrying an ECM bonus. Until ECM stops being utterly broken the last thing we need are more bonused ships for it (even if it's a rookie ship).
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#83 - 2012-07-25 11:34:12 UTC
in what way is ecm broken do you know what you are talking about how many ecm ships have you used?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
mkint
#84 - 2012-07-25 13:13:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If anything I would like to phase out as many civilian modules as possible and just get new players the skillbooks to use tech one right away.


I think that idea might need further thought. There are two big contradictory concerns when doing the tutorials. 1) being given equipment and told to do stuff but not being able to for a couple hours because you don't have the skills 1a)being given skills for the tutorials that you can't train, being given modules to use but being given the skill several missions later, being given a module but not even being told whether or not you'll be given the skill at all, 2) the confusion that civ gear is useless

The simplest solution is to make rookie gear useful enough to be used outside tutorials (maybe lvl 1's like the rookie ships.)

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-07-25 20:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
CCP Fozzie wrote:
MotherMoon wrote:
oh, serious suggestion!

ok, one goal you could have for these noob ships could be a way for newer players to check out every faction type ship in the game when just starting out. Give 1 of each of them to new players. just for fun.

THEN, make civilian versions of each weapon type. Kinda like dust is >.> <.< which i hear at fanfest *no break NDA*

Right now there is no civ autoconnon, or civ atries. I think giving people some more civ options would be great change at some point. Help players pick which race path to move down. IT's confusing honestly to start and there is no ammo. So do that to, make the cheap almost free gear use civ ammo.

Right now players moving up to real turrets sometimes gets confused by ammo. can't blame them.


The tutorial actually gives you a normal tech one turret nowadays and teaches you about ammo. The only source of civilian guns is when you unpackage a rookie ship. If anything I would like to phase out as many civilian modules as possible and just get new players the skillbooks to use tech one right away.

Harvey James wrote:
CCP Fozzie here is an important question for you are the ewar bonus's merely for show or do you want them to be useful in pvp?


Primary purpose is for show, but I'm really interested to see if people find fun ways to use them in pvp. I think some of the community confusion I'm seeing (mostly on other forums) stems from people incorrectly thinking those bonuses are per level.


right on

at the same time when you get the turret and skill book you can't equip it for a while... maybe just have skills start off at level one when you inject them? i don't know, but yes good point, you've made into a get rid of civ gear believer.|

Another idea is give new players all of those skill books for free right off the bat. at level one? all of the basic gear needed to play the game?

hmm another idea is you could move the NPE to start players off walking in station. And have the market tutorial be 1st? give the player enough money to buy the basic gear before undocking. in fact, froce them to use the market, make it so they can't spend that money on anything but meta 1 turret and ammo?

lots of sandbox games do this from time to time. Making it so your 1st 10 minutes are scripted. So you can go through the motions. don't let the player undock if they don't have ammo in the cargo hold, ect.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Cecil Arongo
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2012-07-25 23:01:44 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
mkint wrote:
When you say "useful" and "versatile" and stuff, what exactly do you mean in this case? What performance should we expect out of the new noob ships? Tutorials only? lvl 1 missions? lvl 2's? PVP vs T1 frigs?


These frigates should be capable of running level 1 missions and career agents, but we don't want them to be good enough that players keep using them as primary ships more than a few days into the game. Hence the role bonuses instead of per-level bonuses.


http://ghunt.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12752587

You DO realize that we already abuse the noobships? Now you are just encouraging us to embarrass people :)

This is for all you new people: I have one rule. Everyone fights, no one quits. If you dont do your job I will shoot you myself. DO YOU GET ME?
Pipa Porto
#87 - 2012-07-25 23:33:06 UTC
Cecil Arongo wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
mkint wrote:
When you say "useful" and "versatile" and stuff, what exactly do you mean in this case? What performance should we expect out of the new noob ships? Tutorials only? lvl 1 missions? lvl 2's? PVP vs T1 frigs?


These frigates should be capable of running level 1 missions and career agents, but we don't want them to be good enough that players keep using them as primary ships more than a few days into the game. Hence the role bonuses instead of per-level bonuses.


http://ghunt.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=12752587

You DO realize that we already abuse the noobships? Now you are just encouraging us to embarrass people :)


Web and Scram, and didn't kill a single one. Oops

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-07-26 09:57:37 UTC
Just out of curiosity, what would everyone who doesn't want the Ibis to receive an ECM role bonus suggest that it gets to introduce Caldari players into electronic warfare?

On a separate note. Was there any discussion about logistics bonuses? In some respects the rookie ships are already looking to be "get your feet wet in everything"/JoaT style ships so seeing an energy transfer bonus on the impairor, shield transfer bonus on the ibis, remote armor repair bonus on the velator, and tracking link bonus on the reaper might not be too out of place in the grand scheme of things. Nothing major, just say a 25% reduction in capacitor consumption of the first three modules and a 7.5% boost to the effectiveness of tracking links. The bonus arrangement would, to a degree, mimic the setup of the T1 "logistics" cruisers while not actually competing with them.
Doddy
Excidium.
#89 - 2012-07-26 11:16:53 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Saul Elsyn wrote:
As a side note... Goonswarm's newest fleet doctrine! The n00b ship fleet!

What do you mean, 'newest'?

Anyway, this is going to be hilarious. But for the love of god get rid of the launcher hardpoints on the velator and impairor, giving amarr and gallente newbies launcher options is just going to confuse them into thinking they need to train missiles for their racial ships and you just end up with a lot of confused newbies wasting training time on missile skills. (For that matter the same can be said about the non-Caldari missile frigs, since 'damaging things with missiles' isn't a significantly different role to 'damaging things with guns' and it has the same side effect of encouraging poor training decisions amongst players who can't be expected to know any better.)


While i agree on the gallente side for sure, the amarr do in fact have missile ships. Assuming they are not going to remove amarr missile boats entirely (unlikely given thier plans for rocket inquisitor) they definately should leave some missile options open for new amarr players so everyone doesn't find themselves limited down the line.
Doddy
Excidium.
#90 - 2012-07-26 11:30:21 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

IBIS:

Role bonuses:
20% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range
10% bonus to missile kinetic damage
30% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
10% bonus to shield resistances


No.

Seriously, 30% ECM strength?

GRIFFIN : 15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength and 10% bonus to ECM Target Jammers' capacitor need per level.

So L5 frigate gives you 150% jam strength? So an IBIS can almost perma jam a rifter with a racial jammer and outperforms a GRIFFIN??

Look, ECM is already an issue, we don't need swarms of ECM IBIS' out there. These frigates should be viable as nooby training and most nooby training is going to happen against NPC ships not as ECM platforms use in PVP.

I think the whole EWAR element of these should be totally turned away. A noob doesn't need EWAR to learn to play the game with 2 mid slots.




If you are going to use caps PLEASE HAVE UNDERSTOOD WHAT "ROLE BONUS" IS.
Smoole
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2012-07-26 12:54:23 UTC
Buffed n00bships yay! RVB is going to have soo much fun with these!
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#92 - 2012-07-26 18:55:15 UTC
Looking forward to being permajammed by a troll ibis!

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#93 - 2012-07-26 20:28:32 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Looking forward to being permajammed by a troll ibis!


LOL it needs more mids though for that with its lack of strength and 2 slots and its popability if it doesn't use AB

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-07-27 01:38:18 UTC
Shereza wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what would everyone who doesn't want the Ibis to receive an ECM role bonus suggest that it gets to introduce Caldari players into electronic warfare?

On a separate note. Was there any discussion about logistics bonuses? In some respects the rookie ships are already looking to be "get your feet wet in everything"/JoaT style ships so seeing an energy transfer bonus on the impairor, shield transfer bonus on the ibis, remote armor repair bonus on the velator, and tracking link bonus on the reaper might not be too out of place in the grand scheme of things. Nothing major, just say a 25% reduction in capacitor consumption of the first three modules and a 7.5% boost to the effectiveness of tracking links. The bonus arrangement would, to a degree, mimic the setup of the T1 "logistics" cruisers while not actually competing with them.

The tristan is being converted into a full missile boat, so that every race has one. Plus, I'm sure CCP want to show off their missile effects right from the start Smile

On an unrelated note, is it still possible to move the hull fire effect on the ibis? Currently, it's situated on the nose, so when you're flying along, most of the flame is lost inside the hull. Just pop it onto an engine housing if you could. Yes, I did some ratting in lowsec with my ibis and managed to escape in structure; couldn't have done that with the old versions Cool

Any possibility of an extra high slot for the rookie ships? It'd be good for a salvager or probe launcher, mini-professions that players might want to look at.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#95 - 2012-07-27 10:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
To be fully clear, all the bonuses on these ships do not scale with level, they are fixed. We'll look at changing the text in the ship info to make that more clear in a later release as it's obviously been a source of confusion.

A few more tweaks:

IMPAIROR:
-0.8 Inertia (agility buff)
-2km lock range
-2 signature radius

IBIS:
-0.65 Inertia (agility buff)
-2km lock range
-2 signature radius

VELATOR:
-1.13 Inertia (agility buff)
-1.5km lock range
-2 signature radius

REAPER:
-0.8 Inertia (agility buff)
-0.5km lock range
-2 signature radius

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#96 - 2012-07-27 10:58:02 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To be fully clear, all the bonuses on these ships do not scale with level, they are fixed. We'll look at changing the text in the ship info to make that more clear in a later release as it's obviously been a source of confusion.

A few more tweaks:

IMPAIROR:
-0.8 Inertia (agility buff)
-2km lock range
-2 signature radius

IBIS:
-0.65 Inertia (agility buff)
-2km lock range
-2 signature radius

VELATOR:
-1.13 Inertia (agility buff)
-1.5km lock range
-2 signature radius

REAPER:
-0.8 Inertia (agility buff)
-0.5km lock range
-2 signature radius


these buffs are far too small to be of any real effect you need to go further with these changes and also improve the ships in general including at least more mid slots

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#97 - 2012-07-27 11:02:20 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To be fully clear, all the bonuses on these ships do not scale with level, they are fixed. We'll look at changing the text in the ship info to make that more clear in a later release as it's obviously been a source of confusion.

A few more tweaks:

IMPAIROR:
-0.8 Inertia (agility buff)
-2km lock range
-2 signature radius

IBIS:
-0.65 Inertia (agility buff)
-2km lock range
-2 signature radius

VELATOR:
-1.13 Inertia (agility buff)
-1.5km lock range
-2 signature radius

REAPER:
-0.8 Inertia (agility buff)
-0.5km lock range
-2 signature radius


these buffs are far too small to be of any real effect you need to go further with these changes and also improve the ships in general including at least more mid slots


We're not trying to have the real effect you're looking for here, sorry.

Goals are for them to be fun for very new players to fly, give new players a look at the combat philosophy of their chosen race, and be useful until they decide to upgrade to a tech one frigate.

I'm also looking forward to comedy fleets and gank nights using these new frigs but flying a rookie frigate should never be a strictly better option than a tech one frigate for players over a week old.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Pipa Porto
#98 - 2012-07-27 11:06:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
players over a week old.


Isn't the minimum age to play 18 years old or something?

Can week old players really use the mouse with the precision necessary to play the game?

Anyway, aside from my little cargo annoyance (I think you could easily demostrate the "Amarr need less space" by giving them all another 5m3 bump, but whatever), the changes look fantastic. I look forward to many comedy fleets of these for DPS and Skiffs for heavy tackle/Cynos.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#99 - 2012-07-27 11:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
[quote]We're not trying to have the real effect you're looking for here, sorry.

Goals are for them to be fun for very new players to fly, give new players a look at the combat philosophy of their chosen race, and be useful until they decide to upgrade to a tech one frigate.

I'm also looking forward to comedy fleets and gank nights using these new frigs but flying a rookie frigate should never be a strictly better option than a tech one frigate for players over a week old.[quote]

I understand just disappointed as i thought all ships were going to be useful no matter how old our char is.
These are essentially the tier1 of frigs like the attack frigs are on TQ atm at the very least half the size of their ridiculous sig radius.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Lord Helghast
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-07-27 11:38:07 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
[quote]We're not trying to have the real effect you're looking for here, sorry.

Goals are for them to be fun for very new players to fly, give new players a look at the combat philosophy of their chosen race, and be useful until they decide to upgrade to a tech one frigate.

I'm also looking forward to comedy fleets and gank nights using these new frigs but flying a rookie frigate should never be a strictly better option than a tech one frigate for players over a week old.[quote]

I understand just disappointed as i thought all ships were going to be useful no matter how old our char is.
These are essentially the tier1 of frigs like the attack frigs are on TQ atm at the very least half the size of their ridiculous sig radius.

FAIL QUOTE

lol, but come on dude their called ROOKIE SHIPS, the "any ship useful for any playerage" is only gonna scale to real ships not freebie crap ships... and even then, the ship is technically useful, for LOL fleets