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Mining Barges Fedback...
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Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#1 - 2012-07-26 01:54:46 UTC
I actually like the new changes coming. The new fittings allow for less-gank friendly ships...

But, what I would REALLY like is a little...just a wee bit, more power-grid in the Exhumers. Maybe add a bonus like "1-5% power-grid bonus per level"

Also, I'm slightly confused with the BS tank on the skiff. What is the point of that exactly? I was half expecting the Hulk to have more of a tank due to it's size.
The Skiff.
275m Long, 53m High, 103m Wide.
Example Raven (for comparison/smallest BS in game)
806m Long, 447m High, 795m Wide.

The Skiff is almost 3 times smaller then the smallest BS in the game, but with the following fits, has a stronger tank then the comparison Raven.

Skiff fit. Max tank.
Med Core Def Ext x2
Modulated Strip Miner II
Ada Invul Field II x2
EM Ward II
Medium F-S9 x2
DCU II
Power Diag II

Tank Stats
Resists (shield) = 85% EM, 78% Therm, 84% Kin, 85% Ex. w/ 107,557 EHP

Raven
Large Core Def Ext x3
Torp Launcher II x6
Ada Invul Field II x2
EM Ward II
Large Ext II x2
10MN AFB
DCU
Ballistic x4

Tank Stats (shield) = 76% EM, 64% Therm, 73% Kin, 78 Ex. w/ 98,619EHP

This is with lvl 4 skills with no boosts of any kind, nor implants.

I was expecting the Skiff fitted for tank to be around 30k EHP, Mackinaw 40k EHP, Hulk 50k EHP, respectively.

This way it wouldn't be OP and still be gankable (gotta love those Tornadoes)

Otherwise, I'll just watch all the Mackinaws with 60k EHP (using lvl 4 skills) sit in ICE belts and bot away.....again
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#2 - 2012-07-26 03:59:06 UTC
they flat out said in the devblog the skiff would have a BS tank.. it's the survivability mining ship - good for non-fleet mining in 0.0. ASB+regen tank it can tank 2k dps. long enough to scream for help and be saved.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#3 - 2012-07-26 04:51:27 UTC
Yeah, the new Skiff is quite a beast.

I'd want it to have at least 25m3 dronebay and bandwith so it potentially can have a full flight of T2 light drones - that'd probably make it able to take down rat cruisers or battlecruisers.
If its Exhumer skill bonuses were changed to accommodate a reliance on drone defence it'd be awesome.
Something like going from this (Current Skiff skill bonuses on SiSi):
Exhumer skill bonus per level:
1% bonus to Strip Miner yield
1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration

To this:
Exhumer skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level (Not mining yield)
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount per level (Alternatively, this could be +5m3 dronebay per level like the Ishkur)

Then it would be very good for mining without combat ship support in 0.0.
The same thing could be achieved by increasing the Skiffs dronebay from the 15m3 to 25m3 or more.

On the other hand, I think the Hulk dronebay (50m3) is too much when it is supposed to not be able to defend itself very well (It can have a full flight of T2 light drones and T2 mining drones, or it could swap one of those flights for a flight of T2 light shield maintenance drones). I think it's a problem that the Hulk can defend itself better from rats than the Skiff, when the Skiff should be about survivability and the Hulk about "pure mining".

I haven't tried the Mackinaw yet, so I can't comment on that.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#4 - 2012-07-26 10:25:34 UTC
Denidil wrote:
they flat out said in the devblog the skiff would have a BS tank.. it's the survivability mining ship - good for non-fleet mining in 0.0. ASB+regen tank it can tank 2k dps. long enough to scream for help and be saved.

No one will actually use this, think about it for 1 minute. Everyone in their right mind (including myself) will just keep on using the Hulk. Using the current Hulk in 0.0, and a tank w/proper resists and a small shield booster you can tank a BS long enough for help to arrive. Or with maxed fitting/shield skills (my main) you can perma tank it and be cap stable. I've been doing this for a year, please tell me otherwise. The only actual use that I can see for this is cyno/bait ship. Only the high sec paranoid noob will use it, but they'll just the Mack. Smash their face against the wall a few times until they get a good fit, then use it. Esp with it's insane ORE bay and 55-60k EHP...
Doddy
Excidium.
#5 - 2012-07-26 10:41:42 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:


I was expecting the Skiff fitted for tank to be around 30k EHP, Mackinaw 40k EHP, Hulk 50k EHP, respectively.

This way it wouldn't be OP and still be gankable (gotta love those Tornadoes)

Otherwise, I'll just watch all the Mackinaws with 60k EHP (using lvl 4 skills) sit in ICE belts and bot away.....again



How exactly would the skiff be the tanky exhumer if it had less hp than the other two? Makes no sense at all.

They have definately missed a trick with having so much ehp for the hulk/makinaw though, they have enough to ensure the skiff will only be used when there is a direct threat like hulkageddon.
Doddy
Excidium.
#6 - 2012-07-26 10:44:14 UTC
Also your comparison raven is not fitted for tank ......
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-07-26 10:46:46 UTC
Skiff can't fight off anything in 0.0 - well, maybe a scramming frig or two. So you either need to permatank the BS rats or fly off to a belt/grav site that has no ratz.

In my dreams, a Skiff with 50m3 drone bay (full flight of med combat drones) would be ideal.
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries
The OORT Cloud
#8 - 2012-07-26 12:18:38 UTC
I don't know.

I think for the most part I will be continue to use Hulks.
However it is a well known that when you start mining the first thing you are forced to do is create a hauler.

The macks are the answer to this.

I have also been in fleets large enough to have 2/3 full time rorquals hauling ore out of the belt.
Let alone one sitting in the POS giving bonuses.

In situations like that I believe the loss of some yield might be worth it to switch to macks and remove the haulers from the belt.
Maybe thinking about running the numbers on that one.

The point is the macks provide a nice option that just flat out wasn't there before.

As far as skiff's well they always had a monster tank, and where designed to fly alone.

They should all have 50 m^3 drone bays. That is not asking too much for a sitting target.
They should be able to kill the rats without asking for help.
Dave Stark
#9 - 2012-07-26 12:57:42 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
In my dreams, a Skiff with 50m3 drone bay (full flight of med combat drones) would be ideal.


dreams are now reality.
Shalua Rui
Rui Freelance Mining
#10 - 2012-07-26 13:14:14 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
In my dreams, a Skiff with 50m3 drone bay (full flight of med combat drones) would be ideal.


This, if survivability is the reason behind the Skiff changes... taking hits is not everything. I mean, maybe I am abit of a newb there, cause I mostly mine borderline lowsec alone, but having a s-load of EHP doesn't help me much when I am hanging webbed and scrambled in a belt, with no help nearby...

"ginger forum goddess, space gypsy and stone nibbler extraordinaire!" Shalua Rui - CEO and founder of Rui Freelance Mining (RFLM)
Harold Tuphlos
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#11 - 2012-07-26 14:39:28 UTC
50m3 skiff is stupid OP, I would go solo versus a cane that doesn't have neuts in a tanked one.
Beyil
Vat Recycling
#12 - 2012-07-27 02:49:48 UTC
My biggest complaint is that the cargo bay on the barges and the exhumers is way too small... I am saying this in relation to using modulated strip miners and t2 crystals. there is enough cargo space to hold 3 sets of t2 crystals plus enough room to move one crystal out of a laser... no more room so if you are mining and using the t2 crystals you have to go out with a set in hte lasers and a set for the remaining 3 types of ore that there is in high sec and not loot any wrecks from rat kills... let alone consider that in nul sec that there is anywhere from 8 to 12 ore types you have to deal with in a single belt. again all this is really doing if forcing us to not be able to solo mine or only run t1 strip miner. this is beyond stupid.

possible solution... since there is a move to put the ore mined into an ore bay and not the cargo bay which we that used the mining crystals used to sacrifice part of for mining crystals... to give us a reasonable bay that will only hold mining crystals....

Currently there is 16 crystal types. each for a different type of ore. each t2 variant take 50m3 and these crystals break at an alarmingly fast rate. for each barge that bay would have to vary due to the number of possible mining lasers. but it is not unreasonable to say put in a bay that will only allow t1 or t2 mining crystals that can hold up to say 16 sets that takes away from the overall ore bay by the amount used up from crystals. this gives us what we had before... as for main cargo then the bay could be as little as as say 100m3 this would give us a small overflow buffer area to swap out crystals and gather any loot we get from rats.

so basically for a:
producer a space of 800m3
retriever a space of 1600m3
covetor a space of 2400m3

have this space be shared with the ore bay space aka count as ore in the ore bay but takes up to amounts listed above
the main thing is that there is inadequate space currently to hold mining crystals in any of the barge holds with the incoming changes as not always do we have a support ship with in 2500m of our location. if we have a support ship it can be over 200km away especially when you are dealing with a rorqual.
as I stated before these incoming changes greatly discourage the use of modulated strip miners.
Infinite Force
#13 - 2012-07-27 05:30:22 UTC
Beyil wrote:
My biggest complaint is that the cargo bay on the barges and the exhumers is way too small... I am saying this in relation to using modulated strip miners and t2 crystals. there is enough cargo space to hold 3 sets of t2 crystals plus enough room to move one crystal out of a laser... no more room so if you are mining and using the t2 crystals you have to go out with a set in hte lasers and a set for the remaining 3 types of ore that there is in high sec and not loot any wrecks from rat kills... let alone consider that in nul sec that there is anywhere from 8 to 12 ore types you have to deal with in a single belt. again all this is really doing if forcing us to not be able to solo mine or only run t1 strip miner. this is beyond stupid.

possible solution... since there is a move to put the ore mined into an ore bay and not the cargo bay which we that used the mining crystals used to sacrifice part of for mining crystals... to give us a reasonable bay that will only hold mining crystals....

Currently there is 16 crystal types. each for a different type of ore. each t2 variant take 50m3 and these crystals break at an alarmingly fast rate. for each barge that bay would have to vary due to the number of possible mining lasers. but it is not unreasonable to say put in a bay that will only allow t1 or t2 mining crystals that can hold up to say 16 sets that takes away from the overall ore bay by the amount used up from crystals. this gives us what we had before... as for main cargo then the bay could be as little as as say 100m3 this would give us a small overflow buffer area to swap out crystals and gather any loot we get from rats.

so basically for a:
producer a space of 800m3
retriever a space of 1600m3
covetor a space of 2400m3

have this space be shared with the ore bay space aka count as ore in the ore bay but takes up to amounts listed above
the main thing is that there is inadequate space currently to hold mining crystals in any of the barge holds with the incoming changes as not always do we have a support ship with in 2500m of our location. if we have a support ship it can be over 200km away especially when you are dealing with a rorqual.
as I stated before these incoming changes greatly discourage the use of modulated strip miners.

It is understandable that there would be multiple threads on the changes and it can be cumbersome to read through 14+ pages of feedback and discussion.

I highly suggest the creative use of the search function to find posts that backup what you're talking about :)

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#14 - 2012-07-27 05:55:23 UTC
I setup one of each barge and exhumer for each function - DCM, Ore, Ice, and then tried to setup as people might... the main one I see is that empire miners:

ancillary booster, all upgrades in the lows and the needed strip/harvester in the top, and then shield rigs... Cargo rigs are now pointless. with the ore bays.

I see the need for more PG on the exhumers also, at least 1 point more... can't do it with implant because the same slot is all your industry implants. I tried to fit 1x T2 sml boostr, 1x invul T2, 2x cap recharger IIs with MLU or MLU and DCU in low and T2 strips in a hulk and less 1 point of PG... sad.

I basically see if this is the final release the Mack and the Ret being the new main miners and the hulk being considered too expensive v the gain to use for solo or fleet...it just now lacks... and the skill will be a HAG ship but see that as they will just come at you like they do with a Orca which is about the same EHP...so not sure this is going to help.

HERE is what I was hoping for:

1. T1 miners would use T1 ammo, T2 would use T2 or T1
2. There would be a Gas harvester option - besides ice and ore for at least exhumers
3. more PG
4. Ore Bays... ok got that.
5. better tank - ok sorta got that on one.
6. Roles for ship - GONE now... sad. T2 ships with NO roles is counter to T2 doctrine.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#15 - 2012-07-27 07:32:34 UTC
Aurelius Valentius wrote:


1. T1 miners would use T1 ammo, T2 would use T2 or T1
2. There would be a Gas harvester option - besides ice and ore for at least exhumers
3. more PG
4. Ore Bays... ok got that.
5. better tank - ok sorta got that on one.
6. Roles for ship - GONE now... sad. T2 ships with NO roles is counter to T2 doctrine.


The specific roles are gone, but the roles concept isn't.

Here is an existing example to help justify the new set up:
Punisher - Retribution
Executioner - Crusader
Crucifier - Sentinel

In each of these cases the T2 are simply an improvement on the roles of their T1 counter part

The same now applies to the barges

Procurer - Skiff : Tank, Working in hostile space
Retriever - Mackinaw: Cargo, independence
Covetor - Hulk: Yield, working with a team to get the max yield they can in the shortest amount of time.

The problem with gas is that the gas miners use turrets and barges have none.

They don't really need more PG as now a tank-fit mackinaw can get 49k EHP (in-game not EFT) even with Small extenders. If you added enough PG to let them fit mediums then it would be pretty op.

T1 should remain crystal-less personally because it allows a new player to start mining quick without having to first train half a dozen processing skills to be able to use the crystals.

The progression from T1 strip, to T2 strip with T1 crystals to T2 strip with T2 crystals is much smoother

The Drake is a Lie