These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

Lets fix Null Sec, Tech, Afk Cloaking, Manufacturing... well.. Lets fix it all.

First post
Author
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-07-27 04:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
I have come up with the ultimate fix for null sec as a whole. I want you all to poke holes in this BEFORE I put this to Features and Ideas. So, I figured... what better way to get an idea torn apart than to release it to the public of General Discussion.

It would literally mean re-thinking half the mechanics in the game, but if done properly, it would keep the sandbox and actually improve on it. I also feel that it wouldn't take too much 'coding' as many of the ideas below would just require a few server scripts to run that would reallocate a few resources. Some of these fixes could go through very quickly.

I came to play a sandbox, this sandbox is slowly slipping away from us.

Throughout your thoughts on how you feel null sec should be fixed, you need to always remember that it shouldn't be CCP's job to create mechanics which favor one side or the other. It's simply their job to create the tools for us to play and build. You also need to keep in mind that in a sandbox, all forms of gameplay need to be considered.

So to start... We first need to break down nullsec into it's categories and why each is so horribly broken then provide constructive resolutions to solve the issues surrounding them.

ArrowThe Lowest Common Denominator.
The lineman or grunt is probably the first and foremost important aspect of any null sec entity. They need to feel as though they are first part of something worth fighting for. In order for this to happen, the entity and banner they wave should have a sense of pride. To date, this has been accomplished many ways. Some enjoy pvp and having good k/d ratios. Others like controlling vast quantities of space and space riches. Others take pride in their ability to remain nomadic and control the high value resources that don't require sov. Then there are the small but still around bunch who enjoy the lore and wage war based on old racial grudges.

When developing space, the grunt needs to feel as though he can participate in helping build his empire. Right now, this aspect is severely lacking in many of the areas I've listed above simply because the current focus is on their personal gain. While this is still important, not enough emphasis is placed on how resources are held and maintained. If a member of an alliance had a mechanic which would allow them to contribute to the strength of an alliance without being forced into doing things they don't want to do, and at the same time reap rewards for it, I feel the system would be much more engaging and immerse the pilot.

ArrowSOV And Structure Grinding
First and foremost, sov grinding sucks big hairy... well, if you've ever done it you know where I'm going. It's horrible. People hate doing it because it's boring. The smaller griefing alliances do not enjoy it either. It's very challenging to have a way to take the proverbial rifter and hit a massive alliance such as ours. This was something that brought me to this game. I'd hear stories about the 3 day old dude who took out a ship worth thousands times more than his own. This is what needs to be achievable with sov mechanics if sov is vulnerable. But how to do it and still be fortified?

I propose we remove ihubs and instead push the upgrades into the POCO's on planets.

1. POCO's now house up to 2 upgrades in them at any time. If a griefing entity does his meta-gaming correctly, they have the potential to knock out jump bridge, ratting upgrades, cyno jammers... the list goes on. Only one type of upgrade can be installed in a system (similar to how only one jammer can be anchored).

2. To control sov, you have to maintain 51% of the planets. Many old schoolers will hate this, however moons sucked, ihubs suck more, this is a happy medium. With the short RF timer it'll make structure grinding less painful. I'll go into how this will become easier if the space is abandoned. As it stands, abandoning space is a form of defense, I propose a method to help mitigate this.

3. Strategic Index is re-vamped completely. It's now based on the following factors which are additive:
-Military Index + Industrial Index + Marketing Index + Traffic Index + Time System Held


AttentionMilitary Index: This is everything from ships killed in a system to ratting.
AttentionIndustrial Index: This is everything from minerals mined to moon goo to PI POCO activity all the way through to things manufactured (even at POS's) where time per hour on things in production is what holds this metric.
AttentionMarketing Index: Items bought/sold in a system. A new set of upgrades will also help reduce marketing taxes as well as lowering the contracting fees. This is constellation based.
AttentionTraffic Index: How many ships enter/leave the system in a day.
AttentionTime Held: How long you hold a system. However, you will never obtain past sov 3.5 based on time alone. You'll need the above indices to gain other benefits.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-07-27 04:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
ArrowFortify Systems Based On Activity.
To start, this system now has a dynamic resistance level on the POCO's based on the strategic level. The line members now can contribute to fortifying systems.

Mineral Bonus:
Below you'll notice that we have a bonus to bounty and a bonus to mineral usage during production. In order to implement the mineral production aspect of this system, you'd need to add an identifier on to all produced items in null sec at these perked rates due to the potential of reprocessing and creating minerals out of thin air. In essence, this would be the implementation of putting your mark on a ship produced and if this item were ever refined, you'd only receive the reduced mineral output.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1707789#post1707789

Expanding on this idea further. Instead of the bonus being mineral reduction, it would be time efficiency and/or more bonuses to refinery. - Fallorn

Ratting Bonus and now you have an effect on security status!:
For ratting in systems, people tend to migrate to the lowest sec systems and focus on upgrading them. Then, you find 50-60 dudes in that same system, they never leave... for days... months... The rest of null a null sec alliance's held space goes unused. So, we're now able to have an impact on security status and this would play into the Farms and Fields™ idea and you'd need to 'rotate your crops' so-to-speak.

How it works is that heavily ratted systems begin to increase in security status (it goes up and the value of the ratting anoms decreases). Systems in null sec have a cap on how low their security status can go, and would never go above 0.0. In order to regenerate a system back down to it's lower security status, you'd need to rat in other sovereign systems.

Sov 1:
-Resistances = 0%
-Ratting bounty x1
-Mineral usage in production x1
Sov 2:
-Resistances = 20%
-Ratting Bounty: x1.1
-Mineral usage in production x0.09
Sov 3:
-Resistances = 40%
-Ratting Bounty: x1.2
-Mineral usage in production x0.08
Sov 4:
-Resistances = 50%
-Ratting Bounty: x1.3
-Mineral usage in production x0.07
Sov 5:
-Resistances = 70%
-Ratting Bounty: x.1.4
-Mineral usage in production x0.06

ArrowMoon Mining and the Tech Manufacturing Problem
Contrary to popular belief, tech isn't broken. It's the process in which Tech 2 items in the game are manufactured which is that causes a bottleneck on a single resource. So, I propose we redistribute the moon resources in EVE, then redesign how Tech 2 manufacturing works so that depending on where you live in EVE determines what portion of the process you are focused on.

Basically, around Caldari space you'd have prom and tech. These two items would be the base for creating materials around Caldari Tech 2 products and weapon systems. See, you get to feed the lore nuts, and evenly distribute resources. You also are able to retain the sandbox of what is valuable is based on what we blow up. Drone regions would focus on module materials and drone components. The deeper you travel into null sec, the more prevalent these minerals on the moons become available.

Thu = Gallente/Rails
Dyspro = Amarr/Lasers
Neo = Mini/Projectile
Prom = Caldari/Missiles

This in essence, fixes tech. No longer are you after a single resource to produce all of your tech two. Instead, based on what we blow up in EVE determines the value of moon minerals. Space that has minerals based on doctrines which your alliance flies becomes valuable to you as if you are an industry heavy alliance, you can drive the costs down on your weapon systems and tech 2 ships.

This creates conflict because nobody uses a single racial doctrine exclusively. Some ships use other racial weapon systems to be effective.


ArrowThe Local Debate
OH GOD NOT THIS AGAIN!?

The wolf and sheep conundrum is vital in order to have hunters and prey. The hunters hate local, the prey love it. The bottom line is the challenge to make both sides happy... so bare with me and let me provide a middle ground. The wolves need to be able to catch their slippery sheep, and the sheep need a mechanic that makes them at least feel secure. If you have no sheep, there's no point for wolves to exist and both sides hate the game and don't log in.

You no longer show in local until you de-cloak.

Just think about the possibilities here for both sides. For the sheep, you need to work as a team in order to provide intel. For the wolves, this allows you to jump into a system, do a system scan and get a head start. Both sides need to be on their toes.

ArrowThe Cloaking Debate
Another... horrible subject.

Here's my solution. AFK cloaking is a harassment tactic, it's fun! I do it and I encourage everyone to do it someday as it's pretty fun to watch ratting hubs for my hostiles decline in activity. However, playing a game while not at your computer is not really playing a game. So, lets just put a fuel requirement on non-covert op cloaking devices. Covert op cloaking devices now have a time limit and regular cloaks have a fuel requirement of ~something~ cheap, maybe heavy water. It takes space, requires a refuel and would eventually require a chronic cloaker type to be active at his computer. It provides a meta game so we can try to catch that dude's re-fueling truck. Or, I can inject a spy in an alliance and refuel them with their own supplies Twisted

In conclusion:
-This system encourages pilots to populate their space and use it.
-It allows for smaller alliances to grief larger ones who have strategically held space. If they don't use it, it's more vulnerable to attack.
-It encourages nullsec manufacturing.


Basically... It does it all.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

Suqq Madiq
#3 - 2012-07-27 04:38:32 UTC
Too many words, but since you wrongly assume in your title that there's a problem with AFK cloaking then I'm going to assume the rest of what you have to say is garbage as well.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#4 - 2012-07-27 04:45:33 UTC
I doubt CCP will ever allow an increase in ratting bonuses.

Rather we'd end up with
x0.8 for sov 0
x1.0 for sov 5

Because inflation. Recall that they buffed anoms to get some activity and hurriedly nerfed it.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-07-27 04:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Too many words, but since you wrongly assume in your title that there's a problem with AFK cloaking then I'm going to assume the rest of what you have to say is garbage as well.


Please find where I said there's a problem with AFK cloaking.

I just wanted to attempt at providing a solution to the argument, not that there was a problem with it in general.



Alavaria Fera wrote:
I doubt CCP will ever allow an increase in ratting bonuses.

Rather we'd end up with
x0.8 for sov 0
x1.0 for sov 5

Because inflation. Recall that they buffed anoms to get some activity and hurriedly nerfed it.

This is where you should read about System Security Status degradation.
Quote:

Ratting Bonus and now you have an effect on security status!:
For ratting in systems, people tend to migrate to the lowest sec systems and focus on upgrading them. Then, you find 50-60 dudes in that same system, they never leave... for days... months... The rest of null a null sec alliance's held space goes unused. So, we're now able to have an impact on security status and this would play into the Farms and Fields™ idea and you'd need to 'rotate your crops' so-to-speak.

How it works is that heavily ratted systems begin to increase in security status (it goes up and the value of the ratting anoms decreases). Systems in null sec have a cap on how low their security status can go, and would never go above 0.0. In order to regenerate a system back down to it's lower security status, you'd need to rat in other sovereign systems.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

Tuireann Naari
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-07-27 04:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tuireann Naari
Well, Suqq Madiq is an ignorant toad, but I'm sure you could tell that already.

Everything looks good except the last two points.

For the point about Local, couldn't Local be eliminated and replaced by an intelligence tool of some kind? For instance, could there be a POS module that pings every 15 seconds or so and feeds all alliances/corporations blue to the owner details about any red or neutral ships which are uncloaked and in system? This could solve the AFK cloaker issue as well, since if cloakers did not appear in this intel tool, there would be no annoyance.

Of course, this would require a counter to cloaking. Maybe a new class of Destroyers, which have access to a module which can disrupt cloaks within a certain radius? Or perhaps a script for HIC bubbles performing the same function?

Anyways, those are my thoughts.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-07-27 04:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
Tuireann Naari wrote:
Well, Suqq Madiq is an ignorant toad, but I'm sure you could tell that already.

Everything looks good except the last two points.

For the point about Local, couldn't Local be eliminated and replaced by an intelligence tool of some kind? For instance, could there be a POS module that pings every 15 seconds or so and feeds all alliances/corporations blue to the owner details about any red or neutral ships which are uncloaked and in system? This could solve the AFK cloaker issue as well, since if cloakers did not appear in this intel tool, there would be no annoyance.

Of course, this would require a counter to cloaking. Maybe a new class of Destroyers, which have access to a module which can disrupt cloaks within a certain radius? Or perhaps a script for HIC bubbles performing the same function?

Anyways, those are my thoughts.

That would require CCP implementing a new mechanic that completely replaces something that functionally works.

I fear this with all my heart good sir.

Instead, my idea hits a happy medium between the two.


EDIT: Not to mention how horribly unbalanced warping cloaked + cyno would become. For what I propose is a nice little cookie to the dudes demanding it's removal, until a completely new system can be implemented that doesn't completely break EVE.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

Tuireann Naari
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-07-27 04:52:16 UTC
Zagdul wrote:

That would require CCP implementing a new mechanic that completely replaces something that functionally works.

I fear this with all my heart good sir.

Instead, my idea hits a happy medium between the two.


Good point, it could very well break many, many more things than it would actually fix.
Sathras
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2012-07-27 04:52:27 UTC
lets just put a fuel requirement on non-covert op cloaking devices. Cover op cloaking devices now have a time limit and regular cloaks have a fuel requirement of ~something~ cheap,


I approve of this especially and the rest is good too.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#10 - 2012-07-27 04:59:41 UTC
I can tell you really put a lot of thought into this. I don't fully know the ramifications for all of the changes you outlined but I hope CCP will listen to folks who live in null sec day in, and day out.

.

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-07-27 05:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Too many words, but since you wrongly assume in your title that there's a problem with AFK cloaking then I'm going to assume the rest of what you have to say is garbage as well.


I'll ask again which alliance were you in that we killed? You seem awful bitter for a faceless NPC alt.

Only mess with AFK cloaking after AFK mining has been fixed.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

Lipbite
Express Hauler
#12 - 2012-07-27 05:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
With all those "boost null-sec" threads I've started to think it's either stagnating badly or at least not as fun as low/hi-sec where residents almost never ask for new toys.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#13 - 2012-07-27 05:19:52 UTC
Lipbite wrote:
With all those "boost null-sec" threads I've started to think it's either stagnating badly or at least not as fun as low/hi-sec where residents almost never ask for new toys.


As someone who lived in highsec for a solid year, 100% of my favorite EVE memories took place in null.

Once you experience the freedom, you don't even think about looking back.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-07-27 05:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zagdul
Lipbite wrote:
With all those "boost null-sec" threads I've started to think it's either stagnating badly or at least not as fun as low/hi-sec where residents almost never ask for new toys.


It's been hit with a lot of nerfs and un-fun mechanics that really make for a lot of monotony. It needs some love, pretty badly.

EDIT: The alliances and people you fly with are great and are some of the most active and contributing communities to the EVE story. However, the tools we have for our sandbox are old, rusted, falling apart and we really need someone to look at them. A lot of the toys you guys didn't ask for, you got anyway and it attracted a lot of our members back to empire because they always felt as though they were forced into a cause that didn't benefit them in some way. Those benefits which did contribute to an individual's fun were slowly stripped away. Why fight or live in null sec if it's not worth fighting for. The only reason they do is to keep the community together, but it's done so at the expense of a very un-fun game.

Things like Dominion sov where a single battle could decide the outcome of an entire war are very demoralizing.

Ratting only benefiting a member and pigeon holing people into dead end pockets really congested the income of pilots.

Empire incursions was another draw away from our lovely homes.

Basically, all we have left are our communities we've built. Empire has gotten a ton of new toys whether you asked for them or not. We now are asking for a reason so that our communities can log in and enjoy the sanbox together.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

Suqq Madiq
#15 - 2012-07-27 05:23:20 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Too many words, but since you wrongly assume in your title that there's a problem with AFK cloaking then I'm going to assume the rest of what you have to say is garbage as well.


Please find where I said there's a problem with AFK cloaking.

I just wanted to attempt at providing a solution to the argument, not that there was a problem with it in general.



So, there's no problem with AFK cloaking, but you've suggested how it could be fixed. Why would you want to fix something that isn't broken? What possible reason would you make that leap unless you do, in fact, think there is a problem with AFK cloaking? Same goes with Local intelligence in Null. There is no problem with it. It is not broken. It does not need to be fixed, and yet here you are proposing ways that somebody that is not broken can be fixed. Can you understand why that might seem strange?
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-07-27 05:27:23 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Too many words, but since you wrongly assume in your title that there's a problem with AFK cloaking then I'm going to assume the rest of what you have to say is garbage as well.


Please find where I said there's a problem with AFK cloaking.

I just wanted to attempt at providing a solution to the argument, not that there was a problem with it in general.



So, there's no problem with AFK cloaking, but you've suggested how it could be fixed. Why would you want to fix something that isn't broken? What possible reason would you make that leap unless you do, in fact, think there is a problem with AFK cloaking? Same goes with Local intelligence in Null. There is no problem with it. It is not broken. It does not need to be fixed, and yet here you are proposing ways that somebody that is not broken can be fixed. Can you understand why that might seem strange?


I propose a fix to the debate good sir.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

nate555
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-07-27 08:22:52 UTC
Cloaking is what it is. People need to learn to adapt to their surroundings. If they can't do that then they shouldn't be playing the game
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#18 - 2012-07-27 08:23:38 UTC
This isn't rocket surgery.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2012-07-27 08:25:49 UTC
Personally, I am cool with whatever as long as jamming makes you (Zagdul) hit your burners and head for the boundary while shouting obscenities... Bear

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-07-27 08:54:16 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Personally, I am cool with whatever as long as jamming makes you (Zagdul) hit your burners and head for the boundary while shouting obscenities... Bear


I was trying to break Agony's lock on me.

MissionAccomplished.jpg

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

123Next pageLast page