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T1 production worth it?

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Viktor von Steiner
Wodka Warriors
#1 - 2011-10-11 12:24:42 UTC
I'm wondering if I should commit to T1 production or rather focus on T2, as soon as I have the skills.
I've went over some items that are popular (high volume of trade) and wasn't really happy with it. Therefore I think about going into the miner profession first, so I don't have to get minerals from the market. I understand the concept of opportunity cost, so I am not one of those that believe their minerals are for free. It seems like there are producers out there that think like that though, seeing for what prices some of the products are being sold.

What do you guys think?
Malkuth Delapounti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-10-11 12:42:15 UTC
From what I gathered online So far most of t1 is not worth it.  Best bet is to make ammunition to start off and work your capital up from that point 
j hext
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2011-10-11 12:45:11 UTC
hi there,

Yes there are many people out there that consider the cost of min's to be free if they mined it them selfs. so that is why when you look into producing stuff your self it seems your better off just mining and selling the min's.

It's just some thing you will never change. Sad
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#4 - 2011-10-11 12:48:55 UTC
Some T1 is worth it. Some isn't. And some T1 helps with T2 (at least from a supply chain perspective)

And the skills for T1 manufacture are all needed for T2.


Hmm. Might be worth playing with a copy of the database export, and the order exports from eve-central/other site. To run the manufacturing numbers and work out what makes money.

(As a side note, I made around 25 million out of making and selling Brutix. Though the price was bumped by what the goons are doing right now.)
Jessica Issier
#5 - 2011-10-11 13:11:45 UTC
One word: rigs
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#6 - 2011-10-11 13:27:41 UTC
There is plenty of money in T1. Play around with my calculator (in sig) and you should find plenty if places to start.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2011-10-11 14:20:05 UTC
Hello Viktor von Steiner,

In my time there was good profit in some T1 production. Just don't expect that you will find the good products without any research. If that would be the case, everyone would do, resulting in smaller or none profits after a while. But if you do your research, then you still should be able to earn good isk.

In the past you were able to profit from ammunition and capital ship production (counting freighters also as capital ships), but you have to do some research if you want to see if you can still earn a bit money with that.

Gladly the community made various useful tools which can help you tremendously with your research. As a start you maybe want to have a look at the EVElopedia which contains a lot of good stuff!

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Taedrin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2011-10-11 14:44:22 UTC
T1 profit margins are USUALLY very slim. However, there ARE profits to be made with T1.

1) Location, location location...
- Selling a wide variety of T1 goods in low-sec can net you a good profit. Because supply is so limited in low sec, you can easily charge a hefty margin. The only problem is the lack of demand, which means you can easily saturate your market if you pump too much money into the system. Also, GETTING your goods to low sec can be very dangerous.

2) 1% of a billion is still much greater than 10% of a million:
- T1 manufacturing is best done in bulk. Provided you do a bit of research and have a well diversified portfolio of blueprints, you can expect consistent profits. Many of these manufacturers set build orders for a month at a time. Here, it isn't the profit margins which are sought, but the amount of gross profit per manufacturing slot per day. This is a prime example of "you need ISK in order to make ISK", as you need lots of capital in order to make this happen.

3) Connections can make you a wealthy (wo)man:
- The main problem facing T1 manufacturing are tight, or non-existent margins. It goes to show, then, that the cheaper you get your minerals for, the higher your profits you can expect to see. Try to convince people into selling you their minerals for less than they are actually worth. This could be scamming, or finding mineral suppliers who are unable/too lazy to do their own hauling. This could also mean finding undervalued ore and refining it for profit.
Viktor von Steiner
Wodka Warriors
#9 - 2011-10-11 15:13:46 UTC
Looks like I haven't looked deep enough yet, Rigs is something that I haven't even considered, thanks for the tip Jessica.
In general my plan is to start off with ammo, then modules and later ships due to the initial investment (I have like 5m liquid ISK right now, I started playing a week ago) and more important the skills necessary to move higher volume around in new eden.

Phantom, danke for reassuring me I'm on the right path. :)
Taedrin, would you start moving goods into low-sec with an industrial (I can fly iteron mk3 right now) or rather something else?
Eve Tycoon Inc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-10-11 16:23:40 UTC
Have a look at this list ->
http://www.eve-market-guide.com/manufacturing.php

POS towers and some modules are good. Rigs are good.

Profit ranges around 100-200k isk per h, on the other hand invention gives you 300-600k isk per h,
Tyollo
Prision Break Inc.
#11 - 2011-10-11 20:06:52 UTC
When I was first I made an agreement with some producers and T2
RAM provided for them and some other items to invention.

Buy cheap ore via purchase order for a few scattered regions
usually no movement. It was not a big profit but worth the
work.
Carthag Tsimpo
Property Industries
#12 - 2011-10-12 16:29:00 UTC
Be aware!

Even though you might find minerals cheaper than say Jita, don't use those lower prices to calculate your profit of your production. You could in many cases just haul those minerals to Jita and sell for a profit. Manufacturing out of those minerals will in many cases only repackage that profit into specific items, that may be slower to sell, with only a small profit for the manufacturing step.

Instead, find good locations to sell your stuff and think of how to do efficient logistics to supply the market where there is real profit from turning minerals into goods.
Lukriss
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-10-12 16:51:27 UTC
Carthag Tsimpo wrote:
Be aware!

Even though you might find minerals cheaper than say Jita, don't use those lower prices to calculate your profit of your production. You could in many cases just haul those minerals to Jita and sell for a profit. Manufacturing out of those minerals will in many cases only repackage that profit into specific items, that may be slower to sell, with only a small profit for the manufacturing step.

Instead, find good locations to sell your stuff and think of how to do efficient logistics to supply the market where there is real profit from turning minerals into goods.


On the other hand, if you can manufacture and sell with a profit on that station, then there's no reason to haul to jita.
Carthag Tsimpo
Property Industries
#14 - 2011-10-13 20:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Carthag Tsimpo
Lukriss wrote:
Carthag Tsimpo wrote:
Be aware!

Even though you might find minerals cheaper than say Jita, don't use those lower prices to calculate your profit of your production. You could in many cases just haul those minerals to Jita and sell for a profit. Manufacturing out of those minerals will in many cases only repackage that profit into specific items, that may be slower to sell, with only a small profit for the manufacturing step.

Instead, find good locations to sell your stuff and think of how to do efficient logistics to supply the market where there is real profit from turning minerals into goods.


On the other hand, if you can manufacture and sell with a profit on that station, then there's no reason to haul to jita.


Indeed, that's what one would call efficient logistics. My point was to give people insight in to a mistake easily done when starting out. Depending on the station one might also be interested of looking into things like turn-over rate and capital invested in slow selling items. Of course, this is something one must learn by trial and error for a new area, newbie or experienced alike.

In such situations, a good diversity in products most often help. Other ideas could be investigating in what kind of ships people are flying in the area, and what common outfits for them are. A good variety of items sold in a station often attracts customer who don't want to spend time to travel to different places to pick up cheaper items, since time is money. Considering a mission runner easily makes 15m+ per hour, 20 minutes equals a 5m loss of income. Thus, they happily pay a bit extra to get back to their mission ASAP.

The mission runners themselves also generate some minerals. With some research and customer communication, you could possibly be able to find some stable sources of minerals on place. That way, you scratch eachothers backs, sort of. Saving money on limiting transportation can be very efficient for your production isk/h.
Ender Sai
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-10-14 07:14:04 UTC
I think it's been said somewhere that t1 profit is mostly trade profit and I am a firm believe of this.

The t1 market is highly, highly saturated because its easy to get into and most t1 items will only be used for a short period of time if they are not destroyed.

Take say, tank mods for carebears;
t1 -> named -> t2 -> faction.

So the t1 get dumped pretty quickly and there may even be cheaper named versions available. Not to mention the hordes of "my minerals are free" industrialists out there.

The biggest benefit of t1 though, is doing as some other poster-dude said, making a 1% profits on your birrions. As a trader the more isk you get the more difficult it is to make returns on all or most of that isk.

Making 100% return on 1 misk in a day is really easy, making a 10% return on 100 misk in a day is another matter (with trade that is). Depending on your "obvious trader genius omg epeen epeen".

So the best application of t1 industry is really to augment existing trade endeavors because then as a trader you don't have to wait for your buy orders to fill (faster, more predictable isk turn around) and you can use your trade knowledge to get the minerals on the cheap.

Obviously from a pure industry side t2 invention is much much better because you can quite easily make a profit by buying mats on sell orders in say jita, doing your invention, building your mods and then selling them onto buy orders in Jita and then still making a profit.
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-10-14 18:12:00 UTC
I do station trading, but when I build up excess at one station, I haul to the next hub.

The problem is my freighter can haul A LOT, so I find extra to haul. I typically manufacture ammo/caps/etc. I fill up my freighter first with my manufacturing, then I fill with my excess station trade crap, then I use minerals as my "filler".

This way when I make a trip in my freighter, I have it packed with the best margin goods, then filled with minerals as unused storage is wasted profit.

My manufacturing rule of thumb for consumables is I run 48 hours jobs, then I sell at the station with the best margin, then I make my next batch. If my first batch isn't mostly consumed yet, I move the new batch to the next highest margin hub. Rinse and repeat until I either need to refresh a sell order with more, or if they're not moving, I stop producing that item and start on my next profitable item.

Another thing to think about for manufacturing. My freighter can only haul 300mil of trit, but I can haul billions worth of ammo. So even if manufacturing doesn't really add value to my minerals, if I can buy minerals lower at my current region, convert into ammo/etc, I can move more value in a single trip.

I may go from 10% profit down to 8% profit, but I if my cargo is worth 600mil instead of 300mil, I can increase my net profit.
RC Denton
Shazaam Industries
#17 - 2011-10-14 22:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: RC Denton
My $.02:


  • Build stuff that goes boom alot. If you're building things that don't get destroyed often then there's likely little demand for it
  • Look at selling your stuff in more remote hubs such as Rens etc. Jita is pretty saturated so the margin is very low or even negative for some goods.
  • Get researched BPOs. Buying BPCs usually eats up your margin in the BPC price, and non researched BPOs are not going to turn a profit
  • (boneheaded) Get PE to 5 so that you are not wasting anything more than you have to. Profit margin in t1 production comes from how much you can reduce wastage.
  • Build ships and ammo, t1 modules are for the most part useless in terms of making a profit on and better used in a xerox for invention.
  • T1 production can be a good way to increase your margin on t2 goods since you need the base good to build the t2 equivalent. It's not a huge increase but every little bit matters.

Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
#18 - 2011-10-15 16:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Estephania
Some ppl just don't know basic math, or don't understand the concept of making profit. That's why T1 production is hardly worth it. Strangely enough that goes from ammo manufacturers to capital manufacturers (which are expected to be smarter). Some buy orders on capital parts are below cost of minerals that are required to manufacture them. It never stops to amuse me that those orders are still fulfilledBig smile
Aluka 7th
#19 - 2011-10-17 11:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Here is the list of T1 stuff you can produce:

1.Ammo - focus on laser crystals of L size and mining crystals
Ammo has very low profitability.
Missiles, projectile and hybrid ammo and cap. booster charges are already too cheap because they are outlet for miners.
Miners convert part of their mining supply to dirty cheap ammo so they can sell more minerals overall.
There is some money in trading ammo if you buy in trade hub -> sell in mission hub (places where there are many mission runners like COSMOS constellations).
Mining crystal use only nocxium but are very big per unit. So its good to bring or buy locally nocxium and use BPOs/BPCs to manufacture on site near system where miners are.

2.Power and capacitor related - RCU, MAPC, CPR and CR
Reactor Control Unit gives extra power for cruisers and bigger ships, while Micro Auxiliary Power Core is better for extra power on frigs. Most setups lack power so this modules go well and sell well.
Still capacitor is parameter that is modified more often then power. And modules that affect capacitor recharge rate give best results. That is why next items are profitable to manufacture, Capacitor Power Relay (Best way to get extra cap. recharge for armor tankers) and Cap Recharger.

3.Shield related - Mag.+Heat Amp, Inv. Fields, SPR
Good number of shield tankers rely on active hardeners so its no wonder first 3 items that go well are Magnetic Scatering Amp. & Heat Dissipation Amp. (EM and TM resistance mods for shield) with few Invulnerability Fields in the mix.
Also passive tankers use mods for shield recharge rate so Shield Power Relay is very common item that sells well.

4.Armor - MAR and Energized Membranes.
Small armor repair systems don't yield enough profit per unit so you need to push large amounts. Also many new players doing missions in their frigs seed market with cheap equipment of small size therefore avoid anything with small in its name.
On other side of spectrum we have BS pilots and Capital ships pilots that by flying expensive ships show they have money so Tech 1 items that have T2 counterparts don't interest them. That leaves us with Medium Armor Repairer as profitable item in many regions and sometimes in trade hubs.
Also trend in armor tanking is to favor passive over active tanking which gives signal to every industrialist that Energized Membrane range will be in demand and although they fluctuate in price they are mostly profitable.

5.Hull - Damage controls, cargo expander.
Damage control is part of almost any setup. While cargo expander are used in industrial world a lot.

6.Turrets & Bays - Foreign turrets, damage mods(MFS, HS, GS, BCS aka. BCU).
Don't manufacture native turrets, like lasers in Amarr space. T1 turrets are second outlet for miners so in every regional hub there is a load of cheap basic turrets common for this race. Manufacture turrets of other races, but check for profitability.
Also on same note you can find some of four damage mods profitable in your region so check - Magnetic field stab, Heat sink, Gyrostabilizer, Balistic Control System for profitability.

7. Drones - sentry and EC-XXX.
These drones are used and lost a lot and there are ether high skill req for T2 version or there is no T2 version like EWAR drones.

8.Scanners - Probe Launchers and Analyzer/Codebraker/Salvager
Those are mainly Cosmos/Exploration/Mission oriented items. Scan probe launchers are used by PvE people to find exploration sites; And in those sites, pilots use Analyzer/Codebraker/Salvager. On the other hand Recon probe launchers are used to find ships of people that search Cosmos/Expl. sites. So as you see there is probability that you will sell salvagers to both of this guys.
P.S. Scan Probe Launcher and Recon Probe Launcher are not used as a weapon so they don't need launcher slot. They can be used on any ship with enough CPU. Also Recon probe launchers are used in PvP to find ships in space. Salvagers are also used in places where pretty explosion happen so lots of market there if you find unsupplied stations.

9.Rigs - all
These are low margin, profitable and easy to transport but require greater investment in salvage materials and competition are people with high manufacturing skills. Still if produced/sold near secondary hubs like Tash-murkon, Ourvole... good money is to be made.
Aluka 7th
#20 - 2011-10-17 11:29:17 UTC
I would recommend that people fresh to manufacturing avoid Tech 1 ship production.
There are few issues/details about ship production.

1.Small volume can be produced per day per production line
Battle ships (BS) - 6 per day.
Cruiser (C) - 9 per day.
Frigates (F) - 18 per day.
(x1.25 with researched P.E.)

2.BPO prices -> use BPC to test water
For anything bigger then frigate use researched BPCs (10run researched copies for BS cost 10mil or less so that's <1mil extra to count in per battleship). Only when you have production going for some time and specific ship sells well you should invest in BPO and get it researched.

3.Materials
Biggest problem is material supply. Even for cheapest BS we are talking about 30mil of Tritanium, 7mil of pyerite, 2mil of Mexalon, 500k of isogen, 200k of nocx, 30k of zydrine and 10k of megacyte per day per production line (that is 400000m3) AND that climbs to 3x the amount for the best BS. So check if you can buy that locally without raising prices on the local market to much or you can transport but it will cost you.
On the other side getting materials for frigates is easy (for everyone) and they are sold everywhere for small profit and if you count in mentioned fixed production limit of 22pcs per day per production line there are better ways to use that production line.

4.Manufacturing location <-> sale location
Second problem is production location. Good station with enough minerals in vicinity attracts manufacturers so finding good station with enough free production lines is hard because you still want to be relatively close to sale points. Ships are quite big to transport so best solution would be place with free slots, lots of minerals and lots of buyers... I wish you good luck.
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