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Barge Fairy Tale

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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#561 - 2012-07-26 18:20:32 UTC
Sarik Olecar wrote:
I noticed you neglected my reply, so I shall repeat:

Its negligible to mineral prices. They might spike for a week due to market speculators but your ganking doesn't really affect them.

On the other hand, for the minors that due get ganked, the lack of ehp on these ships is a huge issue. Maybe the macks tank is a little overboard, but beforehand they were battleship-sized frigates. You just couldn't tank them effectively without all lvl V's and a boosting orca.


So why'd they increase the HP to ridiculous levels instead of simply giving them the ability to fit a tank at the expense of yield, just like everyone else in the game has to find some balance between tank, utility and damage yield?

Is it because miners only know what "modulated strip miner II," "mining laser upgrade II" and "medium cargohold optimization I/II" can do?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#562 - 2012-07-26 18:23:05 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Ganking as a whole is broken and a mindless mongoloid idiot activity.


first you talk about "abloo gankers are telling us how to play the game"

now you're telling gankers how to play the game

gankers are obviously mongoloids who can't figure out any of the more complex parts of the game, like mining

"f1-f3, move ore to orca every 5 minutes, refine with refining alt, haul to jita" is something so complex that a ganker couldn't figure out in a lifetime, unlike the sophisticates who mine



Actually what are you complaining about?
You can gank those mining barges so what's your problem? -because now you will not make profits from those?
Seems some dev just posted a few pages ago that ganking wasn't intended to be profitable, so you just used a broken/badly implemented mechanic.
Things get rebalanced and you can still gank, so again where's your problem?

brb
Danny Diamonds
Fabricated Reality
#563 - 2012-07-26 18:23:17 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Sarik Olecar wrote:
I noticed you neglected my reply, so I shall repeat:

Its negligible to mineral prices. They might spike for a week due to market speculators but your ganking doesn't really affect them.

On the other hand, for the minors that due get ganked, the lack of ehp on these ships is a huge issue. Maybe the macks tank is a little overboard, but beforehand they were battleship-sized frigates. You just couldn't tank them effectively without all lvl V's and a boosting orca.


So why'd they increase the HP to ridiculous levels instead of simply giving them the ability to fit a tank at the expense of yield, just like everyone else in the game has to find some balance between tank, utility and damage yield?

Is it because miners only know what "modulated strip miner II," "mining laser upgrade II" and "medium cargohold optimization I/II" can do?



I am just guessing here, but I am willing to bet they chose this route to avoid "Creative" use of said Exhumers. Giving them more slots to fit a tank or more yield may have other implications (using one for tackle?). Just a guess, nothing more.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#564 - 2012-07-26 18:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sarik Olecar wrote:
On the other hand, for the minors that due get ganked, the lack of ehp on these ships is a huge issue.
The lack of EHP on my Crow is a huge issue for me… Cry

Also, I want it to cost 10bn to blow up my Nomad.

Danny Diamonds wrote:
I am just guessing here, but I am willing to bet they chose this route to avoid "Creative" use of said Exhumers. Giving them more slots to fit a tank or more yield may have other implications (using one for tackle?). Just a guess, nothing more.
Creative uses are what makes the game great. The only thing they said they wanted to avoid is having barges compete with industrials in carrying stuff, and the use of ore bays solved that issue.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#565 - 2012-07-26 18:26:23 UTC
After looking at the new ship stats... CCP you messed up.

The Hulk is fine as it is in TQ. It could fit a decent tank and be unprofitable to gank.
Hell it could tank rats in Null. Its good enough in that department. Maybe it could use better fitting options (CPU/PG), but it does not need more HP.
The Covetor IMO just needed more PG/CPU so it could be in the range of the Hulk for tankability.

The Mack/Ret could use a little tank buff so that they passed the Hulk base, but not as much as they got. Ore bay is good though, IMO.

The Skiff/Proc have needed the most help. The tank on them is fine (a little high but if they were the only ones with massive tanks, I would not have any issue), but their ore bay is pretty insane as well.


The reason the changes are bad.
As it stands on Sisi, unless you plan to be afk mining ice for a really long time, there will be no reason at all to fly anything other than a Hulk/Cov (based on skills for which one).

This is the exact opposite of the stated goals (to make the other barges potentially valuable). All you've succeeded in doing is make an afk barge that tanks well (Mack/Ret) and an at the computer Barge that tanks well (Hulk/Cov). Unless you plan to mine in a level 4 mission, there is no reason to use the Skiff/Proc.

The ships are too close together in their stats.



If I were doing this...

All ships would have the same base yield (being able to fit 3 strip 2s).

The Hulk/Cov would be the only ones that got a yield bonus (or getting a significantly higher bonus for yield than the other barges), making them the choice for mining a lot of ore. They would have close to the tank they have now on TQ (better fitting options, especially for the Cov), and an Ore bay about the size of their cargo bay.
They are meant for fleet mining ops so they don't need a lot of space.

The Skiff/Proc would be the only barges with tank bonuses. Their tank would be close to what Sisi offers, with fitting options for more. Their ore bay would be very close to the amount the Hulk/Cov has, if not the same.
They are meant for mining in hostile areas (either solo or in a group). Examples: HS during a war dec with some support, low sec with support, null sec either way, sleeper sights.
They would also have a higher agility than the others, on par with a cruiser/BC (haven't decided yet).

The Mack/Ret would be the perfect solo miners. Their tank would be greater than the Hulk's (not as much as Sisi though), with better fittings than now on TQ. Their ore bay would be about the same as a jet can (made even so that at max yield, unbonused by Orca/implants, no ice is wasted).
Its purpose is solo mining. Or afk mining for those who do such things.

All three classes would be unprofitable to gank (Hulk would need to be fit for tank rather than yield, but that is a choice up to the miner) but would not step on the roles of the other.

Also all ships would have a special cargo hold that could fit at least 3 of each mining crystal. This would only be able to fit mining crystals.

All ships woudl have close to the same cargo space. About as much as the Hulk has now.

All ships would have 50m3 drone bay. That way they could either go with 5 lights combat and 5 miners (or some other Ewar combo) or 5 medium combat for low/null ops.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#566 - 2012-07-26 18:28:16 UTC
Danny Diamonds wrote:
I am just guessing here, but I am willing to bet they chose this route to avoid "Creative" use of said Exhumers. Giving them more slots to fit a tank or more yield may have other implications (using one for tackle?). Just a guess, nothing more.


hint: they don't need more mids to fit a better tank, just a slight bump in CPU and some grid.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Sarik Olecar
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#567 - 2012-07-26 18:29:05 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
So why'd they increase the HP to ridiculous levels instead of simply giving them the ability to fit a tank at the expense of yield, just like everyone else in the game has to find some balance between tank, utility and damage yield?

Is it because miners only know what "modulated strip miner II," "mining laser upgrade II" and "medium cargohold optimization I/II" can do?


There is still plenty of room for that balance. Its just the buff to there raw stats is so huge that you can't see it. Perhaps CCPs new vision for mining barges is for the average exhumer to have 50K+ ehp. Maybe they see what I do, which is a reason to use them in more dangerous space. I know I'd be a lot more willing to mine in low if I knew I could survive long enough to for my corpies to come help if I got jumped, instead of popping like a wet tissue (which honestly, if you jumped into a mining op wouldn't you primary the hulks?)

My guess is this is the first step towards a total rebalance of industry and an attempt to push people out of empire. Its the same with alchemy, don't bite there heads off until we see the whole picture...

Hows my posting? Call 1-800-747-7633 to leave feedback.
Dave Stark
#568 - 2012-07-26 18:29:24 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:


If I were doing this...

All ships would have the same base yield (being able to fit 3 strip 2s).

[snip]

All ships would have 50m3 drone bay. That way they could either go with 5 lights combat and 5 miners (or some other Ewar combo) or 5 medium combat for low/null ops.


they do have the same base yield after the change.

and they all have 50m3 drone bays after the change.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#569 - 2012-07-26 18:30:59 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:


If I were doing this...

All ships would have the same base yield (being able to fit 3 strip 2s).

[snip]

All ships would have 50m3 drone bay. That way they could either go with 5 lights combat and 5 miners (or some other Ewar combo) or 5 medium combat for low/null ops.


they do have the same base yield after the change.

and they all have 50m3 drone bays after the change.

Yeah I was being thorough. Didn't want to leave anything out else someone assume that I forgot something.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#570 - 2012-07-26 18:31:31 UTC
Sarik Olecar wrote:
There is still plenty of room for that balance. Its just the buff to there raw stats is so huge that you can't see it. Perhaps CCPs new vision for mining barges is for the average exhumer to have 50K+ ehp. Maybe they see what I do, which is a reason to use them in more dangerous space. I know I'd be a lot more willing to mine in low if I knew I could survive long enough to for my corpies to come help if I got jumped, instead of popping like a wet tissue (which honestly, if you jumped into a mining op wouldn't you primary the hulks?)

My guess is this is the first step towards a total rebalance of industry and an attempt to push people out of empire. Its the same with alchemy, don't bite there heads off until we see the whole picture...


Outside of hisec, gimping a Hulk's yield to fit a tank is pretty silly considering that you're screwed whenever your tank "matters."

In hisec, there is only so much damage that you can be dealt before CONCORD comes in.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Danny Diamonds
Fabricated Reality
#571 - 2012-07-26 18:33:56 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Danny Diamonds wrote:
I am just guessing here, but I am willing to bet they chose this route to avoid "Creative" use of said Exhumers. Giving them more slots to fit a tank or more yield may have other implications (using one for tackle?). Just a guess, nothing more.


hint: they don't need more mids to fit a better tank, just a slight bump in CPU and some grid.


True for the Hulk, but not all of the Exhumers. One of the goals of the re-balance is to make ships within a group all have a well-defined role.

Just adding some grid and cpu to all of them would not solve their lack of individual roles.
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#572 - 2012-07-26 18:35:58 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
So... the moral of the story is that the Big Bad Wolf has gone from being a windbag to a crybaby?



Nope, this Big Bad Wolf will probably go back to ganking haulers. (until Crimewatch kills that profession off)

And there are always Tengus to pop.

But Exhumers will likely be off the menu.

Sure, there will be the odd holdout 5 or 6 man dessie team. But really, the last (and ONLY) credible threat to miners in high-sec has been largely removed. Most gankers are sharp enough to realize that spending 300M for a 'chance' to pop a 180M ISK Mackinaw is an abject waste. Orcas are rarely attacked as well - same principle. No drops + massive EHP + relatively cheap cost = waste of time.

As for the AFKer and bots, while being like cockroaches (they NEVER go away) - at least you could have fun squashing them and earn a little ISK doing it. Now - they will operate with complete impunity, 60K EHP Mackinaw, HO!!!!

Has nothing to do with 'adjusting' or 'being smart' about ganking. There is no way to 'trick' anyone in this process. (unlike ninja salvaging - which, also repeatedly nerfed, I fear is breathing its last....safeties anyone?)

Ganking is all hard numbers, proper scouting, and execution - but its clear what side of the scale CCP's thumb is on. Eventually you are simply beating your head against endless nerfs, ISK disincentives and massive EHP.

Yeah, THATS creative - force all gankers exclusively into roving packs of Catalysts. Yet other 'clever' tactics and tricks have been all been removed, by one means or another - in record time, the minute CCP discovers them....

So spare me the crybaby comments.

The Goons are right on this one.


No sir, the goons are never right. In the gaming world as a whole, they are known for massive trolling of gaming mechanics. Ever watch the youtube video of them inviting everyone to a captains deck in STO, and killing anyone and everyone who boarded the ship? lmao. yes it was a funny video and it made a lot of people mad. But ultimately, Goons are trolls. it is the nature of what they do in every game they play. In their forums, they discuss all sorts of ideas where they get some people together and go join a game only to cause trouble for laughs. They could care less about the games they play nor the everlasting impact that it has on the games they troll in. They are a virus in the gaming world. Sometimes there are positive game changes because of their actions sometimes not so positive. It all depends on what side of the fence you are on and what your perspective is.

so when people say that the shoe is on the other foot for once, it means that finally CCP is making changes to the game that actually have substantial meaning to players who mine. regardless of whether the goons support it or not. It is refreshing to see something like this happen. The only people against it are gankers who only want to gank for profit and goons + pets.

You talk about forcing gankers in to roving packs? Isn't that what gankers have been telling miners for years? "get some friends, it's an MMO. Sorry you cannot solo mine in safety anymore. Get some people together and do something about it"
lol shoe's on the other foot now. So, you wanna keep ganking? Get SOME FRIENDS and HTFU Lol



Goons in STO
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#573 - 2012-07-26 18:36:35 UTC
Sarik Olecar wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
So why'd they increase the HP to ridiculous levels instead of simply giving them the ability to fit a tank at the expense of yield, just like everyone else in the game has to find some balance between tank, utility and damage yield?

Is it because miners only know what "modulated strip miner II," "mining laser upgrade II" and "medium cargohold optimization I/II" can do?


There is still plenty of room for that balance. Its just the buff to there raw stats is so huge that you can't see it. Perhaps CCPs new vision for mining barges is for the average exhumer to have 50K+ ehp. Maybe they see what I do, which is a reason to use them in more dangerous space. I know I'd be a lot more willing to mine in low if I knew I could survive long enough to for my corpies to come help if I got jumped, instead of popping like a wet tissue (which honestly, if you jumped into a mining op wouldn't you primary the hulks?)

My guess is this is the first step towards a total rebalance of industry and an attempt to push people out of empire. Its the same with alchemy, don't bite there heads off until we see the whole picture...


This is not a push to get miners to leave Empire. High-seccers are not going to leave high-sec. All this will do is promote AFK mining and more botting. Park a mack in the ice fields with the new set up and walk away from the computer. You have instant AFK mining machine - with zero fear of gank.
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#574 - 2012-07-26 18:39:16 UTC
ORE is in the business of making isk and responding to the needs of their customers. Any corporation that doesn't respond to their customers' needs will eventually find a competitor doing it for them and will soon find themselves out of business.

The customers of ORE would have demanded more sturdy mining vessels to protect their operations after rampant ganking. ORE has responded as any business would. It made their customers happy.

Mining barge buff makes perfect sense.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#575 - 2012-07-26 18:39:17 UTC
arcca jeth wrote:
words


The gankers will continue to blow you up. You will continue to cry. It will be the same until CCP removes the possibility of aggressing a player in hisec.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#576 - 2012-07-26 18:40:04 UTC
Danny Diamonds wrote:


I am just guessing here, but I am willing to bet they chose this route to avoid "Creative" use of said Exhumers. Giving them more slots to fit a tank or more yield may have other implications (using one for tackle?). Just a guess, nothing more.



No, no, NO.

I already explained this on the first post.

Here's a little joke:

Q: How would you 'nerf the Hulk?
A: Give it an extra low slot.

If you give the average in'duhh'vidual Hulk Miner an extra low slot, he'll cram in another Cargohold Expander in and make his tank even worse.

If you give him more grid and mid slots, the large majority of miners will continue to fit them with Civilian Shield Boosters and Cap Recharger IIs.

CCP understood that buffing Exhumers with more 'options' would simply lead to most miners getting ganked. Because they make bad choices - and furthermore, feel entitled to make those bad choices. Stupiditiy is one thing. Determined Stupidity is another.

CCP came to a simple conclusion:

A mere 'Buff' for Mining Barges wasn't enough - they had to make them 'IDIOT-PROOF'.

Its not Exhumers that are broken, its 'most' of the people who pilot them. All one has to do is read some of these replies to understand that.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#577 - 2012-07-26 18:41:10 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
ORE is in the business of making isk and responding tot he needs of their customers. Any corporation that doesn't respond to their customers' needs will eventually find a competitor doing it for them and will soon find themselves out of business.

The customers of ORE would have demanded more sturdy mining vessels to protect their operations after rampant ganking. ORE has responded as any business would. It made their customers happy.

Mining barge buff makes perfect sense.


yeah so ore magically found a way to change every existing ship that they've sold the blueprints to produce

let's face it, lore justifications are bullshit

it's more like "CCP wants to remove all risk from hisec"

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#578 - 2012-07-26 18:45:17 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Danny Diamonds wrote:


I am just guessing here, but I am willing to bet they chose this route to avoid "Creative" use of said Exhumers. Giving them more slots to fit a tank or more yield may have other implications (using one for tackle?). Just a guess, nothing more.



No, no, NO.

I already explained this on the first post.

Here's a little joke:

Q: How would you 'nerf the Hulk?
A: Give it an extra low slot.

If you give the average in'duhh'vidual Hulk Miner an extra low slot, he'll cram in another Cargohold Expander in and make his tank even worse.

If you give him more grid and mid slots, the large majority of miners will continue to fit them with Civilian Shield Boosters and Cap Recharger IIs.

CCP understood that buffing Exhumers with more 'options' would simply lead to most miners getting ganked. Because they make bad choices - and furthermore, feel entitled to make those bad choices. Stupiditiy is one thing. Determined Stupidity is another.

CCP came to a simple conclusion:

A mere 'Buff' for Mining Barges wasn't enough - they had to make them 'IDIOT-PROOF'.

Its not Exhumers that are broken, its 'most' of the people who pilot them. All one has to do is read some of these replies to understand that.


Exactly. Go out right now and find a miner, scan their ship, almost 90% of the time, they'll have MLU's and cargo expanders and zero tanks.
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#579 - 2012-07-26 18:47:03 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:


yeah so ore magically found a way to change every existing ship that they've sold the blueprints to produce

let's face it, lore justifications are bullshit



Thousands of years in the future, in an age of nanobot upgrades? Makes perfect sense, actually.
Jed Bobby
Doomheim
#580 - 2012-07-26 18:47:05 UTC
lore never works out, when the Amarr rose to power didn't the Jove knock them down a notch.
Now its happening to the goonpoo